ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Jan 12, 2015.

View Users: View Users
  1. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    When I was roughly 12 - 14 years old, I was really, really into WWII history. Actually, I was into it for far longer than that, but in this period my father and I met an art dealer, who was in Alexandria, Virginia at the time. She dealt almost exclusively in paintings of aerial combat from WWII. Many of those paintings were signed, not only by the artist, but by the aces depicted therein. I was fascinated to find a couple of paintings with the signatures of Erich Hartmann and Adolf Galland. And then she dropped the bombshell - Galland himself often came to her gallery.

    Thus I managed to meet on several occasions, and briefly correspond with, a man whom Hitler had personally decorated. Galland was a likable guy. He was affable, self-effacing, and always ready to talk about aviation in the Second World War.

    Later I learned he had been involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler, and had not been shot mostly because of his propaganda value. He was sent to command a Me 262 unit - not a usual command for a fighter pilot general - in the hopes those fickle machines would kill him. When he failed to die in those jets, he took his entire command to Austria to evade capture by the Russians, giving the US a valuable asset from Germany's arsenal.

    This was my first foray into the world of morals in the shade of gray. I genuinely liked Galland. He made at least one huge friendly gesture to the US in the war, and he had soured on Hitler and tried to get him killed.

    But.

    Where was his outrage when Poland took the hit in 1939? He served Hitler well enough to become his youngest general. Was he one of the Good Guys, or not?

    I think, on the whole, not. Did he redeem himself? In my eyes, yes. But I could very well see the point of view of people who look at all of his actions at the end of the war and afterwards as serving multiple stakeholders, not least of which was .... Adolf Galland. I liked they guy. But I can see the perspective of someone who thinks he should have been hanged at Nuremberg.

    And thus we come to the point of this thread.

    There are people whose names seem to generate a fair amount of awe and respect on the boards. Some of that respect appears to be earned, in many cases. However, there also appears to be a reluctance to examine the full history and the actions of these people. Some of that, in the case of living posters, may be the result of an unspoken truce. The feuds between some of the critics do nothing except embolden the Co$. On the other hand, there are some legitimate beefs. I, myself am pretty leery of M&M until they come completely clean - as are a lot of folks.

    The funny thing I've observed, though, is certain people - especially those who have contributed to the informal history of the beginnings of the church - get a pass on their behavior. This would include, to my mind, Alan Walter, the Pilot and David Mayo. Now it looks as if this also includes Sara Northrup. Interesting...

    This, to an outsider, looks like Laffy's Kha Khan doctrine still in action. Mostly, these are people who suffered mightily at the hands of Laffy, but like Galland, not all of their behavior is pristine. It's perfectly legitimate to come to the defense of an old friend, but when that old friend has a lot of public, dirty laundry hanging out there, don't expect outsiders - or even all insiders - to bow to a desire to ignore the bad and praise the good. All humans are a mixture of bad and good, and we do them a disservice to put them on a pedestal when we are assessing their historical impact.

    Those of us who think the tech is dangerous in all its forms aren't going to cotton to anyone preaching it.

    I'll repost some posts from other threads, and have at it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  2. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Ya know....I bet your exuberant fascination with WWII is due to the very strong possibility that you were there in your most recent past life. :yes: Oh yes! It fits. I've been able to figure out that you and I are both approximately the same age, so the math works.

    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    Oh I kid the U!



    Fascinating story and I believe I get your point. This should be good. Thread might even go Grunge! Er....I mean Grudge! :wink2:
     
  3. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    I understand what you are saying, and agree.

    I do believe that some here....want to "keep on track" a push into or against or exposing Scien.....as a separate thrust....to accomplish the end goal...of alerting the most public to the Cult...and its evil.

    In that vein....threads are started ...and there is a desire to protect that thrust.

    Kinda, "all shoulders to the wheel" make the work easier kinda thing.....

    I understand this purpose.

    Just my 2 cents.

    :)

    It does bother me....trying to sort out the various factions here....and some of the various takes on the dreck.....on the other hand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  4. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron


    Well, Veda, I find your altitude offensive. Tough cookies, eh?

    You do not get to tell people on this board what is a legitimate line of inquiry or not. You only get to determine what people can legitimately ask of you.

    Let's get to my evidence for calling Sara Northrup a "piece of work":

    Bolds are mine. And we haven't even gotten to the swindle she and Ron pulled on Parsons. Do you really think she didn't realize that boat scheme was an attempt to defraud?

    Your evidence for her being an innocent free spirit is someone who was likely infatuated with her and a woman who also had a high opinion of Laffy at the time? Really?

