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Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Better Call Saul . . . :whistling:
  2. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Okay - TIME OUT!


    YOU! LONESTAR! Take five minutes out for a bad joke.

    YOU! UDARNIK! Penalty for reading TONE into a written post. On the bench with ya.

    YOU! VEDA! Penalty for making a play that puzzled everyone.

    Now - Udarnik, after your time out, can you please tell us which groups you're referring to?

    /derail of derail of derail of derail
  3. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Thanks to both Veda and you I have come to realize I have a joking problem. It's good to have self-appointed referees and cops. Really. They provide a valuable service in regulating the forum.

    I pledge to knock off the humor. Thanks again you wonderful ladies, Sheila and Veda!
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  4. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    There was also Gregory Mitchell and Irene Mumford's Dianasis. I didn't have any contact with it but I did know a couple of people who had and thought well of it.

    Here's some background (I'll try and improve on this);
  5. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    In addition, there was Ulrich Kramer's Mind Walking, though I think Ulrich was basically a Ron's Org "graduate" rather than one from the AACs. I've been told but cannot confirm that he was the author of the L. Kin books in the 1990s.
  6. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Self-appointed referees don't usually have the best training, qualification or judgement, either.

    Sometimes it's just fun to blow the whistle. :coolwink:
  7. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    The only one that I had heard of, way back in 1970s when I was a staffer, was Dianology.
    It was interesting to me that the young lady, at that time, got involved in Dianology before she finally got involved in CofS at the Riverside Mission. (That is reverse of most stories that I have read about.)
  8. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor


    Wouldn't Terril know about the various groups that were/are around?
  9. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I'd not heard of Theta International movement until now. It looks like its merely a name change possibly done in an effort to escape litigation on
    copyright and trademarks, see URL below. Also there is the 1992 scientology enemies list in which many groups are probably splinters
    from CO$, example:-


    Its unlikely that one could distinguish an offshoot from AACs to
    an offshoot of CO$. Mayo was the senior tech person in CO$, his
    wife Julie had previously held a very high tech position working
    with Hubbard.

    In other words the Mayo's were very "standard". A look at the enemies list shows that this "standardness" led to some 30-35 other AAC's
    being set up.

    Metapsychology and TIR could be considered an offshoot of
    the AACs and Mayo helped Gerbode with this project. This is
    probably the only offshoot of AACs.

    But then you wouldn't worry about him being as he's a qualified
    medical doctor and qualified psychiatrist. :coolwink:

    You are correct in your assumption that many of the auditors in
    the AACs carried on auditing. I know several of them. I believe many were scared into leaving this field. Even today, the day after Sundance, many
    people are somewhat paranoid about any personal info being exposed.

    Cats Squirrel raised the possibility that Irene Mumford was an offshoot
    of AACs. This isn't really so. She had entered CO$ in 1957 and studied
    just about all the available tech. Declared SP in 1982 she associated
    with the East Grinstead branch of AACs, but then went on to explore
    ideas she had re GPMs and formed Dianesis. Even Rons Orgs had a good relationship with the AACs at least for a short while but didn't like the
    what to them seemed lax attention to ethics.
  10. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    He and CBR researched together and came up with Excal.
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    EST is the only group comes to mind when thinking of 80s spinoff splinter groups from Scientology.

    They later changed their name to "The Forum."

    Pretty weird stuff. From a former member:
  12. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I was going to post a certain youtube.

    Then I thought better of the idea.

    ADDING: on second thought, why not

  13. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

  14. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yeah, looks dodgy at least in its current form. I once read Luke Rhinehart's account of an est training in New York, and found it fascinating (this was before I had any real contact with scientology). It was the first time I encountered the concept that You Create Your Own Reality.

    The jury's still out on that one as far as I'm concerned, though IMO Werner 's take on it is more promising than LRH's; it's about how you choose a context for what happens to you rather than being personally responsible for the actual events which befall you (cue Scns saying "you pulled it in").

    I think est was 70s rather than 80s btw. Stewart Emery, an est trainer originally from Australia, headed up the est organisation at one point but after a disagreement over philosophy with Werner (I believe it was the "you create your own reality" thing, though I may be wrong), he went on to form his own organisation called Actualizations.

    I''ve got a book of his somewhere titled "Actualizations - You Don't Have To Rehearse To Be Yourself"; it's worth a read. Here's his site;
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've posted a bit on this and if you want more, ask for specifics and I'll
    try and obtain them.

    It seems your main grievance is that Flo did not have medical oversight.

    It was failed medical intervention that it seems bought her to a suicidal state. Left her IIRC partially paralyzed and with lost memory. And I don't see that murder can be ruled out iether.

    No blame. I have no idea if other medical intervention would work

    At the AACs Sarge Gerbode a qualified psychaitrist was one of the auditors working there, and a highly trained class VI auditor.

    Skilled medical advice was available! If needed. And she was
    probably connected with previous medical doctors.

