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Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Jan 12, 2015.

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  1. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    very true,

    but an auditor is defined as one who listens and computes.

    computes meaning to evaluate,

    when dianetics and scientology are not to supposed to evaluate, why Hubbard is by his books and lectures, this is called rhetoric, the art of persuasion.

    but, in the beginning, that is what the book called dianetics, hubbard says the auditor is not to evaluate, but yet he, hubbard, does by the simple definition of compute.

    For the first evaluation by hubbard is that 70% of man's illness is psychosomatic. That is evaluation. And of course clear is a evaluation.

    And, of course, dianetics handles that. LOL

    the art of persuasion, rhetoric.
  2. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    Someone I know who got "deprogrammed" by someone their parents hired told me that this is exactly what the "deprogrammer" did - got them to read up stuff on another ridiculous cult.

    They did the reading on and on, not seeing that it had any relevance as "$cientology wasn't a cult like that." And then they "cognited."

    Yes, it was a cult just like that !!!

    One less $ciloon, one more ex.
  3. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Alan W was friends with some heavy hitters. He had political clout. IMO, he'd get little or no flak if posting here now.

    It's a fact that it's not always what the person posts but in many cases who they are.
  4. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Sometimes it's an unburdening thing.
  5. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

    I did some reading about other cults as I was deprogramming. It was powerful stuff and ripped back loads of layers. I read accounts of others who had left other cults and their experiences resonated loudly with me. It really helped to broaden the picture and get my head around what I had been involved in. It also helped me decipher what the unique controlling factors were that scientology uses from the more generic cultic control factors.

    I'd definitely highly recommend people read about various other controlling cults, and stories of those that have left them. :yes:
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    In 1950, L. Ron Hubbard audited Aldous Huxley and his wife on Dianetics. In Huxley's words:

    Up to the present I have proved to be completely resistant - the is no way of getting me onto the time track or making the subconscious produce engrams... Maria [his wife], meanwhile, has had some success contacting and working off engrams and has been repeatedly into what the subconscious says is the prenatal state. Whether because of Dianetics or some other reason, she is well and very free of Tension.

    Huxley on consciousness, circa 1954:
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    The initial, and most publicized, definition is one who listens.

    Then more is added.

    It's a matter of gradients of deception.

    And yes, there are all sorts of catches and hooks along the way.
  8. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    When I first came on ESMB, Paul invited me to try his robot and I did a bit of it. It was fun. The drills were styled to ground a person, rather than the other way around. I was just coming out of a bit of a shock, having opened a part of my mind to remember my Scn past that I'd tucked away for decades like a horrible trauma (it was). I don't think of Paul's stuff as woo. The thing is, you can stop any time, or if you get bored or don't like one, you can go onto another and there's no expectations, no forced success stories, no payments, no time limits, no past life recall weird stuff (Please tell me you didn't add weird stuff since then, Paul? :coolwink:). With the robot, you can go as fast as slow as you like, put it down any time you like. I did a couple of hours with it, felt a bit better, had a particular one I liked that I did for a couple more days and then I forgot about it and Paul never nagged me, either.

    I wish all of life were that easy and you can just pick it up or put it down as you please. It's relaxing.

    Paul's Robot is about as opposite of the Scientology cult as you can get and certainly not harmful. It has the same effect as lightweight meditation drills. It's a great place to send newly outs and not the least bit addictive.
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Someone newly introduced to Scientology is likely to be shown this or a similar quote:


    The person may even be asked to look, in some form or another, and may have a positive experience doing so.

    He is then sold on Scientology, thinking that the rest of Scientology is also about looking, and looking as a sovereign being that "thinks for himself."
  10. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I found that thread very interesting to look back at, David handled it really well but other people who have been nominated or chose to create the guru persona for themselves have not always been so intelligent about it.

    David was clearly saying he was finished with the tehk, was no longer interested, regretted his part in it all and was moving on ... but a few of his followers were finding that unacceptable and wanted him to remain in the same mindset that they were/are still in.

    I tried to say something along those lines in an earlier post re AW ... it's almost as if the price these people have to pay (for becoming guru like and making money from it) is to never be "allowed" to truly move on openly (as we all can) because someone is likely to be offended by it and a whole can of new worms gets opened.

    David left ESMB fairly quickly and I doubt he felt he truly "fitted in" because he was given Kha Khan status by a few and didn't want it.

    I've no idea if AW (or even tubs hubbard) felt the same, but as one ages and approaches the end a sane person normally ceases to BS himself, if allowed to ... but some may choose to keep the money flowing in from the BS regardless ...


