ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Ladybird, Ladybird

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by olska, Jan 6, 2008.

  1. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    It's an impressive OP! - The confusion and turbulence in that ARS thread is something to behold.. I lost track completely anyway.

    I hate to give those OSA idiots stat points, but I have had to realize that I don't know shit and better STFU. I need to do extensive studies of a dusin veird sidetracks at least.

    Hmm.. Just to compensate for the stat points there..

    L.Ron Hubbard is a fraud and a liar! - And Scientololgy is a SINISTER CULT!!!

    :grouch:
     
  2. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Yes its all hard to comprehend.

    I'll give my take on things.

    Both Emma and Patty wanted to help people and entered the COS.

    Both ended up doing work for OSA in different ways. And realised they had betrayed not only themselves but others. That is a much harder cross to bear than the usual COS screwovers others experienced.

    They both had a crisis of concscience. This is all in the public domain by the way.

    IMO they are still both trying to help their fellow man in differing ways.

    They were good friends.

    Patty's recent, and I'm sure not first, crisis of concscience has deeply hurt Emma. Yet I see that Patty felt she must speak out. Personally I don't think she did this in the best possible way, but I'm maybe not informed enough to make a judgement.

    I see them tearing each others heart out, whilst tearing out their own.

    Brings me to tears.

    Emma has created this great space. Patty as Cerridwen reported on events and has worked extensively with Kristi Wachter on compiling the records of the cult.

    Please try to be a little kinder to each other.

    Please!
     
  3. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    It seems to me that no matter how long you were 'in' or how long you have been 'out' that somewhere along the line there comes a lesson about personal integrity. It comes in many different forms, and also often repeated until learned. :melodramatic:

    Our value systems were redefined in Scientology. The concepts of loyalty, love, truth etc. We were taught that any action or even thought that was not what 'we were supposed to do' (per LRH) was wrong, and to lay bare our very souls for correction. On a public formum that can have awful consequences.

    So now we re-learn those values by trial and error. I did things whilst on staff that I am ashamed of now. I witnessed even worse. It's the same for most exes. We need to find the truth of what is right for ourselves here and now, to forgive ourselves and each other for what happened then. And to continue to make it safe for others to follow the path away from such betrayal.

    Love to you both.
     
  4. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    There is a positive ability to withhold, without which a lot of confusion and destruction could be unleashed.

    .
     
  5. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    You are right. It was a hard lesson for me, that one! :D
     
  6. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    In the non-scientology real world the positive ability to withold lies manipulation and deception to spare the possibility of confusion and destruction is a monumental mockery of the phrase 'positive ability'.

    I do not agree with Patty's method of taking Emma to task for Patty's moral crisis on a public forum, but Emma herself started this thread with an offer to answer any questions about the entire sorid affair. Which offer has been met with a resounding 'never desert a comrade in need' response by the regulars on this board. So be it. If Emma were my personal friend I would probably look the other way also and chastise those whom would dare take her up on her original offer to answer any questions. But she is not my personal friend
    and her willingness to 'not withold' the truth was a far better approach to ending the subject than your "witholding the truth is a positive ability" theory of enlightened communication Vin.

    Zinj led the charge with his "don't answer the questions you offered to answer Emma" and Mick's "You made a public fool of yourself" to me in response to my taking Zinj to task for his seeming 'out of character' commentary was interesting, to say the least.

    At least Veda's comment "The only thing "sad" is that Scientology's "dirty tricks" tactics and "tech" - even though they've been fairly well described over the years - are still not understood by some. You need to do your homework on this part of the "tech," Mojo." was spot on the mark.

    Quite frankly I could care a less about the details of Patty's and Emma's alleged gossiping about who's who (given I've outed myself on every board I've ever posted on). It's the scientology mindset of which you Vinaire have so eloquently articulated that get's my goat. Summed up as 'Witholding truth is good' as it prevents unnecessary pain to others. Bull shit.

    Spare me the kindness of your thoughtful deception.

    Mojo
     
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I think I can see some of the factors involved here.

