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Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Jan 12, 2015.

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  1. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    PM me. I'm not sure what you're looking for is relevant to what biologists are doing right now, so very few would have made the measurements you are looking for because they just don't care.

    I delved into the world of artificial muscles for a while, and in the 80s it was dominated by a guy I consider to be just a step or two above Lysenko, so not much useful was done. I hope it's moved on. I will do a lit review and see what I find.

    However, I do know some techniques, and people who use them, that could be used to find some of that data in a living cell without destroying the cell. My wife did some of that kind of stuff for her thesis.
  2. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm aware that I'm outranked on here as I have not had formal auditor training, but here goes;

    In my experience, the difference is stillness - when you're a client in an auditing session and it's going well, the mind slows down enough for you to be able to notice things (mental objects) in it that you don't normally notice, and this enables you to make new sets of connections between these new mental objects and ones you were previously aware of, which are more positive and life-enhancing. In doing so, your viewpoint on the topic you're being audited or counselled on changes and the old mental patterns you use to deal with it break up; a lot of psychic energy is then released which has been held in placein these old patterns, and that energy is the source of this euphoria you speak of.

    That doesn't happen in the case of the thuggish street mugger - there's no stillness, self-examination or reorientation of mental contents. In fact, quite the reverse, he's likely to bury himself even deeper in his web of self-justifications and cognitive dissonance in order to be able to excuse what he's doing to himself.
  3. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    One thing that Hubbard emphasized strongly (C/S Series 6) to Scn technical peeps is the importance of discharging force from the case, not merely chasing significance. Significance in Scn terminology means ideas, thoughts etc, what most people think of as being contained within the mind. A Scn auditor thinks the force is being discharged from the case when the TA (resistance) moves down. Indeed, the amount of this downward motion is totted up during a metered session and is supposed to measure how "good" the session was, and it is supposed to correlate with how the pc feels. So after a "good" session, the pc is beaming, feels great (and prime reg-fodder at that moment) and the worksheets show a "big" number for "tone arm action." Supposedly. We're talking routine lower-level auditing here: it can also happen that a pc "blows out" after two minutes in session with hardly any TA action noted.

    This "force" factor seems to be pretty much ignored in mainstream mental practices, almost as if the people concerned never noticed it.

    For an illustration here is a PaulsRobot NotTooShabbyPower (real) session I did in 2009, alternately getting the idea of No Energy and Infinite Energy, along with Rub & Yawn as needed. I did this on a meter as an experiment, although PaulsRobot sessions are not intended to be done metered. Note that I couldn't see the meter during the session. You can see F/Ns and blowdowns (a blowdown is a sudden downward motion of the tone arm) and an EP'd session. I usually run these to an EP of no more change out of the (charged) topic addressed: I think F/N Cog VGIs (floating needle, cognition=realization, very good indicators) are really stupid EP (end phenomena) criteria.

    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  4. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    For Scientologists "the tech" :clap::clap::happydance::clap::clap::clap: is an enormous totem that ascends into the sky and no one can see the top of the totem. It's very impressive to them. Without it, they believe that they, and all Humankind, are doomed. With it, they believe that their survival and well being, and the survival and well being of all Humankind, is assured, and not as mere humans but as super humans.

    This "tech" comprises all of L. Ron Hubbard's instructions to Scientologists on what to do and how to do it. The auditing part of this "tech" usually begins with emphasizing that the word auditing means listening. Great emphasis is also placed on the word, "help."

    It's not unusual for people who become involved in Scientology to do so because they want to help others.

    Both as a lead-in, or lure - and as a kind of lubricant that keeps the Scientology machine running - help, listening, and also caring, are essential ingredients.

    This seems strange because of the amoral, immoral, and predatory nature of Scientology, but it's a predatory creature that survives by disguising itself, and survives by trickery.

    Without (naïve) good people who believe they are doing good and helping, and without auditors who believe their basic activity is listening and helping by listening, corporate Scientology would dry up and only be a dusty monument. It seems as though it's in that state now, and it's well past its peak during the 1960s and 1970s, but there are still quite a few people involved.

