ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

It's time to get off the fence

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Emma, Feb 19, 2008.

View Users: View Users
  1. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    So go help them. Who is stopping you? :confused2:

    Mark A. Baker
  2. njwoods

    njwoods New Member

    All I can say is that we live in a very large and spiritual world. I do not think that any one religion (or in this case CULT) has all the answers. I feel we must all work together to achieve a more global belief system that does not exclude others or make seemingly ridiculous claims or bizarre tenants to follow.

    Peace, love and understanding.
  3. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Any belief system that needs to be 'global' is not one I need :) I've worked long and hard in my life not to have bizarre tenants or even be one too :) The problem here is a malicious and criminal Cult that has been pro-actively and deliberately corrupting the otherwise imperfect social order for 50+ years.

    First stop the crime, then clean up the shit. Whether people then agree on some kinds of global tenets is their problem. I can pretty much assure you I'm not interested in singing kumbaya with 6.78 billion people :)

  4. Pascal

    Pascal Silver Meritorious Patron

    Tip toe in the tulips in happy valley...

    You don't have to sing, how about playing the harp? :p
  5. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Fair point, but according to Pilot Ron started out by believing that there weren't any past lives - or rather, that incidents in this present lifetime were all that mattered. He became convinced of the existence and importance of past life incidents as a result of them coming up in session, and then running more and more of them.
  6. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Be wary of any idea that aims at world domination! - Be it politics or religion..

    It's offensive.. And you'll be told to mind yer' own business by offended people when trying to do it.

    It is a red flag if anything is.. Of a totalitarian mindset. It is the road to total control, and it's not you being in control.. (Unless I happen to be speaking to the top asshole. I won't have to be polite to HIM just yet.)

    "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." [ Robert A. Heinlein ]

    Hmm.. Religious tags apply to the above as well. Maybe even more so!

  7. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I don't think any one religion or church or cult has all the answers, either. But I've become allergic to evangelism and globalism.
  8. FinallyFree

    FinallyFree Gold Meritorious Patron

    I hope that I am helping while here. I also just reconnected with two friends, one of which is still doing her research and really needed someone to talk to. My priority is my immediate family and I am actively working on that now.
  9. Tim Skog

    Tim Skog Silver Meritorious Patron

    Why I left the cult

    This is a great post SP. The quote from Heinlein is so appropriate.

    In wanting to control people we then have to surrender some of our control over ourselves. The question then becomes, how much control is one willing to give up and to what purpose?

    Of course that is the reason I joined Scientology: to control my "reactive" mind and try to get others to see that this was the way for them to go as well. In the end it wasn't worth the sacrifice. The road to freedom became the path to slavery.
  10. By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them, 2

    This is a stellar thread...I'm so encouraged by the collective wisdom that shines on this board! Talk about a brain trust...Great work, everybody! These entries were posted on another thread, but I think are even more relevant here (sorry for the length).

    Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker

    As I've stated before, I always considered the SO a damn silly idea. As a sort of Bodhisattva Jesuit Brotherhood in sailor suits it just struck me as an obvious dramatization of case. However I've had exchanges with many freezoners on this topic and will take a stab at your questions.

    Best as I can figure those who do continue to value either the "church" or the SO value an IDEAL of the church/SO not the reality which they have become. Many see the distinction between the ideal & the reality but their views have been shaped by their own individual understandings of the group INTENTION. Where they see either the church or SO as established to fulfill "Ron's Intent", they see that intention as that belonging to the "Good Ron", not the "Crazy Ron".

    [n.b. Such individuals often are VERY FAMILAR with the distinction between the "Two Rons". They don't simply conclude that because Hubbard COULD and OFTEN did behave in an irrational and destructive fashion that therefore he was necessarily an irrational & destructive being. Many "old timers" knew Hubbard WELL, good & bad, yet STILL have a high regard for him personally. That they choose not to focus on his manifold failings is not indicative of their ignorance of those failings. Often they know more than that which has been publicly divulged.]

    In the case of such old timers, they value that which they experienced back in the 50's, '60s, and at the latest early '70s. They believed in the "mission" and were part of a creative team who were having a blast getting things done. They had a feeling of getting REAL PRODUCTS back then as well as a lot more latitude in their personal lives & thoughts. By their reports things went downhill with time, but early days were different and much more enjoyable. Things took some time before they became intolerable. By the '80s - if not before - kiss the dream goodbye!

    As such, they choose to still hold on to their own individual share of that earlier dream.


    Those individuals within the freezone who see the idea of "reforming the church" as still having merit focus on the benefit of the group camaraderie as well as the prospect of recreating large safe communities for training & auditing. They typically recognize that the organizational structure was inherently flawed but they do think it IS possible to improve upon it and make it work.