  11. Student of Trinity

    Student of Trinity Silver Meritorious Patron

    We're talking nothing in particular. It's a very abstract model, by design; the goal was to find out what mechanics itself, in general, says about engines, in general. (More than I expected, it has turned out.) Now that we have ideas about that, though, we are interested in what kind of real gadgets might achieve the kind of dynamics we've studied mathematically.

    We have a couple of ideas for experiments that could test our main conclusions, but these would not be useful devices. They'd take up a lab bench with infrastructure just to lift a few atoms a few centimeters. We've got a lot of writing to do now, and there's an important next step in understanding the continuum between classical engines, for which we've found a theorem, and extremely quantum mechanical engines, which literally consume fuel one quantum at a time, and do work in quantum jumps. After that, maybe next year if all goes well, I'd like to talk to some chemists. So far we have a kind of spherical cow model for combustion, and maybe we could improve it. Or maybe the abstract dynamical mechanisms we've identified could be seen in chemical reactions that aren't normally thought of as having anything to do with engines.

    And I'd like to talk to some microbiologists about cilia and flagella. Tiny little critters do run tiny little engines: they eat food and somehow use the energy to move around. How do those things work? They're probably still not small enough to fit our theory, but what do we know about the thermodynamics of paramecia? I just haven't had time yet for any lit review on the subject, which is only about as directly relevant to our work so far as architecture is to the Pythagorean theorem. Among the biologists I've bumped into at parties so far, nobody can even tell me what the internal temperature of a paramecium is.

    Is there anything that might be generally important about the difference between organic and inorganic engines? To us it's all just atoms. Or not even that. Degrees of freedom.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  12. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Yes, lol, eventually the truth is unavoidable to all, except a few actual "resistive cases".

    I am reminded of the dreaded "com lag" that Hubbard warned Scientologists about. Wanna see a serious cult com lag? Okay, then sit a Scientologist down and have them clear the word "CULT". Then have them do a clay demo of it.

    They can never demo it to a pass because as long as they are a Scientologist they can never clear the word cult! At the exact excalibur moment they pass the clay demo, they become an ex-Scientologist!


    Still no pass: Day #83


    "HEY! IT'S NOT ET, IT'S BT!"
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  13. Student of Trinity

    Student of Trinity Silver Meritorious Patron

    I've wondered about this for a while now, as a never-in. It's the one thing about Scientology that seems, from all the accounts I've read, to be both real and unusual. I've been calling it 'the auditing high'. I think it would be worth someone studying, just as a psychological phenomenon. As I think I put it here once: Hubbard did not discover anything as good as fire or the wheel, but maybe he did find something that was comparable to beer or coffee. As practiced in Scientology, though, auditing is all wrapped up with a lot of Hubbard garbage. He was trying to run a cult. What's the active ingredient in auditing, that produces the high? Could it be separated from the other stuff, and delivered more efficiently? How could people then use it?

    These are good points, but if they're responsible for a large portion of the high, then the high effect may not be easy to extract from the cult apparatus, because the ego boost and the expectation of progress are precisely the cult part. They get people drooling over the next piece of sky.

    What auditing scripts I've seen don't seem very sublime to me, but maybe I haven't seen many. In his other writing, I think Hubbard was competent — not great, but competent — at the register people associate with 'the sublime'. By the standards of great poetry, his most lyrical stuff hits a lot of hokey notes, but compared to the average guy in a bar, he had a way with words. So, sweet talk with a spiritual slant. If that's important for the auditing high, even just as a kind of foreplay, then it may not be so easy to peel it off. But it might be possible to replace it with non-Hubbard alternatives. I think a lot of writers can swing that kind of writing if they want. I'd even bet that, pretty soon, there'll be an app that can randomly generate impressively sublime little paragraphs. There are probably just a few basic stylistic tricks, and a specialized lexicon.

    I've suspected for some time that this is a big part of it. When you've been thinking about a hard problem for a long time, and then finally see a simple answer, there's a wonderful feeling. You feel relieved and empowered. But I wonder about one thing. When we're happy we smile, and I've read that just smiling deliberately can make you feel happy. What if a certain kind of relief can make you feel that you've solved a hard problem? In particular, there must be considerable relief from simply finding an excuse, however feeble, to end a long and tedious session on a win. What if that kind of excuse tends to reinforce itself by giving you a sense of having really solved a problem, via something like the happy-because-you-smile effect?

    One thing about auditing that stands out to me as an outsider, which ex-Scns might overlook because it's too familiar, is that auditing seems to take up an awful lot of time. Hours on end; that's pretty unusual. Even as a physics professor who is paid to do theoretical research, I don't actually manage to spend too many hours of uninterrupted concentration on abstract problems. I'm busy with other tasks (like teaching), and anyway my brain usually gets tired after no more than an hour or two, my attention wanders, and I have to do something else (like posting wildly off-topic rambles on an internet forum for ex-Scientologists). And I certainly don't get to spend hours focusing on myself. Maybe the human brain just gets strained in some way by prolonged auditing, and weird effects begin. Something like sleep deprivation.