    Flo did the bridge to OT 5 in CO$. That is almost the complete bridge.

    Note that the Scn theory of PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect.

    Flo's son in law was the most awful person to be connected with.

    Its clear she felt CO$ could no longer help her. So she went to
    the AAC.

    It was widely considered that Mayo delivered the best tech and
    gave the best results.

    CO$ has for a long time delivered bad and even reverse or
    black tech. per reports. They have as main direction more money,
    executive C/Sing, as opposed to enhancement.

    You consider that spiritual existence is unavailable.

    So I am the opposite.

    I guess we can have conversation sometime inbetween
    these ideas. :)

    Julie delivered 5 or so hours of repair. Flo thought she felt better. But It seems more serious matters were at hand. Death or suicide.

    I recomend you watch the video of this first AAC of David and Julie Mayo. Get a sense of them, from say 57 mins.

    Careful not to fall in love with Julia.... difficult.
  16. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    The book 'Outrageous Betrayal' is about Erhard . . . . As bad a scno/co$/lrh, just not as successful - ahem - as lrh at enslavement.
  17. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Oh, there's a connection to Erhard in here. I just haven't had time to construct a coherent post about it.
  18. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Note I commented that "PTS is quite similar to any examples and descriptions of being effect. " I should have said that PTS is an example of stress which is probably easier to understand. Its generally considered in medical circles that stress can be a cause for disease and psychosis.

    The stress that is associated with being in CO$ has had thousands and thousands of web pages and testimonies and most here are familiar with them. Note however that by and large these stressful situations are not usually found in the FZ.

    The CO$ in fact mostly practices reverse or black scientology. The
    role is not to provide service to the client, but that the client must serve the organisation. Note that senior policy is "deliver what you promise". another important policy is Service Pl 29 Oct 1959

    The watchword is SERVICE.

    "I don't care how many rules you break if they're
    broken to give unselfish service to one another and
    the public. We live for service not for rules."

    FIRST POLICY ( march 1950)


    These are all used reversely by CO$. This in fact undermines any
    good that may be delivered by the tech, and in fact makes such
    good delivery impossible. As Mayo said towards the end of the video
    of his AAC, scientology delivered without ARC won't work. Flag
    supposedly from CO$ PR " The friendliest place in the world " is by all
    accounts the opposite.

    One of the problems is "executive C/Sing" in other words not
    working for the clients interest but for the executive or CO$ interest,
    often to maximize income or plain incompetance. Then their is the blanket
    executive C/Sing such as changing the parameters for declaring someone clear. This is very important if one is doing the bridge. I know 2 OT 5s
    who have had to do 5 CCRDs [ the auditing action to determine if one is clear] They are no longer scientologists. Bea Kiddo has written at length on this issue here.

    CO$ is run by a sociopath. The results then are what one would
  19. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Somehow I think the medical world in general is little concerned with Elcon's fabricated cultist labels. Trying to tie in cult-speak/think as a form of legitimacy with medicine (or psychology) is misleading.

    $cientology is $cientology whether in or out of the so called cherch, designed by a sociopath (Elcon), still being run by a sociopath (Slappy) with subsequent gurus here and there putting their spin on it for followers.

    Scio's in the cherch write success stories because they are having "wins."
    Scio's out of the cherch write success stories because they are having "wins."

    $cio's in the cherch have "the tehk."
    $cio's out of the cherch have "the tehk."

    $cio's in the cherch make outrageous claims that make for some lulzy reading.
    $cio's out of the cherch make outrageous claims that make for some lulzy reading.

    $cio's in the cherch rave about Elcon.
    $cio's out of the church rave about Elcon.

    $cio's in the cherch claim no one is damaged by Elcon's tehk.
    $cio's out of the cherch claim no one is damaged by Elcon's tehk.

    Anyone see a pattern? lol.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  20. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Regarding Flo Barnett comment above, very few if anyone would know if she was or was not referred to a medical professional after she left the hospital when she was treated for the brain aneurism she suffered. Certainly her doctors at the hospital referred her to medical aftercare, as all hospitals do before a sick patient is discharged. Even if others at the ACC did or did not suggest that she get continued medical treatment ( and it's pure speculation or rumor from what I see if, in fact, anyone has stated that she went back to get services there ) she would have already been made aware of her options upon discharge at the hospital. To presume ACC had anything to do with her decisions to obtain or not any followup care is not fair because there is a sufficient lack of information to support any such matter was addressed.

    Regarding the last comment, as noted in bold above, which specific groups were spawned from ACC?

    Wouldn't they all be squirrel groups just like those spawned from Scientology? Who is to say they spawned from ACC technical wise and not from Scientology, tech wise?

    That they, and Scientology itself, are "all dangerous" is a relative term but also a generalized one. I think you owe it to us here to be more specific in which groups you are referring to, since you asked the questions, raised the issue and made the comment.