    I have to agree with them that it would be POSSIBLE. The success of the Society of Friends as a long term free association of spiritually inclined individuals is a case in point. However, from my view, achieving such with the instruments of "official scientology" would clearly require MASSIVE changes in the church and elimination of much of LRH policy in order to "make it go right". Nor would Hubbard loyalists be comfortable with such radical revision.

    I consider such discussions to be rather academic at this point. The church, although theoretically "salvageable" is unlikely to internally restructure in the necessary fashion on its own. The SO I simply don't consider viable, period. It could only exist as a parasitic attachment to a wider church. Altering it in a fashion which would benefit the wider membership of the church would alter its established character as an internal enforcement arm altogether. For me the SO is ALL about intimidation. It's sad really.

    Mark A. Baker

    SweetnessandLight replied:

    "Thanks Mark, and all other posters on this thread, for contributing the insightful comments. Very thought provoking. This topic goes to the core issue of the future survival of the "church" of Scientology, as it is currently organized as an entity. Change is inevitable for all human organizations. Future legal and financial challenges clearly will eventually force the COS to change, sooner or later, if it does not reform from within first (which doesn't look likely, but could still happen).

    At this time it is clear that what are called by the church some squirreled or altered parts or practices of the tech, (which may in fact more closely resemble original tech processes than what is currently being practiced or delivered by the church on the whole,) will survive into the future as part of freezone or independant practice. It may or may not be called Scientology. To the extent that anyone gains insight, strength, personal growth, healing or help from such practices, those practices will survive without much formal organization. People are free to practice that form of tech or not, according to their own light, as they are all other forms of mental disciplines or spiritual traditions.

    The current organized structure of the COS does more closely follow a multi-national for-profit corporation than any church I have ever seen or heard of, and as such, present time mismanagement and blatant abuses such as human rights violations, financial fraud, and the variety of illegal activities that the COS sponsors, creates and condones will surely be it's undoing, if left uncorrected. Such a corrupt and abusive system cannot stand and function for long, as it will eventually collapse due to lack of support from within, as well as from external correction from the greater community of society without.

    For those who got in or stayed in due to idealistic impulses, and a desire for self betterment, personal growth, comradeship and community service, I won't invalidate the positive experiences that anyone has had during their training and service, or the desire to continue to grow and learn by seeing if any part of the tech is still helpful for them, personally. That is your right.

    I feel great compassion for and want to also validate the experience of those who post here (or are still too squashed to post here, but are reading) who feel outraged and defrauded, confused, lied to, manipulated and abused (verbally, emotionally, physically, sexually). If there is any solace in surviving really bad experiences, it is that having survived, afterwards, life can be a joyous adventure again. Hopefully, as a bonus you will have learned something valuable from having survived your difficulties. This is where it is up to each individual to claim your own power, and co-create your own good life. Experience (both harsh and enobling) can be the greatest of teachers. As I see it, your primary job now is to heal, as fully as possible, and to help others to heal, and then go on to live the fullest, richest, happiest, healthiest, most creative, productive life possible. Living well is the best revenge.

    We are living in an ever increasing global society, a world wide community of curious knowledge seekers on many levels. It is getting harder and harder to hide the truth about anything, as time goes on and technology connects us all more and more. Keep telling your truths. The key to success is to keep communicating. (Ron didn't invent that.) Know that people are listening and learning.

    As to what will happen to the church of Scientology, and/or freezone practitioners, "by their fruits ye shall know them". To paraphrase the Bible, A tree bearing good fruit will prosper, and a tree not bearing good fruit will be cut down, and maybe used for firewood? If that happens, it will make a lovely warming light. Marshmallows, anyone?"
  11. chuckbeatty

    chuckbeatty Patron with Honors

    Dear Mark,

    I think the future of Scientology is an academic, validly academic, discussion.

    Because when we're dead, it will still be going, and it will be going for a couple reasons.

    As offensive as the totalitarian setup is, it is those disciplined (totalitarian, no arguing against) rules of the Sea Org and of the OEC policy, like the money distribution, always sending up the bulk of the dough to pay management, etc.

    Hubbard wanted his orgs and the Sea Org to survive and weather all the counter attacks from society, which of course he failed to deal with the valid criticism from day one, and that criticism will haunt ALL followers, freezone and official followers.

    I see Hubbard has set up a workable operation, I like his words, "let's get the show on the road", "keep the show on the road".

    The Freudian slip conman's "show" is the way I take it now. He put in the militaristic, Captain is boss on the high seas totalitarian galactic leader viewpoint.

    I think it best for all connected to Scientology to keep reading ALL of the critical writings about Scientology and Hubbard, until they get sick of it, and quit.