    Just as an aside, about the relieved-and-empowered feeling you get from achieving an insight: in my work, I have learned to distrust this. The pattern I've come to recognize as normal, over years of trying to solve physics problems, is that I FINALLY UNDERSTAND!! something about three or four times. Each successive insight reveals that the previous one was really very limited. And the sign that I may at last have achieved the final insight (into that particular problem) is not exhilaration at all. It's the recognition that the solution is really quite simple and obvious, and the only reason it took me so long to see it was that I was pretty dumb. All I really did was slowly untangle my own stupid confusions. Real understanding, in my experience, is always depressing that way; though I can usually cheer myself up by explaining it to someone else, and seeing how it's news to them. Anyway, maybe that's why I'm ready to believe that the 'auditing high' may be a meaningless psychochemical phenomenon that isn't really about spiritual insight at all. The Eureka! sensation is illusory, in my experience, in general.
  14. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Very interesting!

    I thought about that a moment and realized that the first thing one would need to discern is whether or not that emotional/psychological element that is being "separated" is in fact a desirable state.

    Many positive human responses (smiling, laughter, feeling of joy, energized...) are mimicked under very undesirable conditions. For example someone who is stabbed or shot often feels no pain whatsoever and doesn't even realize they are seriously wounded until much later. Another example is an accident victim who goes into shock, might appear to replicate a "calm" or "serene" zen state of mind.

    Essentially Scientology sets up a creative role playing game and invites the players to use symbology, iconography and story telling paradigms to work their way through inner conflicts and stress. In parallel fashion, Christians who endlessly study the Bible and can quote the appropriate scripture (verbatim) in any challenging life situation--likewise are observably relieved by the Bible's sacred story paradigms.

    The gleam that filters into their eyes as they report what God or Jesus said is not indistinguishable from a starry-eyed Scientologist reciting the "LRH reference" that "handles everything" in the physical world and beyond.

    But as far as "HUGE WINS" go, I see it as an ever-present expression of humanity. Sudden bursts of euphoria are EVERYWHERE...go to a bowling alley, sit in the stadium for a sporting event, hit a rock concert, or drop in a sports bar when the local NBA, NFL or MLB franchise is playing. How is that any different than people holding soup cans and whooping it up?

    For that matter, how is the adrenaline-driven euphoric rush a thuggish street mugger experiences (when he steals your wallet and watch) in any way different from the "high toned" ARC gush a Scientologist experiences when they stand up and applaud a wall photo?
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  15. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Any recommendations for reading material?
  16. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    From my personal experiences with $cio cult auditing tehk it leaves a person depersonalized & dissociated from their own cognitive-emotional identity which isn't healthy at all. I think it ties in with what's being discussed and doxed on the Type 3 Psychotic Break thread. This among many reasons is why $cientology is so dangerous and why I would stay far away from anyone's Guru spin on Elcon's tehk as well.

    What is dissociation?

    Dissociation is a word that is used to describe the disconnection or lack of connection between things usually associated with each other. Dissociated experiences are not integrated into the usual sense of self, resulting in discontinuities in conscious awareness (Anderson & Alexander, 1996; Frey, 2001; International Society for the Study of Dissociation, 2002; Maldonado, Butler, & Spiegel, 2002; Pascuzzi & Weber, 1997; Rauschenberger & Lynn, 1995; Simeon et al., 2001; Spiegel & Cardeña, 1991; Steinberg et al., 1990, 1993). In severe forms of dissociation, disconnection occurs in the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity, or perception. For example, someone may think about an event that was tremendously upsetting yet have no feelings about it. Clinically, this is termed emotional numbing, one of the hallmarks of post-traumatic stress disorder. Dissociation is a psychological process commonly found in persons seeking mental health treatment (Maldonado et al., 2002).

    Dissociation may affect a person subjectively in the form of “made” thoughts, feelings, and actions. These are thoughts or emotions seemingly coming out of nowhere, or finding oneself carrying out an action as if it were controlled by a force other than oneself (Dell, 2001). Typically, a person feels “taken over” by an emotion that does not seem to makes sense at the time. Feeling suddenly, unbearably sad, without an apparent reason, and then having the sadness leave in much the same manner as it came, is an example. Or someone may find himself or herself doing something that they would not normally do but unable to stop themselves, almost as if they are being compelled to do it. This is sometimes described as the experience of being a “passenger” in one’s body, rather than the driver.

