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Keeping Scientology Working and OTIII Evaluations

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by lionheart, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    And when people do not know what to make of the delusional plot line they read when they start OT 3, but decide to soldier on anyway, they give power to delusional items called BTs by "auditing" them. You have wins and F/Ns because you mocked up BTS and even communicated with them. Now that is a way to give a piece of your imagination real power. But it's important that you did not just talk about the weather. You needed to negotiate with these mocked up entities as though they were not you. Schizophrenia anyone? Now that is giving over a piece of yourself and or YOUR mind to a product of your mind.

    Isn't that what the problem was in the first place? Identifying self with a mind-concept of self?
    Now you have done auditing to solidify the idea that your self is all split up with other selves who have their own identity problems. Frying pan into the (wall of) fire.

    Are you saying well that's ok because OT 3 actually sorts all that out? Well yes, until you find that ron goofed again and these other selves also have drug cases. Etc.

    You finish OT 3 not really knowing what these things were because you did not buy ron's plot line. Confusion anyone?
    Don't worry. Ron always knows how to solve that. Just Give you a stable datum. You need to do NOTS or, insert here, anything the C/S tells you to do.

    Scientology is the science of knowing how to know (lets not be coy) "in the fullest sense of the word">
    But everyone finishes OT 3 NOT KNOWING wht to make of rons plot line and many not really knowing what those BTs really are - hence the creative very flexible paradigms that can be blabbered on about, trying to guess what they might be and what is their true nature, source, capabilities etc.

    As I said, you will get a new stable datum...maybe that will lead you to the an$$wer.
  2. Scientology is best described as a hamster wheel. You first buy into Hubbard's con game of spiritual freedom and then spend the rest of your life going from level to level trying to removed the non-sense he filled your head up with. It only ends when you decide to set off the hamster wheel and take back your life by embracing sanity once again. The saddest part of Hubbard's con game is there are people even in this thread who have not yet come to the realization that Hubbard's truth only exists in the imagination Hubbard created for them.
  3. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron


    My words are quite clear. You are simply squirrelling them, like you squirrel scientology.

    I have nothing else to add on that, my words stand. I've clarified my intention behind my words. Interpret them how you wish, it doesn't alter them. I have no part in your interpretation, it is a game you are playing.

    One thing I observe is that playing the game of squirrelling what I said is time spent not discussing, electronic ribbons trapping thetans and implants controlling what they think, believe and feel.

    So about these volcanoes ......
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  4. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    I could equally say if you are not "EFFECT", what are you? Do you choose for yourself what to think? what to allow in your life?

    Can you say, control or cause what will happen 100 years from now? next year? next hour? next moment?

    Are you "at cause"?

    Can you actually say with certainty what will happen this next instantt? Can you even say what your next thought will be? (apart from deliberate thought exercises, of course, I just mean in daily life)

    Are you "at cause"?

    When you open your eyes are you not effect? Do you not recieve the view? The fantastic sunset?

    When you open your ears are you not effect? Do you not recieve the beuatiful voice or the awesome music?

    Isn't receiving effects equally as wonderful as creating them?

    A challenging concept for a scientologist is "the highest purpose in the universe is to receive an effect!" :happydance:

    Ron said the highest purpose was to create one. How do we know this? Did we just not accept it as we became scientologists and stopped examining this to see if it was true?

    I'm not saying cause does not exist, of course one can cause things. But the goal of "being at cause" is an ego-trap. One is becoming Hubbard's ego which was stuck on being cause and resisted effects.

    "Being at cause" is a contradiction in terms. "Being" is neither cause or effect. they are illusions. Being is being.

    So I would repeat your question back to you "If you are not "CAUSE", what are you?"

    Look at that outside of what Hubbard told you. It's an invitation. See what you see.

