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justaguy's (silly) questions thread

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by justaguy, May 12, 2009.

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  1. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    I pity all the kids who grew up in the SO with this mentality, at least I had empathy at home... I remember seeing a nanny blasting of on a young kid for being in effect, displaying case, for whining about feeling sick. I wish I had been sane enough at the time to shred her a new hole.
     
  2. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    To anyone out there:

    Did you ever get a cold/ the flu because someone else who had it couldn't go home and had to be "at cause" over it?
     
  3. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Hi, Justaguy,

    You asked me about my interest in Scn despite Hubbard's past actions and I mentioned that I'd take it up on this thread. So, that having been said, I'm an idea person. Ideas and methods are ideas and methods, regardless of whom created them or advertised or adapted or used them earlier on. If it works out, it works out. I also evaluate individual Scn and Dianetic concepts as individual concepts (and methods). I don't do the package deal thing.

    I find some of the most well worn and oft repeated critical/skeptical arguments to be- in addition to repetitive- hackneyed and not well thought out. A common one is that Hubbard wasn't original and that he took from other sources. Yes, he did take a lot of things from other sources. So with that in mind, then it obviously wouldn't be bad for someone to use his ideas.

    I believe in logic.
     
  4. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    I expected your response would be much like what it is. I'm too tired to reply properly, so I won't. I'll just note that I will address what you said - tomorrow. :)

    In the meanwhile, if you were ever on staff, then maybe you can help me with my other question - did you ever get a cold because someone refused to go home for scientological reasons? (If that makes no sense, then refer two posts up where I ask it better.)
     
  5. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I think I get your point about the colds. The idea was supposedly that the germs are there but one is predisposed due to PTSness. I remember hearing a staff member say that she wasn't sure if she was PTS or not so didn't want to be around the person there who had a cold. IOW, didn't want the hassle of the routing forms etc which is what we always had to put up w/ when we had a cold.

    Does this make sense- I mean, not do you agree, but is this enough of an explanation>
     
  6. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    It makes sense that you might avoid someone with a cold because they could be PTS.

    If you were on staff, what was your reaction to someone who had a cold? Did you avoid them because of germs, or avoid them because of PTS? Maybe not avoid them because you were "at cause" or something similar (i.e., somehow your scientological training/mindset led you to believe that being around the person would not get you sick because of something you'd learned). Did you not think about it?

    Even if you weren't on staff did scientology change the way you acted around infectious diseases?

    As for the point I was going to get to earlier, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. Obviously you feel you get something out of some of the stuff hubbard wrote. I'll only note why I reacted the way I did.

    It seems to me that the tech was written with the primary purpose of making money for LRH. Extricating anything useful from something like that seems difficult to me, fraught with peril and certainly not worth it. Of course, someone sucked into the cult and having had years to wrestle with its entirety probably could, and that's probably what happened.

    But all the hubbard writings I read strike me with their lack of insight, attention to detail, and cohesion. They feel extremely pseudo-intellectual to me, and I find this entirely dissatisfying on both an intellectual and spiritual level. A particularly grating example is his many bald assertions of fact which run counter to both my scientific and spiritual skepticism.

    Intellectually I can see that some could separate the ideas from their originator, but LRH comes off as an asshole and I'd rather not deal with him or his ideas. I'd much rather seek wisdom from other places. In light of that, my initial reaction to anyone who follows him, especially someone not in the cult, is "WTF?".
     
  7. FinallyFree

    FinallyFree Gold Meritorious Patron


    All the time Just. They let an HIV positive public on the Purif for about a week before *that* blew up.

    I was also part of the forced immunizations that took place at PAC Base against this new strain of measles – anyone else part of this?
     
  8. JackStraw

    JackStraw Silver Meritorious Patron

    I was on staff at a mission a few years ago and I showed up for post one night with a full-on flu. Two heads popped out of offices to ask "Do you have a cold" and "Are you sick"? I said yeah, a flu. "Why are you here?!" I'm on post. "Go home. Get well, then come back."

    It was because of that attitude I was willing to work for these people. They had some common sense! Before they came along I was used to the reverse: you're sick, what have you done to pull that in?