    But I agree, it'll go on. I agree it is an academic discussion, because the Scientology "show" is filled with unarguable writings by Hubbard that make it an offensive operation, but a tightwad operation, so that it "works" to sustain its tightwad self in the midst of all the crap it dishes out on people who don't toe the line.

    No reformers will be able to reform all that is foul out of it.

    And with NO superpeople being produced, the fact that "body thetans" are not provable, like "past/future lives" isn't provable, I agree with the dull academics who are not "experts" on Scientology, but they at least see Scientology as an esoteric practice that puts it in the religion category for the thetan achieving native state someday goal of the whole long Bridge to Total Freedom someday.

    I think Hubbard's green on white, and the Sea Org there to ram the green on white down everyone's throat, is the reason it will carry on in its organized fashion.

    Only if the US were to do like France or Russia, where banning Scientology is a more realistic possibility, and arguing the foul Hubbard policies in court, and holding current Scientology officials accountable for executing Scientology (meaning applying the foul green on white rules that are irreligious and law dodging and precipitate law violations by harried staffers), if only the US were to that stage, then Scientology with the orgs on green on white and Sea Org management, might come tumbling down.

    That's gonna take something though. It would take making a case that green on white violate state or federal laws in some way, and for Scientology to lose in court, where Hubbard policy is found the reason.

    I wonder if the org bank account setup is legal. Where the org FBO takes the money away from the orgs every week and sends the money up to the Cont FBO or to the Int Finance or Flag Finance Office weekly.

    I think to really make a dent in official Scientology, something that they are doing in the Sea Org management which they are taking for granted, needs to be challenged legally, and found illegal, to really knock official Scientology.

    We have so many amateur experts on SCientology, and NO book that really pools all the truth, so that interested smart minds reading that book might then get the idea of how to go after the Hubbard policy green on white setup, and really rock this totalitarian con man "show".

    Get the show OFF the road. And let things dribble around freely.

    Scientology is a therapy practice anyways, and Hubbard has got everyone using his terminology where he's conveniently relaballed auditing as what SCientology is, when auditing is just a form of therapy.

    Scientology is unregulated therapy, un peer reviewed therapy. The academies in Dept 11s are therapy training centers, and the HGCs in Dept 12s are therapy delivery sub centers. The rest of the administrative setup is for keeping the whole "show" together.

    That is so un church like, that it's taken years of redefinition and relabelling of things to pull that whole con over on the public.

    I think correctly labelling Scientology for what it really is, a therapy, and going after any legal setup aspects that are sitting there in broad daylight, like the Headley case for back wages, are the ways to go in trimming this show back to reality.

    Let the freezone people go to university and train as proper therapists, I wouldn't let any of the un peer reviewed Scientology therapists touch me with a ten foot pole today.
  12. uncle sam

    uncle sam Silver Meritorious Patron

    To Chuck...

  13. EXorcised

    EXorcised Patron

    Nashville, Tennessee. They hired some cops from a near by town who kidnapped a protester, on the day of the opening of our Ideal Org / Church, Bla, Bla, Bla and via the willingness of the media, the whole problem,(for the church), dragging an ANON physically into the church..., knocking him down, 400 yds away from the church and dragging him into the church went away. We let the fugging media and the legal system get away with injustice for the sake of society, civility, equal rights,... "love thy screwed up religions of the world".
    How long...?
    It`s a beautiful old building. Burning it to the ground would get one thrown into prison. They then open up shop across town..... Burn the USSC down. That`ll be a step in the right direction. Those are the goof balls who approved the 501:coolwink:-c3 status. Our American injustice system is the whole reason for COS.
  14. lexmark

    lexmark Patron with Honors

    I think I have made my position quite clear in that there is good and bad in Scientology and in this day of age we cannot tolerate such things as the breaking up of families.

    I have noticed that whenever I post something good about Scientology on this website I get savagely mauled by some who only see the bad side. These guys remind me of those who brought about the bad repute of Scientology such as Miscaviage, Starkey and others. Maybe they are plants trying to do what plants do.They were never auditors and thought that ethics was the final answer to handle any person. I associated with many such characters in the sea org and they are just plain disgusting.

    By far the majority of the people I associated with in Scientology are and were good decent people seeking to better themselves and wishing others to improve their life situation. I still have many such friends around the world. The lower levels and the comm course and Trs and other drills were excellent.

    When Scientology first started in the 50s many people around the world were looking for a betterment establishment and found Scientology which suited them. Scientology was basically about spirituality in that you were an immortal spirit and that you would live again after you die. That was the basic message. Today science is involved in this subject of spirituality and bringing clarity into it.

    Today we live in a world of materialism. Modern science has all but destroyed religion in the western world. The major problems on our planet are caused by the belief that it is all materialism.