    I would say a "consideration", as Hubbard uses it, is simply a belief. Drop the scientologese. Ron re-defined the word "consideration" to mean causative thought. So without the scientologese you are saying "a causative thought creates something" - "a causative thought is a causative thought" it is gobbledygook, we just don't notice that, because of Hubbard's Newspeak (ref Orwell's 1984 where he explains about re-defining words to alter thought and action)

    "A consideration creates something in life" is just simply like saying "a thing is a thing".

    A thought is just that, one can believe it is true, one can believe it is false. A consideration is something thought. To consider means to ponder upon, to think about, to evaluate. Ron twisted the meaning in his effort to stick you "at cause".

    What is "spirit"? What is "a spirit"?

    What is "static", what is "a thetan"?

    I was responding to Gadfly's satements about nothingness and thetans.

    I didn't say that people/spirits are nothing. You've interpreted that I said that, but I didn't. Or certainly I didn't mean to convey that thought.

    Ron's axiom defines life as a static and he defines static. Somehow, mysteriously he then creates this mini-static called a thetan which can be stuck to electronic ribbons and implanted in some sort of space opera movie theatre! Huh? :confused2:

    I'm just pointing out the inconsistancy in that.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  5. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wonderful! Wonderful! Literally full of wonder! :happydance:

    I knew this was where you were at, which is why I took apart your previous post. I knew you wouldn't mind.

    To be mundane after your marvellous words....

    I find that talking to scientologists within the framework of scientology just reinforces the scientology think.

    Of course talking to them outside the framework probably causes resistance!

    Using scientology to criticise scientology, ie pointing out the contradictions within the subject itself (such as pointing out Ron "solved" problems by inventing more and more "solutions") is a useful device for deprogramming the Hubbard programming.

    In my opinion explaining life using scientolgy concepts just validates the Hubbard cult-think.

    I really resonate with your realisation that you had no clue about life really. That happened to me when I started to drop the Hubbard indoctrination.

    It is both scary and wonderful!
  6. Ted

    Ted Gold Meritorious Patron

    Certainly! :D
  7. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Yeah! SEX!!!

  8. NeXTep

    NeXTep Patron with Honors

    SweetnessandLight, that is also the way I think. :yes:

    When he wrote Dianetics his primary purpose was to make some money but then it developped its own dynamic and he had to go along with it, of course never forgetting the money aspect. But in any case Scientology grew beyond what he was capable to manage and so went completely out of control.
  9. He's not the first conman to be taken down by his own con game, but what's mind blowing is people still to this day ... try to legitimize it as something more than just a con game he created in order to use people to help him obtain a set of self servicing goals.
  10. Pepin

    Pepin Patron with Honors

    I'm pretty sure I asnwered this already.

    Yes! I am always at cause.

    Yes! I am always in control no matter who I give that control to

    Yes! I am making everything up

    No, Hubbard did not suggest any of this to me (bad assumption)

    Yes! This knolwedge IS by direct observation
  11. NeXTep

    NeXTep Patron with Honors

    Well I don't necessarily perceive it that way. Yes, if you look at mainstream media it definitely seems as you say. Humanity has been pretty much shaken in the past few years with one catastrophy following the other and extreme fear mongering from the media. How many apparently deadly diseases and end of times scenarios were let loose on humanity in the past 10 to 20 years, yet mass consciousness has withstood pretty well so far and that speaks for itself. However the current trial and tribulation (swine flu) is one of the toughest ones and will prove in which direction humanity will head.
  12. What catastrophies are you referring to? The only recent one I can think of is the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami and that was already five years ago.
  13. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Nope, I didn't mind.

    The problem with any subject dealing with the realm of the mind or spirit is that the words, definitions and terms rarely relate to anything any two people can point to, like objects in the shared physical universe of mutual experience. While we do share the physical universe, we don't share our mental or finer energy worlds, although we might very well have similar things going on with these mental and other "invisible" realms.

    Yes, I agree. Talking within the confines of any specific nomenclature and subject, to point out contradictions, is very useful.