    So that's why I phrased things in such a way as to see if she woke up or not. She was seventeen when she fucked her sister's husband, and I know a lot of messed up teens, but that's pretty messed up by anyone's standards. I realize she was sexually abused as a child, and I unfortunately know from personal experience with a variety of people close to me how that can fuck up someone's sense of right and wrong. That being said, AFAIK, none of the abuse survivors in my circle of friends has ever engaged in adultery tinged with incest.

    Her reputation at the OTO does not look like a bunch of old men jealous of Jack's young fling, it looks like people fed up with really juvenile behavior from ... a real piece of work.

    Now, could she have outgrown that? Sure, people can change for the better, especially when the get free of an abusive situation. But in that immediate period where she runs off with Laffy, she doesn't look like such a victim, does she? It's only a year or two later, when Laffy goes really batshit on her, that she becomes a victim.

    I really hope she did grow up. But it's interesting to think about the parallels of the OTO and the Co$, and to wonder what her journey out - if there was one - I mean, we have no evidence one way or another that she ever gave up magik - has any illustrative value for those trying to escape the mental clutches of Co$ training. She's a public enough figure to have a Wikipedia page for fuck's sake - so yes, it is anyone's business who is interested in this little patch of sordid history what her personal beliefs were. It's her and her heir's business if they want to keep that private, but that does not make inquiries into that area illegitimate or out of bounds.

    You are quick to jump to conclusions about her relationship with Paulette Cooper. AFAIK, the two never met, and Paulette has said that she found this letter a little mystifying, given how little contact they had. That's not really 'befriending", is it?

    Hell, I'm curious about your motives for being so quick to take offense. Other than the fact that I don't hold you in the proper amount of awe, that is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  5. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    Ha....I can see now why La Fatty had the hots for her. So Funny.....his sexual attraction to Sara. Sounds like HubTub bit off more than he could chew.....
     
  6. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think they both got a little more than they bargained for in that relationship. I can see a young kid growing up in a hurry once she had a kid of her own, and ditching all the shit she had done as an immature adolescent. On the other hand, this stuff sticks in the mind a long time (OTO and the like, I mean), once it's wormed its way into the psyche. She's a fascinating person, and if not the complete victim she's often made out to be, that makes her even more interesting.

    I'll dump the stuff on Alan Walter on this thread tomorrow - a lot of external to ESMB quoting needed for that one.
     
  7. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    Udarnik, you'd have to had seen a Cult training film about the tone scale.....and a portion of said film, with a woman writhing over a man....and the man standing stone cold still....as he ignores the woman's wiles.

    Upon reading your description of her...that memory popped up....

    Quite funny,

    In the Cult.....one is suppose to keep one's TRs IN.....and not react to such a thing as an attractive woman....or her allurements.

    So sad.

    So....FLUNK!! La Fatty!!

    LOL
     
  8. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Hmmmmmm......thinking about the OP some more Udarnik. So you befriended an old Nazi who knew Hitler. Then not too many years later you go to the Soviet Union to live. :unsure:

    Yes. It's becoming more evident that Roger is right. You are a highly trained agent who is here on ESMB with an agenda being directed from an outside source!

    :omg:


    So tell me....are you an assassin? Or are you an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqjQG-Tw9FY
     
  9. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    ......BTW, some of us happen to think that adultery tinged with incest is kinda hot. :coolwink:

    Excuse me......oh.......my Dad's third wife is at the door and she's in the mood to be naughty!!

    It's okay. She's younger than me.

    Gotta go.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  10. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    There's a grey area or fine line between discussing the subject(s) while candidly stating what one's own choices are and recommending that choice.

    Anyone who does the latter also does the former. Not everyone who does the former is doing the latter.

    Be candid and speak freely about your stance, but know the difference.
     
  11. DeeAnna

    DeeAnna Patron Meritorious

    This http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-110.html is a long, rambling letter LRH wrote to the U.S. Attorney General in May of 1951. In it, he accuses Sara Northrup of being a Communist or being under the influence of Communists.

    It is interesting reading. Interesting to see LRH "reframing" his entire relationship with Sara. Oh, and he refers to the Jack Parson's home as a "free love community". Heh, heh. Yeah, Ron, we've read about the rather wide swath you were cutting through the free love community. As opposed to being home with your wife and two children.
     
  12. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    .....

    This is what happens to my mind when I even think about Sara Northrup and whatever was going on with Hubbard and OTO in those days...it's not good. lol


    From one of those random websites you see, blink, think WTF and quickly exit:


     
  13. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Thanks HH. After reading the above about SCARABINE and the Antareans I now have pneumonia. Thaaaaaaaaanks!

    A little heads up woulda been nice!

    Lol....
     
