ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Keeping Scientology Working and OTIII Evaluations

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by lionheart, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Keeping Evaluations Working


    Scientologists, whether they are in the CofS or FreeZone, appear to have one thing in common in that they don't think OTIII is a code-breaking evaluation.

    When I left, part of working through my doubts was to make a point of finding out what OTIII was in order to judge if I was missing out on anything valuable.

    In those pre-internet days, the only non-church source that I knew of was Kaufman's book "Inside Scientology". So I read it and it struck me immediately that OTIII was a code-breaking evaluation. It was radically different to the more open, less evalautive tech of the lower/public levels. So I concluded I was missing nothing valuable as I certainly wasm't interested in having Ron tell me specifically what was the cause of any case that I may or may not have.

    LRH OTIII evaluations
    • Your body has degraded beings, called Body Thetans attached to it.
    • These BTs are the cause of your case at this level.
    • You can detect these BT's by looking for pressure points in and around the body. A pressure point indicates a BT or cluster of BTs as the cause.
    • These BTs are also formed into groups called clusters. You have BTs and clusters of them and they are influencing you.
    • These BTs were degraded by being shipped to earth 75 million years ago by someone called Xenu, who deposited them in volcanoes at specific locations and blew them up. These thetans were then gathered up by electonic ribbons and implanted at either Hawaii or Las Palmas with images and concepts in a sort of movie theatre for 36 days.
    • Your OTIII case (overwhelm) is handled by running these BTs, that are attached to you, through this 75 million year old incident.
    • If that doesn't handle the BTs influence on you, you run the BT through a much earlier incident involving a chariot, a cherub and a sudden flash and snapping noise.
    • This is your only hope and your only chance to handle your case and reverse your dwindling spiral.
    • This data is dangerous and will cause pneumonia and death if contacted before your case is set up to contact it.
    • If correctly set up you can safely navigate this "wall of fire" thanks to the above LRH discoveries/evaluations.
    • This is the explanation for the current state of individuals and society in this sector of the galaxy.
    • You have to run this data exactly as instructed by Ron's directions or else you are doomed for eternity.

    These are all things that LRH tells you about OTIII and about what to run. Why would any scientologist not see this as an evaluation as to what to think about their "case"?

    If one were publically told lower down the grade chart that a case phenomenon was caused by and resolved as above, one would have no difficulty is seeing it as an evaluation.

    For example if we were told on Grade II that every case must be run on an early overt from 50 million years ago of having squeezed an apple so hard that its pips popped out reducing the innocent apple to a pulp. that every case had this overt, that every case had witheld the overt, that every case must run out this O/W on the "cider rundown" in order to be free from the effects of cider, we would have no difficulty in recognising this as a code break evaluation.

    Yet OTIII is argued by its advocates as not an evaluation! Huh? One can only assume that a person must be so overwhelmed that he doesn't see the evaluation and suggestion involved in Hubbard's "tech breakthrough"!

    But seriously, overwhelm is probably the key to this. A hypnotist knows that he can induce attention fixidity by directing a person's attention on one thing to the exclusion of other things. This trance is a sort of overwhelm that excludes other thoughts, ideas and observations. Once overwhelmed by this attention-fixing trance, the hypnotist can implant ideas and concepts (positive or negative) and determine behaviour patters without the subject realising that they have been told what to think, see or do. They will think the idea or behaviour is self-determined.

    Hubbard was an expert hypnotist - according to those who knew him.

    Hubbard, through the vehicle of scientology, directed our attention. He repeated certain things over and over (as in the repetion of KSW) until we "knew" scn was the only ever solution to our "case". He let us know throughly that there was a mysterious, dangerous explanation to the current state of civilisation (he even publically evaluated the date as 75 million years ago). He let us know that getting through the "wall of fire" was the only chance of overcoming this and overcoming the overwhelm involved.

    He repeatedly directed our attention to these things, and hinted/suggested at the explanation in his posters, lectures, book covers, etc.

    In this way he fixed a scientologist's attention on OTIII. He overwhelmed/fixated us with the overwhelming concept of overwhelm.

    He made sure we were "suggestible" or "under" his hypnosis with various tests and teasing "wins" that go under the general term of lower level scientology. Many dropped out, because they didn't buy into the evaluations/suggestions presented at lower levels.