    For me, some of my greatest realizations came when I read a few good books on general semantics. The subject really gets one to look at just what IDEAS and CONCEPTS actually are, and to what degree these ideas and concepts have so LITTLE to do with the things they claim to define, explain, represent or describe. This is easy to understand when words and ideas refer to objects or situations in the shared physical universe. But, it gets VERY strange indeed when the words, concepts and ideas begin to examine, describe, explain and refer to things from the invisible realms (mind, imagination, attention, concentration, awareness, etc). Concepts such as soul, mind, thetan, theta, postulates, imagination, concentration, etc. It is not that these things may not exist in some way, and to some degree, BUT what are any two people actually talking about when they pretend to have a conversation about such things?

    I don't doubt that these invisible realms subsist of entire unique universes for EACH of us, and ANY system trying to enforce commonalities and similiarites in these realms is inherently bogus. The ONLY valid "system" would get one to LOOK INSIDE (understanding that "inside" is a relative term). I mentioned somewhere else that practitioners of magick must create his or her own unique set of symbols, and that the magickal system is unique for every person. People dig out these old grimoires and magical rites from the 13th century, failing to understand that the IDEAS were valid ONLY to the magician who concocted the symbols, correspondences and system. In a very similar way, Hubbard's "bridge" may have had much more to do with him (especially OT III and above) than with anyone else!!!! The severity of this statement needs to be truly fathomed.

    Yes, talking with ANYONE within their conceptual frame of reference reinforces their paradigm. But, there must be some common ground of agreement of terms if any communcation is to occur at all. For instance, when I talk to the 7th Day Adventists at a local store, I know that the term "God" is LOADED for them. They have an abudant variety of significances and meanings attached to the idea and word "God". I am aware of their conceptual framework. They are not aware of mine - they are entirely stuck and trapped within their own belief structure. So, I use the term, "the author of all that is". Or, "that which underlies all that is". Or, "the seemingly amazing intelligence that forms patterns out of chaos". I use different terms to point out other possible aspects of the apparent "creative source" they call "God". I "agree" with them, but not in terms they are used to, and I stretch it as far as possible to get them to see a bit outside of their overly restrictive belief paradigm. I am not trying to change them - it is fun to loosen people up a bit. In fact, I accept them and love them JUST AS THEY ARE!

    I am the happiest, most serene, confident, relaxed and "in PT" than at any earlier point in my life. I don't "think" much, nowhere like I used to. And, I have let go of so many concepts and conceptual frameworks. Sure, I can play with ideas, and discuss the theory of Darwin, the nature of the strong particle forces, advanced differential equations, or the sociology of belief involved in the three religions stemming from Abraham, BUT I understand all of that as simply playing with concepts. I have, to a large degree, become "insouciant" (a term I discovered from Hubbard).

    But yes, part of it all was REALLY confronting that so much of what I was thinking with, and talking about, was just utter arbitrary assumed nonsense. I can understand why Meher Baba just decided to stop talking, and did so for 40 years. On a certain level it is all nonsense. Buddha said pretty much the same thing. Keep thinking - and keep not knowing. The two are largely mutually incompatible. All belief systems and structures must go - if you are to go anywhere on some spiritual path of value. I believe that!!!:D :lol:

    It was a bit frightening to just jump in the ocean, with no life preserver, and go for it. Some of that was jettisoning all belief systems and convenient frameworks of understanding (thetans, considerations, factors, etc). For me, on a certain level the words sound good, they resonate on some level, BUT REALLY, in all honestly, I have NO FUCKING IDEA where I came from, where I am, if consideratons "created my universe for me", or where I am going. I do have some opinions, but they are held entirely in a temporary mode, able to be changed at any time if and when new observations or understandings require that they change. And, I will NEVER conduct myself gung-ho, balls-to-the-walls as is required in Scientology and other fanatical systems of absolutist belief.

    Honestly, it is great to just BE HERE, with no pretense, and with no tacked on belief structure - in a very real sense, as innocent as a new born baby.