    Cindy and Joe Feshbach (Palo Alto Mission) were a refreshing change from the more usual insanity.

    Not trying to get them in trouble, though:nervous:

    Jack
     
  9. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well, my disagreement with it was more that this lady was worried about being PTS. This is something that comes up a lot in CofS and it struck me as off kilter, as it still does. The dictum is "all sick persons are PTS". Now, I always figured, anybody on planet Earth is at effect and can be said to PTS to the situation but Hubbard specifically mentioned that argument and said no to that. He said that anyone who was sick was PTS which would be PTS type 1 or type 2 or type 3. I think- in fact I know- that there is such a thing as PTSness. But I also am very sure that there are random events and times when the body does what the body does and that it would happen to anyone in that set of circumstances. So I always disagreed with getting out the damned routing form every time somebody got sick.


    Staff are too busy to avoid people or to worry about that. They are being worked half to death and also they figure they can override things like that.

    No.

    I don't find it difficult to extract or to review ideas. I'm not stupid. It's not a laborious process where I'm poring over old dusty tomes trying desperately to remember which one thing out of five hundred and eighty seven things did anything for me. All I have to do is remember. I know what I've done, I know what I've seen, I know what I've experienced. As for concepts that did not result in an actual experience I could remember, I either like the concept or I don't. If I do, I still keep a willing suspension of belief as well as a willing suspension of disbelief and am open to other things. I don't confine myself to Scn. This isn't rocket science.


    I found quite the opposite and I've done a lot of reading over the years in other fields and ologies.

    I believe that most people tend to find what they expect to find when they read stuff like that.

    I'm glad I didn't know about the things he did and the way he behaved as I'd surely have lost out on some truly terrific ideas and methods. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.
     
  10. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    You know, Scn used to allow touch assists on people with headaches. I helped someone greatly with one once, in fact. So I did find the revisionism interesting.

    It would be ok (in their view) to do a nerve assist where a touch assist (supposedly) wasn't warranted because a nerve assist does different things. It's a different process and the effects aren't the same. The dictum is that the touch assist will drive someone with "Int/Ext" problems further into their body or direct their attention further in but that nerve assists won't. I'm not saying I agree with that, but that is the theory.

    I do know that with/in CSing, different processes are thought to affect the person different ways so where one type may be contraindicated, some other one will be considered ok to use.

    I think with the fever assist, the person being audited is put at "cause point" and he himself starts controlling his fever.
     
  11. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    For what it's worth, I did my best to go into hubbard with an open mind. I was initially encouraged by many of the things I'd heard, but upon reading I couldn't keep that initial attitude. In fact, many of the summaries I'd read of scientological thought sounded refreshing and straightforward.

    But when I got into it, it was far more convoluted then I expected. I found a "science" without rigor, and a lot of complicated ideas with little explanation, justification, or real discussion. On a spiritual level, I didn't find it nearly as thought provoking or fulfilling as other religious texts I've read. It's possible that Hubbard is a new kind of beast entirely and I'm ruining the experience with my preconceptions.

    Also, the bashing of psychiatry, though probably deserved in the 50's, ticks me off. Someone who thinks that psychiatry, and psychiatrists, are an "all time evil of this century" and are best defined as an "antisocial enemy of the people" seems both irrational and naive. I can think of 10 things more evil than psychiatry off the top of my head, and I'm sure anyone else here can, too.

    I'm simply not willing to wade through the crap that comes out of hubbard's mouth to find the gems for the taking. Some of the stuff he says is so stupid that I find it difficult to trust anything from him. To make it worth my time, the rest of it would have to be really, really good. But it apparently wasn't good enough to help him or lots of his disciples, as they led miserable lives. If I'm going to wade through hubbard, he's gonna need to inspire some confidence in me that it's worth it, considering all the other crap I see coming from his direction. I simply don't see it .

    Which is why I said earlier that someone who already was in scientology could come out best adapting it into something useful and real. But for someone like me, who was never in, I wouldn't see the point.

    Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
     
  12. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I'm pro psychiatry (and related sciences and methods). I've never agreed with Hubbard about that. But I know why he felt as he did. Again, doesn't mean I agree with it, though.