    This didn't bother LRH because he was sifting out the suggestible subjects, just like a hypnotist does. He only wanted the suggestible, because he only wanted slaves who would do what he wanted. So he wanted those who were less suggestible to leave! PTS/SP declares, ethics cycles, word clearing, success story writing, etc are the techniques he used to sift out those who were less suggestible. "If they are going to quit, let them quit fast" KSW.

    So in this way and using repetiton and the carrot of "wins" to encourage deeper belief, he selected his subjects for his ultimate hypnosis. He got his overwhelmed, fixated, suggestible slaves.

    If you were found to have "certainty" on the scientology tech, to have qualified for the ultimate secret, the ultimate solution of the OT levels, you were allowed on. Where you were given the ultimate hypnotic suggestion as outlined in the bullet points above. And because you were proven to be a good hypnotic subject, you didn't notice the hypnotist's hypnotic commands, which in this context we are calling "evaluations".

    Because you had bought in to the many earlier suggestions and the source-ness of LRH, you found that BT's and incidents and dates, etc would read on the meter, because you had allowed LRH's overwhelm and suggestions/evaluations into yourself.

    Similarly you don't notice the "evaluations", just like a hypnotised subject thinks the suggestions are self-determined, you also think the data of OTIII as you see it, is your own. It is "real" and the meter confirms the "reality" of it.

    You explain away the cognitive disonance of accepting LRH's data and simultaneously thinking of it as your own, you explain that contradiction away by saying the OTIII evaluations are just guidelines, parables, metaphores. Or you argue that whether the data is true or not, you get "wins" from running it. These are all just justifications for not noticing what Ron did.

    The stated EP of OTIII is freedom from overwhelm - the actual EP is overwhelm and unthinking acceptance of Hubbard's commands. One could even argue that the influence of these supposed BTs is replaced on OTIII by Hubbard's influence.

    And Ron, the hypnotist, thus fulfilled the ambition of his affirmation "men are your slaves" and he produced his army of Sea Org and "OTs" who replicated his personality so that his personality would live forever and smash its way into history, as per his affirmations.

    Is OTIII an evaluation?

    Look at the bullet points above and imagine a stage hypnotist saying those things to a member of the audience that he has selected out as suggestible.

    This is how and why scientology "works" and how it is kept working - it is all explained by Ron in "Keeping Scientology Working" - we just didn't notice what he was really saying! It was a good stage trick that Ron pulled on us!
  2. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    People who study the OT III data apply study tech, just like on any course. You write essays, do demos, and do Clay Demos, to make the data acceptable and real to you.

    Very FEW members walk out of the OT III theory courseroom thinking that it is all a metaphor, or analogy to something else. Most folks simply accept and believe what they are told. It does fit in with other data studied from earlier books and sources (demon circuits, nature of a being as a composite entity, etc). They accept everything you describe above. Possibly a few think to themselves, "well, I don't know about this, but I will give it a try". Then it gets "results", not necessarily because any of it is "true", and then they accept and believe.

    One of the biggest tricks of Scientology is getting you to accept and believe something because it seems to get a result. But, what may be actually getting the result is not necessarily from what Hubbard describes.
  3. Björkist

    Björkist Silver Meritorious Patron

    The real problem is the tendency of a large % of people to just accept things because they come from a "reliable source" (like Fox News or an anonymous poster on the internet).

    Sorta like, if I said someone was OSA and you just accepted it without really knowing...or if I said a big invisible man (penis included) made everything in 7 days (168 hours) and you just accepted it.

    The Xenu story isn't the first time this has happened and it won't be the last.

    The problem isn't the Xenu story or the Jesus story or's a human being so gullible that they fall for any old bullshit that's shoved at them and repeated and/or tortured into their psyche. (although depending on the extent of the torture, I can somewhat understand capitulating, if only to get the torture to stop)

    Sadly, certian individuals and organizations take advantage of this unfortunate trait. Hell, we even have a couple of people here on ESMB who try to take advantage of it. (and are quite successful with the weaker thetans in our midst)
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  4. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, and the trick Ron used was to allign help-flow "wins" from the low level simple communication processes of the grades and Dn regression therapy with his noble goal of a world without insanity, etc.

    Then he used repetition of unproven "facts" as in KSW and trance techniques like objectives and TRs and staff deprivation to make the subject more suggestible.

    These three elements of wins, trances and repetition produced a subject who Bjorkist describes as someone who "just accept things because they come from a "reliable source"" with Ron set up as the reliable source.