    Simple and serene.:thumbsup:

    Thanks for giving me the opportunity to look at this and express it in words.:happydance:
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  14. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Ok, so do you know what your thought is going to be in the next moment? And the next one? and the next?
  15. I was going to ask him if he was actually delusional enough to believe he already knew what the next thought popping into his head would be, but I see you already asked him.
  16. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Cool! :)
  17. NeXTep

    NeXTep Patron with Honors

    Well Chuck I am real happy for you that you didn't hear about the other ones. :whistling:
  18. Pierrot

    Pierrot Patron with Honors

    For quite a long time I envied people who were there in the 50s, 60s or like you in the 70s. Then, since I read the stories related by Old Timers, I'm glad I got into Scn beginning of the 80s. Just after the whole of the Tech was rounded up, and just before it all became like a McDonald in the spiritual or mental field, with the Big Mac at upper levels, and if one complained one was foreced to eat a Big Mac with a salad.

    I know what you're talking about. I lived that from the inside. And could write also a book about it.

    When I "joined" they proposed me to sign a 2 1/2 yrs contract - me as Qual, studying the whole Tech was part of the deal. When shown the Bridge I asked how long to go from one end to the other, that OT thing up there. They said 2 1/2 years. I was naive - 2 1/2 = 2 1/2 - so I signed.

    To cut the story short - I ended up in the Bookstore. Having time, I did read the books, running the processes as I got along, despite what was saying my friend in Qual. At one point they said I need to do the Clear check. So I sold one of my guitars - a Goldtop Gibson LesPaul I played with as a teenager in all kinds of bands. I got that Clear Check in Paris.... all the hours were burned by word clearing delivered by a student. Then it took 1 minute to tell me about what I already knew.

    At this point all my inner Red lights went on!

    As I was making more money selling books that they were making on GI - I was to become a Reg. I had no interest in Finances, Selling - interest in money was the lowest on my list. I thought Karma is really mean proposing me the toughest post. And I took the challenge soon becoming a very good Reg.

    There was no time for study as a staff member, especially as a Reg. But I knew since the "guitar LesPaul" incident I had to know the rules of the game. So I continued to read, study on my own all the policies pertaining to my post. They didn't like it much - for instance, I never allowed any of my prospect to borrow money for services, showing the policy where he writes "never borrow money". So even though I was considered a shark Reg, all my prospects remained friends.

    I had 3 major Ethics Conditions assigned, and I still chuckle when thinking about them. The 3rd one was at the end. Friends were hurt, I wrote reports showing where the Tech principles were violated. I got thanked with a non-enturbulation order. Disgusted I left. The 2d one was close to the end of my staff contract - I was fed up being on an Admin post, I wanted the Tech. The EO from DK wanted me to become an FSM I/C or so. I refused. I said I had my OT levels and training up to Class VIII paid for at Saint Hill. I wanted to get trained up to VIII and come back to help. So I was expelled, with a funny SP declare. At this time my first kid was born and we knew Scn environment was not a good place to raise a kid - we were happy to leave and I went back to my guitars. That lasted a year till they lifted my expulsion order and I could go on studying more Scn.

    The 1st major Ethics Condition was while I was staff. I write it for Lionheart, who said he enjoyed my post about handing the OTIII materials asking for the genuine one.

    You know about the pressure of that Brithday Game, I don't need to tell you what it was when a Reg. Calls from DK, from LA, from all around pressure from the CO, staffs meetings, the ship is sinking, ... complete madness.

    So at some point I was ssigned a Low condition and had to clean-up the stairs as amends project.... Cool, there I am washing the staircase. Then I start to wash the corridor. Meanwhile - the CO had to hold the post from above. That means she was stuck in my Reg room 24/7. Suddenly the whole Org started to breath again, the staffs were smiling. On Wednesday the CO found me - "Have you finished your condition write-up? !!! Where are you in your conditions? !!!"