    Scientology must change, the prices are too high and the disconnection policy must be handled. But it should not be destroyed.

    That's my view.

  15. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Scientology only 'exists' as anything but a harmless collection of millions of words worth of unsubstantiated blather and absurdly ludicrous tapes because L. Ron Hubbard managed to convince *some* people to swallow his claims whole, abandoning any kind of rational examination *before* beginning the practice.

    What Scientology has *become* should have been obvious in the first chapters of Dianetics. Should have been obvious in the first lectures Ron gave. But, there were enough people willing to suspend disbelief and rationality for the 'organization' to become what it is.

    But, what it is is inherent in its beginnings. The claims and promises were no better than a claim or promise that driving enough cycles in a round about will eventually lead to Shangrila.

  16. chuckbeatty

    chuckbeatty Patron with Honors

    I'd love to see some existing Scientologists somehow challenge the system, but I think Marty Rathbun's blog amongst the ex Int Base staffers and OT 7s and 8s posting there, the conclusion is the system is pretty much controlled by Miscavige, and that only leaving official Scientology and continuing Scientology in sort of the freeforall freezone/independent area, is workable.

    Due to Miscavige.

    Anyone inside official Scientology, who "stand up" will get ousted.

    So, by all means, start standing up, and possibly, as some point, but surely not right way, those who stand up might find themselves still standing inside the official movement.

    But those who are official Scientologists, as of this date, May 2010, who challenge the abuses and injustices and unfairness and inequality and overpriced services, will get booted out.

    At least official Scientologists have the internet, and they can easily find others who they can interact with, in the freezone and independent movement.

    I think the Marty and Mike Rinder group of recent top level defectors from official Scientology are correct in that David Miscavige is so irrational that Miscavige will NOT give up his power and he dominates the scene, and dissent and people who make big waves right now are gonna be booted out, straight and simple.

    But stand up, by all means, and try to fix the church of Scientology.
  17. Smilla

    Smilla Ordinary Human

    It's a creature with two faces. If you are talking to a Scientologist, and question it as a religion, it's a therapy. If you question it as a therapy, it's a religion. Actually, I don't think it's either. It is an addictive behaviour, which causes an individual to become fixated on their state of mind and the endless shuffling of their thoughts.
  18. chuckbeatty

    chuckbeatty Patron with Honors

    I'm so "open minded" (my personal "why" for getting in, and getting OUT of it all), that I like to hear everyone's views, and especially I love people to write their personal histories, whatever high or low or middle position(s) they took in the whole operation, and the aftereffects (freezone/independent) groups.

    Scholars, like William Bainbridge, praise Scientology for allowing the person to make up their own reality, or rather he remarks on that unique quality of Scientology.

    Taking your comment to heart, I immediately think of the "Individual Whole Track Maps" that used to be sort of a workbook that accompanies some "NED" (New Era Dianetics) promo for parishnioners, sometime back in the 1980s.

    Those "Individual Track Maps" that a patient (preclear) could fill out, making their "Time Track" (whole track space civilization lifetimes and incidents) even more "real", supposedly, to themselves.

    That fits Bainbridge's comments about Scientology, and gilds the lily of your certainly more accurate assessment, that this mental thinking that one did this or did that, in a past life, is what it is.

    To me, I had 120 plus preclear (patient) worksheet folders of all my crap sessions over my 27 years of therapy (auditing).

    If I were to do my "Individual Track Maps" for all my False Purpose Rundown chains, ALL of which went wholetrack (past life, supposedly), I'd certainly have a crappy science fiction novel.

    Which is another one of my conclusions.

    This is what I concluded:

    LRH is making people into their own science fiction story tellers, of their own made up pastlives science fiction.

    And then to top this "cog" (realization), I concluded that Hubbard is just like the hero "Tommy" in the rockband the Who's "Tommy" story/opera of the late 1960s.

    The hero "Tommy" gets his followers to do just like "Tommy" did, to supposedly achieve "enlightenment" (eye shades so they were blind like "Tommy", and ear plugs so they were deaf like Tomm, and their very own pin ball machine to play pinball and bliss out to enlightenment).

    Hubbard gets people doing regression, "Is there an earlier similar incident when you were ......?" and thus urge you into creating your own past lives that of course had such an "earlier similar" incident that fit.

    "If they are going to quit, let them quit fast." L. Ron Hubbard, Keeping Scientology Working

    QUIT FAST is the best advice he ever allowed.
  19. Smilla

    Smilla Ordinary Human

    You should write a book Chuck - your insights are enlightening, and you know what you're talking about.
  20. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    I am never going to have time to read all of this thread (it's up to 70 pages now!), but it is the ...



    Thank you, Emma.

    Last edited: May 28, 2010