    There are five main ways in which the dissociation of psychological processes changes the way a person experiences living: depersonalization, derealization, amnesia, identity confusion, and identity alteration. These are the main areas of investigation in the Structured Clinical Interview for Dissociative Disorders (SCID-D) (Steinberg, 1994a; Steinberg, Rounsaville, & Cicchetti, 1990). A dissociative disorder is suggested by the robust presence of any of the five features.

    What is depersonalization?

    Depersonalization is the sense of being detached from, or “not in” one’s body. This is what is often referred to as an “out-of-body” experience. However, some people report rather profound alienation from their bodies, a sense that they do not recognize themselves in the mirror, recognize their face, or simply feel not “connected” to their bodies in ways which are challenging to articulate (Frey, 2001; Guralnik, Schmeidler, & Simeon, 2000; Maldonado et al., 2002; Simeon et al., 2001; Spiegel & Cardeña; Steinberg, 1995).
  17. Student of Trinity

    Student of Trinity Silver Meritorious Patron

    That's a good point. I think what it means is that in the quest for finding the 'special sauce' of the auditing high, there are two exit scenarios. One is that we find it and bottle it, and sell it online and get rich, except perhaps in Colorado, where the competing product might have us beat. The other is that we realize that the auditing high is nothing special, just a somewhat difficult way to get something that's easier elsewhere, or maybe even something that only seems good by contrast (like stopping banging your head against the wall), so give up and move on. I think that's a real possibility.
  18. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I have been thinking lately how euphoric states, even outside of scientology or even outside belief systems might not be such wonderful things or that there might be a downside. So far, my theory is that the downside is that when it happens, the euphoria gives a little shot of being beyond all the problems etc, and that when the problems return they seem worse, for having experienced temporary freedom from them. Earth looks a little bit more like hell each time you have had a RETURN ticket to heaven. Bounce back and forth like a ping pong ball. Scientologists refuse to confront the fact that shit happens and still happens, and insist they will bend reality itself to their will. The euphoric episodes in those circumstances means they will realise their true nature as a ping pong ball. If that ain't horrible enough for you it will be a psychotic ping pong ball.

    I think this is parallel to addiction - brain chemicals etc.
  19. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I do, well, some of it. I have a whole section of PaulsRobot devoted to such, which is even labelled woowoo. Look at the url of one of the modules there: From that page:


    RAW4 gives you the chance to run Reach & Withdraw on any or all of the parts that make up the four (supposed) dimensions of human existence:
    Your physical body
    Your aura bodies
    Your hara
    Your core star

    Some of these parts will be more familiar to you than others. They are explained thoroughly in the info pages on each of the four levels.

    Why Reach & Withdraw?

    It is an excellent method of getting incrementally more and more familiar with something, at your own pace.

    One difference from a more materialistic view though is that I think the realms involved, what I could refer to as one's extended anatomy (including acupuncture points, meridians, chakras, aura bodies etc) plus the whole spirit world including spiritual guides, past and future lives and the life between lives too, are real. I just label them "woowoo" at PaulsRobot because it suits my taste in humour.

    I go along with Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's famous quote,

    We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.​

  20. Student of Trinity

    Student of Trinity Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think that can be true. I believe that I may have a very slight bipolar tendency. For most of my adult life, I've sometimes thought to notice a roughly monthly cycle whereby I'm upbeat for a couple of weeks, then gloomy for a couple. Each phase has a tendency to exaggerate itself by contrast with the other, when nothing objective has really changed much at all.

    The effects either way for me are never much more than the difference between gulping an espresso versus mild caffeine withdrawal, both of which also happen to me; and all kinds of little encouragements and discouragements crop up in a month, no matter what. I can't really swear to the two-week pattern, either. Maybe if some little thing makes me feel discouraged, I just start looking on the dull side of everything for a while, and it may well take several days, on average, before something perks me up enough to flip the other way. I've never monitored the effect carefully, because it has never seemed big enough to really matter.

    I don't really believe all that strongly that I have anything more than ordinary ups and downs, with no consistent pattern. It's just a notion I keep in the back of my mind: I believe that I may have this cycle. Sometimes I remind myself, if I'm feeling gloomy, that this might just be one of my gloomy weeks. Or if I'm buzzing from distraction to distraction a bit too much, I sometimes try to tell myself that it's just the monthly manic phase, and I should really chill out and get back to work.

    A certain tendency to cycle regularly up and down, as long as the amplitude is not too large, might even be beneficial. You think big and broad for a while, take in new ideas; then you squint at them for flaws, for a while. Maybe peaks and crashes are a problem, but gentle waves are benign. So maybe amplitude is part of the subject, here; maybe huge, towering "wins" are indeed not the right goal to have, but a practice that could consistently give you a slight upward boost might be well worth having.