    I said I'm working on it, and considering all my deeds seriously. Besides - I found out the course room is dirty, and some other rooms too. And I feel I didn't contribute enough. And, don't you know, Ron says that the public image and a clean Org will increase the GI ten folds or more. If her looks could kill I wouldn't be here writing this post. Next Thursday I was back on post without any trouble. As she crashed the stat, I had easy time to plan ithe thread for next 2 months and enjoy my time. And I wasn't bothered by conditions anymore.

    A good friend told me a simlar story, years after we were both out of Scn. He was on a special contract at Saint Hill, for a year, in exchange for his Academy Levels he supervised the SHSBC course. So somewhere along the line he was assigned a low condition... as there was an epidemy of lice in the Sea Org his amends project was ... - to find out who was infested with lice and who was not. So he goes around, finds a staff "show me your head, please" examines the hair. And all those staffs were all around the place. He had to go to Stonelands, East Grinstead, ... Meanwhile the Tech Sec had to hold the post from above.

    So, that beautifull redhaired Angela finds him finally on Wednesday, "So, did you finish your conditions??? how is it going???" she was in despair.

    My friend replied "I still didn't finish counting lice, I'm working on it" - he was restored very quickly on post and never bothered again.

    I remember having a conversation with Michael Lanciai, we were friends then. Once he wanted me to join the Sea Org. "What are you going to do when you're going to be a bg thetan after OTVIII? When you're bigger than the Galaxy, you're not going to play guitar?" He was a rock singer before. I replied:"Precisely Michael - Jimi Hendrix already brought the Blues at a Galactic level. When I'm OTVIII it's my duty to play guitar". As I shifted his paradigm, he coudn't reply. SHould I say "the guitar saved my life?"

    When I went out of the CofS I had many friends who went out too. Some were in a very bad shape after what happened to them in the orgs. So - I started to audit some of them then - to get them back into Life. With that past behind. Ex-Sea Org members too. I know about the DPF, RPF, I know what they lived through.

    I understand what you mean. I will answer that in a post to Vinaire, as he has some Tech questions that relate to what you're saying here.

    Look - I didn't expect to participate in this thread for so long. But all right, since we started, I'll write more. It's just a question of me taking the time.

    A couple of weeks ago I finished making slide doors for someone I love. 12 doors, 3meters high 1 meter wide, massive oak, for 6 appartements. I love heavy physical work. Because too many sessions, to many unwanted conditions disapearing, as-isness - my body would proportionally want to take up weight.

    I love working with wood - next will be an acoustic guitar, a crossbread of a Martin with a Gibson. Then I'll build several electric guitars - LesPauls. The guys who supervise my work say Gibson, the original LesPaul maker, is doing a lousy job. So I better prepare.

    And when I will have built my first Les Paul, and play with that on stage, that will be the last cycle which will finish my past in Scientology. That Goldtop I sold innocently....


    Ok - stay tuned, I'll explain what I mean later on. We will tie the loose ends together.

    My stable datum when studying Scn, be it lower levels, or OT III, IX or XV - whatever datum I'm shown if the concept was not stated or hinted at in DSMSH or developed shortly afterwards, I consider it not true. Not true inside of the Scn paradigm, of course.
  19. Ted

    Ted Gold Meritorious Patron

    Ethics Conditions assignments are a funny thing. Much depends on who is doing the assigning. For example, your guitar picking friends should have thrown you into Confusion for even considering letting go of your Goldtop Les Paul! Your "friends" who had designs on that geetar would have assigned you, perhaps, "Normal" when they could pick it up for a song. The people who wanted the money from the sale would have assigned you "Affluence" making certain you understood it was for "the greatest good."

    I love the stories of being assigned lower conditions and simply waiting out the inevitable outcome of a senior holding the post from above. :thumbsup:
  20. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Flunked Scientology

    Being an extremely lazy retired person, I haven't read most of this thread. But I nevertheless have a suggestion...instead of Keeping Scientology Working, how about Keeping Scientology From Working. That is noble goal.