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Knowing How to Know vs. Believing

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mojo, Oct 13, 2007.

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  1. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    MI stands for Military Intelligence, the British version of the CIA. There were several departments, MI-5, MI-6, etc, each taking care of a different part of the world or area of intelligence gathering. It was reformed and renamed in the 60's but the MI designations carried on, I don't know if they are still used now. James Bond was in one of the MI's, they were in existence when Fleming wrote the Bond books.
     
  2. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    What's that? I mean the real meaning of that phrase.

    .
     
  3. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Now I understand what Bea is up to... She unknowingly made a slip.

    .
     
  4. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    +Don't worry about the Duh. Haven't you heard of Leon's Axiom 1 yet? This universe and all life in it is basically a bullbait.

    Before this thread descends into total crap let me tell you about an "ascension experience" I had that last the best part of a week. It wasn't in Scientology though, but in a squirrel off-shoot of it.

    We ran this process - then I suddenly realized where it was heading and just pushed myself towards that viewpoint and took it on - then.....I was at the very edge of the universe, it ENDED just here - a few inches in front of me - beyond it was NOTHING (get it - it was there in front of me, it was NOTHING), any ability to speak or itsa was gone, could not be itsa'd, language ended and was no use, I could go into the nothing and I heard music like nothing I'd ever heard before this LT (more on this later), not orchestral, not singing, just the pure essence of music, tears pouring down my face at the beauty of it, but I had a body and had to live as the body, I had to force myself back which I then did and told my "auditor" about it. He couldn't grasp what I was talking about.

    That night in bed I went into it again, the most incredibly beautiful music in the nothing. There was no quantitiy no language no anything, yet is WAS, it IS but it is NOTHING. no space, nothing. I returned after ??? time? none. For days afterwards I would jsu think of this and would go into the nothinig and hear the music. Was a problem - once I was driving in the car and I went into it - had to pull over fast.

    I realilsed how thin this universe was - very thin. I found some others who had experioenced this themselves and our experiences tallied. I recalled something I'd come across in auditing - back in 1370 I was a monk in Italy and during spiritual exercises I exteriorised and looked over the countryside and then too I went into this nothing and heard the music. (got squashed by the church too for having "out-tech" experienes! LOL)

    It went on for about 5 or 6 days, getting less and less. One has to work - at first I really had to put in a determined effort to focus on this thing we call "present time" so I could function in it. then it got back onto automatic again.

    +++++++++

    There is "know" but it is ineffable - cannnot be spoken. The tao that can be spoken about is not the Tao. Truth believed in is not the truth. LRH wanted to package the Truth - it immediately became a lie. He should have known that. He was at his most OT back in 1952-53, those years.

    Enough for now. The rugby is on - South Africa against Argentina.
     
  5. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Thank you for sharing that beautiful experience. :)

    .
     
  6. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Leon.
     
  7. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    "Before this thread descends into total crap..."

    Too late! However the idea that the universe is a TRO bullbait session is part of the invalidative process dished out in orgs. "Only in here are you safe." Everywhere outside is attack. By what? BY IDEAS! You will be assaulted with ideas! You will have to think, to judge, to learn! In here just follow our yellow brick road (while adopting the petty pretensions of our particular set of insanities) and all will be fine. You will be secure in absolute certainty.

    Honestly, if the universe is a bullbait mechanism it has been made so by the individual, IMO. There's nothing wrong with it. It is just what it is.
     
  8. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Quien sabe? No se.
     
  9. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's half-time and we're leading 24-6.
     
  10. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    I realize the opinion you speak of was not directed at me (unless of course I consider You as being one of my Vicariously Living Identities, at which point it was directed at Me. Thus below is how Me would respond (to what you interpreted as being gobblygook): The gobblygook being:

    Alan Stated: I'm not sure if you can truly get the purity or infiniteness of the formless unsubstantial substance of the purity and essence of Spirit or the purity and essence or infiniteness of pure conciousness, awareness, love etc. (fill in the formless unsubstantial substance qualities and attributes of your choice.)

    Me response: I get it (what you said). And, we nonethess are it. It's what is behind, before, higher, prior and present, as us, as a living illustration/illusion/creation/revelation etc. etc. called physical being of it. And, quite possibly we are not intended to get it. Better to just be it.