    Zinj and Mick have seen the kind of wolf-pack flesh tearing that gets waged on ARS, with questioners demanding answers, and all kinds of vicious accusations that never stop. And I think they'd like to uphold the ESMB Ideal of Civility and spare Emma that.

    I do, too. I also share their loyalty and trust of Emma.

    But Mojo, I can see your point, as well.

    And I think you are right, too. I disagree with Mick here.

    Emma did say that she would answer all questions. And I don't think your questions were out of line at all.

    I think Emma should do what she wants in answering them.

    But she doesn't have to answer anything she doesn't want to answer.

    Personally, I think the "confront it head on" approach that Emma offered is a good one.

    IP address handling and privacy policies are very, very hot and valid topics everywhere on the Internet. And they are especially hot topics in the Scientology critical community.

    There is no reason not to fully address them head on.

    And many reasons why they should be.
     
  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Deleted.

    .
     
  9. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Uncontrolled communication is simply insane purposeless diarrhea.

    .
     
  10. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Diarrhea has a purpose.
     
  11. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I really don't see that you can make that summary so that when you say "positive ability" it is different from when Vinny says "positive ability". Or am I not reading this right? :confused2:
     
  12. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Is your implication that my communication is uncontrolled Vinaire? Or is it a generalized statement?
     
  13. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Personally I would have dropped the word 'positive' from the phrase.

    An ability is always positive from my point of view. I was merely trying to capture what Vinaire said and respond in like fashion.

    Essentially I disagree with Hubbard's and Vinaires (and Zinj's?) theory of communication wherein 'witholding' the truth about lies deception and manipulation is somehow or other in the best interest of the one being lied to (if not for the benefit of the receipient of the witholding, at least it makes the witholder of the truth feel better about themselves). It's a scientology principle that is seemingly set in stone under the general umbrella of the 'tell an acceptable truth' doctrine of Mr. Hubbard. Which doctrine I find pathetic, most especially when presented under the guise of "increasing ones ability to communicate". Not to mention the concept of integrity.

    Emma is not a child. And neither am I. And neither are the majority of the participants and readers of this forum. Thus we are in no need of protection from the rigorous demands of the dog-shit realities of honest communication as Vinaire would suggest we are in need of (lest we suffer the pangs of confusion and destruction).

    Lastly, for the record, I have the utmost respect for and admiration of Emma, Vinaire, Zinj, Mick, Alanzo, You and Myself. Thus my willingness to engage in this uncomfortable topic and thread is not evidence of anything other than a willingness to call a spade a spade. Which in the world of scientology tends to be called entheta whereas in the real world it's called, well, calling a spade a spade.

    Mojo

    P.S. To Emma: I withdrawl my questions to you and apologize to you if you found them to be offensive.
     
  14. Emma

    Emma Con te partirĂ² Administrator

    I haven't found anything anyone has said here offensive.

    I have been very busy the last day or two trying to handle the fallout and go to work, look after my daughter etc.

    I have the next few days somewhat free and will be writing one or maybe more posts to clean the slate on a number of issues.

    I will be heeding some advice here though and won't be falling into a trap of never ending questions that suck the life out of me.

    There is unfinished business (mine) that needs to be tidied up, particularly regarding my OSA activities. The personal stuff will remain personal and I won't be answering questions about that.

    I ask you to please be a little more patient and know that in the next day or two most, if not all your questions will be answered.
     
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Since you're quoting me in a (above) follow up posting, to avoid any confusion, here's my complete statement, in response to your initial posting earlier in the thread.

    It's not surprising that ESMB has come under this kind of attack. Ultimately, it will be a victory for ESMB, and other, related, free forums, and another foot bullet for Scientology Inc.
     
  16. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I do understand what you're saying, it is an interesting part of the doctrine that needs looking at. Ok let me give you a little example of how I learned that sometimes you have to withhold and that can be a positive ability gained.

    I was a stay at home Mum with little kids, who do what little kids do, and some things needed to be addressed from time to time, like the banana in the VCR or sibling spats, up to more serious things.