  14. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Enquiries might be legitimate, however I do think you are too worked up about her "bad" character as presented so far. You remind me of guys who get all worked up when they see a female with sexual freedom, promiscuity, having fun - whatever term you want to use. A lot of guys just don't like that and will call such a female the well known put down words "s_ _ _ _" "w_ _ _ _" etc. Hypocritical guys who just can't stand to see a woman getting what they want. "Piece of work" seriously? Well, she could have been, I don't know, but she was living with bohemians - more bohemian than most probably with their majick etc. The sexual mores of the group were extremely loose. Reminds me of the sexual revolution, hippies, love ins, etc. She was 17!!!!!!! With guys who were older than her who were all "pieces of work" in their own ways too. Blame the (sexually active woman)?
     
  15. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is not the first time I've heard the name "Scarabine". Wasn't that Marjorie Cameron?
     
  16. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    I am posting the below information to give some perspective on her age and upbringing. I would have to say that from it, one could conclude that she did had an unstable and unnuturing upbringing in her adolescent and teen years ( maybe even earlier?). I suspect that this venture into the the world of the OTO environment at such a young age ( 15 living with sister and Parsons), this unknown territory of the spirits and sexual permissiveness, could very well have messed her up enough to set things in motion for the next 10 years of her life.

    Sara was a kid on the loose, with a mother who obviously had other things on her mind and a brother-in-law who saw nothing wrong with taking advantage of Sara and her out-of-control independent spirit while the wife was away. Encouraging her and leading her into this bizarre world of the then OTO would be considered emotional child abuse in this day and age. We must keep in mind that at age 15-17, she was still a kid.

    IMHO, by the time she had met Hubbard in 1945 at age 21, she had been an old hat at the OTO but as most of us recall, being 21 does not equate much in reality with being an adult. How many of us were suckered into Scientology in years up to even 25 and think we knew actually what the hell we were doing when we didn't? One could say that she was damaged goods by this time in 1941 but I suspect the damages happened much earlier, when she was ripe for OTO madness and Parson's manipulations.

    That she eventually got away from the heart of it and began what would turn out to be a normal life with a loving husband and a child to raise says much about her. Just saying.. for perspective
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  17. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    You guys might like Unobstructed Universe, by Stewart Edward White

    "Betty and I had first met Darby and Joan at the house of Margaret
    Cameron,
    * in 1922. With them, and Margaret, and another psychic, Mrs.
    John Palmer Gavitt* we conducted the remarkable series of experiments in
    demonstrating and verifying the "second body"--beta body, we called
    it--described in an appendix to The Betty Book. In the next seventeen
    years we had with Darby and Joan but two other contacts: once when Betty
    went East without me, and once when they visited us at Burlingame for two
    days. Nevertheless, in spite of so few meetings, and in spite of the fact
    that Betty and Joan were doing diametrically opposite kinds of work by
    different methods, the two of them had always "clicked." And they always
    felt that, somehow or another, they were destined to do more good work
    together. But they, no more than Darby or myself, realized how perfectly
    they were being trained, each in her own way, to combine their methods in
    one triumphant effort when the time came.

    *Author of The Seven Purposes.

    Margaret had red hair.
    I have read some of Unobstructed Universe and put the book down.
    I didn't know of her book Seven Purposes till I just looked for an online copy of Unobstructed Universe for this posting. It might be helpful if someone familiar with $cientology read them both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  18. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Dude, there is a huge difference between sexually active - even promiscuous - and stealing your sister's husband. While they may have been open to wife swapping, even her sister Helen thought that was swapping a little too close to home.

    There's no hint of remorse on Sara's part, only hostility, while Parson's later justifications at least hint of some remorse on his part.

    Then there is the actual behavior that led me to call her a piece of work - seeking to break up her boyfriend's circle of friends and then running off to defraud him with another guy. Slut shaming may be a hot button with you, but in this case, you're seeing it where there is none.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  19. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    ::
    Not to mention eloping with Hubbard while he was married to another. Also helped him to steal money.

    She was indeed a piece of work in the 40s at the least.

    * Oh, you said that already. :duh:
     
  20. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree, and that's why it would be fascinating to see the development of her thinking on the OTO and related subjects as she matured. She likely dropped some or all of it. That doesn't mean that she doesn't look like the crazy destructive girlfriend / boyfriend we've all seen at various times in our friends' (or, God forbid, our own) lives - at the time in question. If you were Jack's friend in 1947, wouldn't you have wanted to slap him upside the head and tell him to get away from this chick?

    I think the crucible of her ordeal with Laffy may have matured her and set her up to find happiness later in life. Wasn't it Napoleon who said that good things often look horrible while they are happening? I'll have to look it up, but that would be a typical self serving quote with a large kernel of truth from that man.