    So they do their study of OTIII and trot into session to find the BTs that Ron told them they would find. And the BT's run the incidents that Ron said would be there.

    Hey presto they find them and it works just as Hubbard's magical, hypnotic trance said it would!

    Ron is confirmed as Source and his influence replaces any influence that he said the BTs had had on the PC. Overwhelm by BT's is replaced by overwhelm by Ron. Ron has his slaves and he smashes his name into history, as he intended!

  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Incorrect conclusion.

    I think it would be more accurate to state that a large segment of the scientology community understands that to some degree every communication is innately evaluative but that it is not necessary to accept a given statement as true in order to understand what is being communicated. This certainly holds with regard to III.

    Mark A. Baker
  6. FinallyFree

    FinallyFree Gold Meritorious Patron

    Question from the Ex who was never Clear on OT:

    If the BT's are the thetans that were sent here by Xenu - what are we? I thought that "we" the thetans with the body auditing out the BT's - if the BT's were the "degraded theatan's" that Xenu sent here and shoved down volcano's etc, etc. .... where did "we" come from?

    Oh holy Xenu my head hurts now! Is that a BT?

    Seriously though would an OT answer for me?
  7. I love you guys for thinking about this, and talking about it with each other...keep it up!
  8. CornPie

    CornPie Patron Meritorious

    Wins, Trances, Repetition -- The Road to Body Thetans (BTs)

    OK, let me see if I'm duplicating you here, but more concisely:

    I think you're saying, the three elements necessary to getting people up the bridge:

    wins, trances, repetition
    wins, trances, repetition
    wins, trances, repetition

    scientology weeds out everyone who, didn't buy into the evaluations and suggestions presented at lower levels.

    'Customers' must just accept things, because they come from L ron hubbard, the so called 'reliable source'.

    So when they do OT3, they find the Body Thetans (BTs) just like Ron said they would.

    I have not seen scientology 'packaging' disclosed this way before. Anybody care to add to, or take issue with it.

    I realize you said a 'whole' lot more, but these are the points I picked up on.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  9. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    It is not the case that an individual MUST have personally experienced the "inc. II implant", or similar, for such to have an effect in present time.

    The only person who ever could or should say what a pc/pot has actually experienced is the pc/pot himself. In my experience even he shouldn't be too quick to rush to judgement on that. :coolwink:

    The odd thing about "entity case" generally is that it can be a bit confusing to an individual. A lot of the confusion associated with entity case is similar to differentiating between an original object and multiple reflections of the same or similar object. "Spotting the source" alone tends to "blow a lot of charge" and thereby reduce the experienced sense of confusion. Subsequent addressing tends to bring out and reduce any likely reasons the confusion might have occurred in the first place.

    Mark A. Baker
  10. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    my current conclusion is that the guys who don't reject OT3 but can't accept it either.....but still feel loyalty or affection for Ron, are stuck in cognitive dissonance.
    They can't make sense out of it so they find something to do with it so that it does not interfer with their Ron and scientology attachment.
    Most of them flounder around, avoiding, altering, talking about "entities" theorizing, discussing BTs versus "spiritual dissonace etc ad insanitum.

    Pierrot's vesion of CDS (Cognitive Dissonance Syndrome)
    is particulary creative. He found meaning in it. A code.
    Atually have you ever been with a really paranoid person - everything is a "code" which they understand but is out of sync with reality. Not trying to attcak Pierrot there - just saying you can project meaning into anything by assuming the environment - or information is a code for something else.
    Pierrots code story is great because it gives him a nice win.
    He managed to crack the code. Others who don't manage to do that have "missed something" All the significance deliberately packed around OT3 ---the spritual epic, the danger, the journey, etc, it is all brought to a nice sense of attainment for the code cracker. I say be careful when you think you're the only one who really knows what it's about. That's what Hubby used to think too.
  11. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Compare Mark's statement above, with how Wikipedia evaluates the CofS reaction to public discussion of OTIII:
    In the relatively few instances in which it has acknowledged Xenu, the Church has stated the story is a religious writing that can be seen as the equivalent of the Old Testament—in which miraculous events are described that are unlikely to have occurred in real life, assuming true meaning only after years of study. They complain of critics using it to paint the religion as a science-fiction fantasy.