    As a good Scientology parent I had the idea that both parents should be involved, know exactly what was going on and handle anything together. Totally free communication. So I would handle whatever the situation was on the spot and when my husband came home would tell him of it, and tell him it was already handled.

    Inevitably he would then go get the child concerned, yell the shit out of them and assign some punishment over the top of anything I had already done! :duh:

    Eventually it got to the point where my children were getting so distressed by this that the wonderful connection and honesty we had always had between us was in serious trouble. I faced a moral dilemma between telling the real situations to my husband, and therefore subjecting them to his ideas of justice, or withholding details of what we had worked out between us as mother and child. It really tore me apart. Maybe you can't understand that, but it did.

    In Scientology you are taught NOT to withhold. Don't have those secret thoughts, don't question. Tell it all so you are as vulnerable as a newborn babe. And this is used against you in despicable ways so that you toe the line.

    So the point of all this is that personal integrity has to be involved in communication and there are times when it's better to zip the lip so as not to make a situation worse. My relationship with my kids since that long ago decision has been terrific.

    As far as how it concerns Emma and Patty, well that's totally up to them. I don't think there's a "resounding 'never desert a comrade in need' response by the regulars on this board", just individuals stating their opinion. :) A lot of us are aware how you can get your guts ripped out in a public forum (elsewhere) and how all that can be used to distract and cause enturbulation, and make critics look like idiots.

    And often that "you must tell all" thing is used as part of that.
     
  17. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    If I were to die on this night, and were given the chance to say one last thing, it would be this: "I love those the most, whom suffered the most, in this world".

    Thus I love everyone on this board.

    The most.

    That's all.

    Love,

    Mojo

    P.S. Everything else is just commentary.
     
  18. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I understand that too. :)
     
  19. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, that is how it is done there. Yet it is a blatant violation of the tech. The correct EP for Grade Two was always a resurgence in the preclear's ability to withhold.

    The fact that they haven't had that as the stated EP for many years now is all part of the inversion of proper Scientology into the abortion that Veda goes on about so.
     
  20. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Yes, this could certainly be seen this way. And I would like to see it that way...

    But Pattys first post looked too much like a product of some OSA programme to me.. I admit that I'm probably paranoid. That's what I got with me from the GO.

    Patty accuses Emma and Roan of being OSA OP's. She says that both OCMB and ESMB are in fact compromised by OSA infiltration. To me, that looks like an attack on those boards. Designed to scare people off.. The cult can't have the critics communing and forming alliances. If anything is worse in their eyes, it is active, maybe slightly doubting, scios talking outside the box. This is what ESMB is! - Makes Gavino break out in hives!

    Thus we can expect OSA to come up with some form of 'handling' of this board. This is what I suspect we are vitnessing. Well prepared and executed 3rd partying aimed at getting the boards closed down and discredited.

    Erh.. If Pattys right. Then OCMB and ESMB are OSA intelligence gathering and IP adress mining operations!

    That's preposterous.

    However, I could see Patty being paranoid about OSA.. I'm familiar with that.. So that she actually believes that Roan is Gavino Idda in disguise. I could also accept that she really believes that IP adresses is such a grave security risk... They are not!

    Likewise, I can emphatise with Patty getting her ethics panties in a bunch over Emma, and herself, looking for Ladybirds IP to locate her... But in fact Ladybirds IP would only reveal that she's in some 'part' of the country. The IP can only tell you which Internet Service Provider she uses. Other than that the IP could have shown which account ladybird uses here on ESMB.

    But in fact this incident is nothing to sweat about.

    Oh, I could object to those two trying to give Ladybird a hard time... I like Ladybird.. I like Emma.. And Patty too, before I got smitten with this suspicion.. They're belligerent bitches. But then, I have a lifelong tradition of being attracted to belligerent bitches!

    Patty has some explaining to do. Those attacks on Gerry Armstrong.. And attacks on critics at OCMB too.

    Attacks on critics is allways suspicios imo..


    .