    Recognizing their goodness and good intentions, their desire to help others and, as auditors, their desire to help others by listening, is recognizing the elements that were used to lure them, and still, in many instances, keep them in Scientology. It allows one to connect with them, and is often the first step in getting them out of Scientology.

    For those about to be lured in, attracted by the desire to help, etc., it also allows connection, and makes it possible to successfully intervene and prevent their being lured in.

    Scientology uses goodness and it uses good people.

    Goodness is an ingredient in the Scientology trap.

    Not recognizing that enables Scientology.

    That same goodness - that was and is exploited by Scientology - is what David Mayo is describing in the post below:

  5. Kemist

    Kemist Patron with Honors

    I remember reading somewhere that cilia and flagella are hacked proton pumps.

    Your best chance to get an idea about how they work would be crystallography, NMR and molecular dynamics studies of these things (alone or combined). Normally molecular dynamics is used to get a microscopic understanding of how things work, but you can also get an estimate of macroscopic properties of a system.
  6. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    In drug development we've always had issues with crystallography in SAR development because the crystal secondary and tertiary structures may not be the same as the ones in situ. There are spectroscopic techniques (I'm thinking specifically about deep UV Raman spectroscopy) that can be used in combo with confocal microscopy to get detailed information from specific organelles while the cell is living.

    Specifically, something like this or this.
  7. eldritch cuckoo

    eldritch cuckoo brainslugged reptilian

    Cilia? Flagella? Now that's enough. I had to update this ancient ESMB conspiracy "gem"... :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


    Attached Files:

  8. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Hey I like Ramen Noodles! They're awesome! :happydance:

    (But Udarnik it's spelled with an "e" not an "a" at the end. That's ok though. I know scientists aren't the best spellers).
  9. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Agreed, giving it up and moving on is the ultimate solution to the cult's psychic hold. But, how to accelerate to speeds that may escape the gravitational orbit of planet Scientology?

    The voluminous array of tech "references" could be conceived as an elaborate "interface", much the way gamers use a handset and joystick to manage their avatar's role playing on screen. The Scientologist experiences life via the filters and toggles of that game controller and with enough practice they develop a real facility, dexterity & game-craft that allows them to travel upwards through the games various "levels".

    The gamer who is low on ammo knows how to click this or that to reload, and the Scientologist likewise knows thousands of avatar-saving moves and Hubbard "references" to remedy any of life's threatening or stressful moments. THAT is where the addiction flows forth from. It is entirely counter-intuitive to break ties with a ready-made and vast set of "tools" that give one the euphoric bursts, small and large, which help overcome all of life's rough spots. In a different context, try asking a devout coffee drinker or smoker to go cold turkey and it ain't pretty.

    Add to all of this the simple fact that Scientologists spend decades polishing & perfecting their interface's filtering system so that it deciphers, buffers and neutralizes all of life's jagged shards, before they can hit him/her directly.

    What might be missed by someone who has not been in such an all-encompassing and intense role-playing game (video, paintball, high-stakes poker et al) is that the players have an internal personal dashboard and video screen that they are viewing which, although "virtual", is their reality and how they see the world. And in the case of a Scientologist, all those tech toggles are precious because without them the Scientologist believes their avatar will die before they move through to the game's highest level.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  10. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Thanks for the info, Paul.

    Personally, I wouldn't get into it, but since it is reach & withdraw, rather than a think-think process, it's difficult to see any harm in it. The withdraw bit may even help some of those who are fixated on the spiritual world or spiritual nature of things. But yah, that's pretty woo-woo!
  11. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've picked 3 points from your post. The last point seems almost
    a description of an auditing EP.

    On the second point its IMO not that the auditing scripts need be
    sublime, its that you do what is requested and this may lead to an experience like the last point I mention.

    Note that I'd read through OT 2 materials prior to doing them
    and nothing happened and I'm still puzzled why they should work.
    However my first session auditing OT 2 had a very dramatic effect
    as did all the rest.