    I can apply something like the ARC triangle or get or give auditing without worrying about eeeevil psychs.

    And as to "whatever floats (my) boat"...I'm interested in many ologies and do not confine myself to one. I regard attempts to pigeonhole me with great disdain and I'll not be shy about saying so. Just sayin'.
     
  13. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    It was not my intention to pigeonhole you. I just didn't have any answer to that one.

    The psychiatry thing was just one of the stupid things I've seen that makes me reluctant to delve further into his work. You didn't have to, but I would have to take a chance every time I cracked open some hubbard as to whether I'd encounter something good or more, well, bullshit.


    Back on topic. This is to any former staff/SO:

    Were the rice and beans really that bad? Besides the fact that you had 'em every day. Were they bad, for example, the first time you had 'em? It seems hard to mess up rice and beans.
     
  14. JackStraw

    JackStraw Silver Meritorious Patron

    Interesting... I've never seen "the dictum...that the touch assist will drive someone with "Int/Ext" problems further into their body..." before. Do you know where that comes from?

    That a "nerve assist does different things" I also don't see. As I recall (and I certainly can be wrong-it's happened before:eyeroll: ) both processes are of the type to get the body in better comm with itself, freeing nerve channels, and unblocking "standing waves" in the nerves, thus helping the body heal itself. (We do NOT treat illness, dammit! We don't!!)

    Yes, they are certainly different methods, but, isn't the goal of unblocking those standing waves the stated point of each?

    Then, saying you can't do one on a headache but the other is ok, I just see as a cop-out, a work-around, as both would miss the actual target (source of headache.)

    I still love a good NA, they are wonderful. I'm less enthusiastic about TAs-never had a particularly "F/N, VGIs" EP with a TA. ymmv.

    Jack
     
  15. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    It came out in the 80s.

    Yes, I think assists are very helpful but I also know that they are just "assists". They do not take the place of healing and medical treatment, they're meant to assist with healing as an adjunct. I get the impression that some critics believe that it's meant to be a substitute for medical treatment and I'm wondering if perhaps more churchies are using it that way than I'd thought, thus supporting that particular charge.
     
  16. justaguy

    justaguy Patron Meritorious

    This is a quote from chat:
    Besides the fact that we're probably dealing with multiple OT7's, can anyone further enlighten me on this conversation? Is there anything to suggest that we are composed of BTs? What about this mocking up business? I find it all very confusing.
     
  17. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    To mock up is to create. Scn posits the idea that people create their own aberrations. It's very Buddhist.
     
  18. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    It might help to understand one of the more common 'apologies' for the insanity of the OT Levels; 'you don't have to *believe* it; you just have to *Run* it.'

    This is a 'save' invented by people who actually *have* realized the insanity of Ron's 'Data', yet who clammer desperately to the 'workability' of The Tech. It's also a Scientology Crime called 'Tech Degrade', which, among other things, forbids even conceiving of the idea that Ron might not have meant *exactly* what He said and, quite literally.

    In your case, since you only 'read' the Scientology materials, you were not infected because you did *not undergo the necessary Mindfuck of RUNNING them*.

    Thinking about a swinging watch won't convince you that you're a chicken :)

    Zinj
     
  19. Kutta

    Kutta Silver Meritorious Patron

    In my few years in SO at St Hill, I only ate my lunch at the Stables (the lunch venue for SO) once. The beans (no rice) looked and tasted like sewerage, just a pig's swill of brown beans boiled to a sludge, no seasoning that I could taste. I never went back. Lunched mostly on coffee and cigs and occasionally something more tasty from David Gaiman's little shop.

    I am sure it wasn't always so bad. Some cooks would know how to make beans and rice edible.

    Some St Hill UK SO berthing was at Stonelands, which is where we had breakfast and dinner. We had a great cook, Mick, who was able to squeeze baked potatoes and cole slaw out of the beans and rice budget quite often. It was a relief to get some greens.
     
  20. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Justa, this (chat quoted) is misinformation or misduplicated information.

    I used to bother correcting this sort of stuff but it just got me accused of being a scn'ist.

    Forwarding this sort of thing is what makes current scios think that OSA is right when they say critics are misinformed idiots.