    Mark appears to be copying the CofS reaction to public discussion of OTIII

    He appears to be:

    1. Dispersing the specific subject (evaluation on OTIII) to a generalised subject (all communication is evaluative)

    2. Relegating the specific info given by LRH on OTIII as insignificant whilst still largely running the level as per the same info.

    3. Invalidating the opinions of non-scientologists because they have not studied the data given by LRH deeply enough to hold a valid opinion.

    So I don't think Mark has conclusively disproved my original contention: "Scientologists, whether they are in the CofS or FreeZone, appear to have one thing in common in that they don't think OTIII is a code-breaking evaluation."

    On the contrary I think his reply above proves my contention.
  12. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    You got it!

    Hey, we could tag on this. I could waffle and expand and waffle some more, you could summarise! :)
  13. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Was that suposed to be an answer to FinallyFree's question? :confused2:

    Mark, do you think BT's lived through Incident 2 as described ny Ron?

    Do you think any PC's or pre-OTs lived through Incident 2 as described by Ron?

    Did any thetan live through anything even remotely similar to Ron's description?

    Were any thetans transported to this planet by Xenu?

    Were any put in volcanoes and blown up?

    Were any then captured on electronic ribbons and taken to implant stations.

    Were any thetans subjected to R6 implants about religion, etc as described by Ron?

    A simple yes or no is sufficient for any of those questions. Do you believe any of the above things as regards any beings at all Mark?

    I think it is your opinion as regards these specifics that would be of interest to us, you being a FZer who routes people to various FZ practitioners. This would give us some idea of what belief system you might be routing people into.

    It's not really your attitude to what the PC should believe that I am interested in, so much as what you believe Mark.

    You claim to "understand what is being communicated" by Ron in his Xenu/BT/Implant data. What is it that you understand is being communicated?

    So come on, open up and tell us what you believe is true in LRH's OTIII data.
  14. Scientology is no different than any of Hubbard's other science fiction. All of Hubbard's science fiction is dated, full of holes, and contains inaccuracies, Scientology just happens to be a little more ridiculous than most of his other science fiction, it's more of a tragic space comedy
  15. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    That YOU have a TON of bpc on III. :)

    Mark A. Baker
  16. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Disagreement does not imply "by-passed charge".

    The road out of Scientology can be a very long one.
    And, it seems, some people never get themselves out of that trap.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  17. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    Lionheart, Kudos! That is one of the best posts ever elucidating what the cult is really all about! It really brings the whole subject of scienhypnotology together. Thank goddess I never made it beyond the "survival rundown" while I was involved in that goofy cult. I do not have any past lives. I am living my one life. Never lived before. Never will live after this life. Hubbard was a psycho. I'm glad his ideas no longer have an influence on my life.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  18. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    Immaterial. OT III is a drug hallucination of Dr. Hubbard. His mad lunacy got the best of him. So-called "Incident II" never happened. It's a hallucination. Of course you too can hallucinate, agree that it did happen, and then even make it read on an e-meter. HubPhart's "mutual bad experiences stick thetans together" is an abject lie. There are no "thetans" as hallucinated by this pretended human. And besides, it's love that keeps us together.
  19. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Sheesh! :duh:

    A pathetic attempt to dodge the questions in my post. It is worthy of David Gaiman or Tommy Davis!

    Caring that new people don't get duped by a drug-crazed psycho like Hubbard and caring that those already duped start to see through the con is so "woggy" and "banky" isn't it Mark? and clearly shows how stuck in implants I am! :roflmao:

    So, that's a pass on your reporter TRs and PR handling hat but a flunk on being a human being! :omg:

    This is the last refuge of a scientologist to stifle discussion. A scientologist ultimately stops communication by saying it is the person's case speaking. This is what you have done here Mark, rather than discuss specifics and answer questions.

    Your posts have, it seems to me, entirely proved the points I made on my original opening post and has also proved that you, a self-confessed FreeZoner router, handle discussion of OTIII in the way Wikipedia describes the CofS handle it.

    The other posters around our one-way discussion (me to you with avoidance in return) seem to have sussed it out, so I'll go quiet on this for a while, the words already written on this thread speak for themselves. :coolwink:
  20. "you say tomato, I say tomahto" "you say avoidance, I say communication"

    avoidance, communication ... it's not too hard to convince yourself they are one in the same, if you indulge yourself in Hubbard's Tech long enough.