    As for the "auditing high" It never worked for me like that. Many times
    whilst interning and on staff I'd have ruds flown, and in general I
    was indifferent to them. But those things I really got good gains from
    were processes that I was very interested in. For example I've always done well with security checking type sessions, especially the false purpose rundown. Here I was often missing sessions because of persistent F/N
    or being exterior. Until the auditor asked if I was suppressing wins. I then
    wrote a success story BEFORE every session and was able to get in session pretty much always.

    I do realize others milage may vary:coolwink:
  12. eldritch cuckoo

    eldritch cuckoo brainslugged reptilian

    Be ensured, the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster appreciates your general devotion to the noodly spirits, even though you are a pitiful heretic and worshipping Nippon's demons (of maybe Chinese origin)! May The Sauce be with you, poor misguided meat ball! :p


    Attached Files:

  13. Kemist

    Kemist Patron with Honors

    Yes, that's a drawback of crystallography. The other is that you're limited to what's been crystallized (not trivial for surface proteins).

    That's why NMR is interesting. You can keep your protein / assembly in the same conditions as they are in the living cell, so it's potentially more accurate vs actual cell conditions. But, it demands a lot more external input (computational chemistry black magic) from the structure solver to get your data, which is why it's often used in combination with molecular dynamics. NMR data is basically used to generate a set of constraints, which is used to build the model from amino acid sequence. I left drug development a few years ago so I don't know if it's been used there yet.

    The first paper is very interesting BTW. I've been taking an interest in classifiers and SVM (Support Vector Machines) recently for a completely different purpose. It's funny how the two fields I studied combine somehow.
  14. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    That sums it up nicely! I get what you're saying and for the people asserting that Scientology is "all evil" kinda flies in the face of the many good people caught up in it who thought they were helping. Like most of us were at one time.
  15. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I don't disagree but I was suggesting that even the guru's or leaders in scientology and it's indie spin offs may eventually want to face reality and get out ... but it isn't easy for them to do that due to their followers insisting that they continue the charade and it was a charade even if they believed in it at the time.

    It's only the followers (good and well intentioned as they often are) who keep scientology [STRIKE]working[/STRIKE] conning both in the cofs and the indie field.

    It was just a passing thought but it's why I don't take too seriously those still very much in the cult (indie) mindset, because they are not helping at all.

    Though David is gagged, while he was here he may have been willing (and able) to share some helpful and interesting info about "certain things" even if he had to refer just to the indie side of his story (and thus avoid the cofs gag legalities) but it would be hard, if not impossible, to do that while also protecting the feelings of his past (indie) followers.

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  16. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    As long as he's willing to take and answer questions, I don't see the problem.

    My old FZ centre started life as an AAC, allied to David Mayo's in Santa Barbara, but ended its days (AFAIK it closed several years ago) practising Metapsychology.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  17. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Sounds like there's a story there? Have you already talked about it? I would like to know more about these FZ orgs that start up and how/why they go away. I'm a little bit familiar with Mayo's group's history, but not the others.
  18. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I just felt bad for him because he was gagged by the cofs and then effectively further gagged here, the very place he could have benefited from, as most of us have done.

    I hope he's well anyway.


  19. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Just wanted to bump this thread with this post from HH. Truly insightful, should probably be its own thread.

    I have stated before that the biggest thing I got from Scientology was HOPE, which made me feel really good when I was young and idealistic. It only took about a decade for that to fade away and to see what was left in its place.
  20. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    George Fucking Dillman! What a blast from the past. And a steaming pile of horse shit. I went to one of his seminars when I was still getting in the ring on a regular basis. He was doing the pressure points on the wrist, arm and jaw to knock people out, but I noticed he was also starting into their eyes intently. When it came to me, he could not get me to fall, and I stared at him right back. I'm a welterweight, and not overly muscled, but he claimed that me and one other guy who did not go down were skinny and wiry, and therefore our nerves were not close enough to the surface to manipulate like he could the fat or musclebound guys. I didn't quite buy that one. I know that I was never able to replicate his results on my friends.