    Silence, for example, is in no need of being understood for its being to exist. It just is. And it is what preceeds every sound in the universe and in man. And it is what every sound in the universe and in man returns to when the interruption of it, is done. Lol. And even then, sound is not necessarily an anthethis to silence. It may well be a presentation of silence. Just as MEST is not an anthethis to Thetan, but is a presentation of Thetan.

    Ok, getting off track here. Simply put Vinaire, what is gobblygook to you is evidence of a belief of yours. That's fine. This thread is about the difference between knowing how to know and believing. I appreciate your belief and believe it is based on a lack of data. Lol.
     
  11. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Too many meaningless, incoherent, or irrelevant words confuse me. I prefer silence in their place, or something brief and meaningful.

    Do you understand what Alan meant by "AXIOM 1 is the basic incorrectness of Scio!"?

    .
     
  12. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    No. Not for certain.

    But one meaning could be that LRH saying "Life is basically a static" as the Primary/#1 Axiom laid the foundation for a passive, receptive way of being for his followers. For as a possiblity, if one starts out perceiving themself as being without mass without energy without form, etc etc etc, one is (or at least can be) in a manner of speaking, an emptiness ripe for the filling. Which is why (I believe) a number of esoteric traditions will not permit individuals lacking a certain amount of real world "life" experience from gaining acess to their information. No one under 35 need apply. Just kidding there (but the point remains).

    In any event that's a meaning I created. Alan knows what Alan meant. Let's ask him. Alan, can you explain what you meant by "AXIOM 1 is the basic incorrectness of Scio!"

    Thanks.
     
  13. Alan

    Alan Gold Meritorious Patron

    You summed it up very well!

    If you can truly get the purity or infiniteness of the formless unsubstantial substance of the purity and essence of Spirit or the purity and essence or infiniteness of pure omni-presence, omni-conciousness, omni-awareness, omni-love, omni-responsibility, omni-knowingness, etc. (fill in the formless unsubstantial substance qualities and attributes of your choice.)

    Infinite or limitless fullness of all-that-is!

    Almost the exact opposite of the "emptiness" or "nothing."

    It has taken me nearly 50 years to grasp this.

    Alan
     
  14. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    But "passive" would be a consideration coming out from static. And so would be all other considerations that you are generously adding above.

    Neither you nor Alan has gotten it. I am amazed.

    What a waste of 50 years!

    .
     
  15. Alan

    Alan Gold Meritorious Patron

    :roflmao:

    Poor Vinnaire!
     
  16. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    It is "Vinaire" with one "n". :duh:

    .
     
  17. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    As long as Davey is re-doing the Bridge... while he is at it... I think that the CofS should change that Axiom to "All of life is a footbullet". (Hmmm... yeah... I think this would be more appropriate. <snicker>)
     
  18. beyond_horizons

    beyond_horizons Patron Meritorious

    For a nobody (static) you sure do appear to be somebody who's mouth keeps running on perpetual motion. :) Seems Hubbard's stuff's has gotten you a bit fucked up on that one.

    :D
     
  19. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Ok. Remember V, the essence of this thread is about knowing how to know vs. believing. So I get it that you believe 50 years was wasted. As for me I do not believe one single moment in one single life throughout all of human history has been wasted. Painful? yes. Horrific? yes. Absurd, Bizarre, Insane, Corrupt? yes yes yes yes. But useful at some level of Being.

    But such is a divergence.

    In post #35 you wrote:

    "I think what has destroyed "Scientology" is the following.

    (1) Trying to view Scientology in a vacuum, without understanding its background."....

    Perhaps you can clarify how someone newly entering into scientology, can 'understand' scientology's background ? When LRH, the founder/author/discoverer? of scientology went to great lengths to do exactly that, all by himself ? With no Verbal Tech allowed here. Lol.

    And please, if possible, explain the background of scientology in terms of facts and knowledge as opposed to beliefs and opinions.

    Thanks
     
  20. beyond_horizons

    beyond_horizons Patron Meritorious

    As I recall in his affirmations, didn't hubbo claim that he was the light?

    Thats probably why the word and concept wasn't defined in this so called religion's tech dictionary!

    I recall on a number of occasions stepping back and allowing those so called scientologists with 'altitude' to step in and command and take control of nearly every aspect of my life in the name of their source.

    :)