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Need talking points to counter "Why don't they go to law enforcement?"

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by moarxenu, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. chipgallo

    chipgallo Patron Meritorious

    I remember a spousal abuse case at FCDC where the batterer was a high producing registrar. He was sent to Ethics but nobody in the chain of command (org-FOLO-Flag-Int) would have allowed him to be taken off post for very long. It is possible that with a replacement like the HES stepping in to reg, he could have gone for Athena Cramming but, seriously, it is doubtful he would stop beating his wife from a cram. And the previous poster is correct that law enforcement was not contacted by the org due to the code of justice.

    Another time a Mission determined that the staff running the childcare org were a risk. Again no changes were made to the staffing due to so-called production concerns.
  2. Ladybird

    Ladybird Silver Meritorious Patron

    This is a good reference that explains why it often takes scientologists over 2 years to recover enough to be ready to go to law enforcement. By that time the statute of limitations is up on reporting most crimes.

  3. Arthur Dent

    Arthur Dent Silver Meritorious Patron

    I understand, Ladybird. That is so much of the problem.

    And, chipgallo, they are even more explicit examples than I posted. Very real. Made my point even better.

    I would love to see all this damage undone. Unfortunately, kids (to my knowledge - and I am out of the loop) are not educated about cults! And what mind control is. Only about religious tolerance. Then again, how can the school systems effectively teach about mind control...forget another thread...there's anther whole message board!!:think:
  4. Lohan2008

    Lohan2008 Gold Meritorious Patron


    It is more likely that police and religious leaders are not educated, they have to be willing to commit their time to finding out Scientolgy (true) history.
  5. chipgallo

    chipgallo Patron Meritorious

    Local law enforcement can start by issuing subpoenas for all Committees of Evidence and Boards of Inquiry. For years the orgs have held these mock trials and bypassed the judicial and legal systems while prohibiting members from availing themselves of due process by threatening their so-called eternal salvation.

    It needs to be done broadly and quickly so the fanatical ScienCorp tools don't have a chance to destroy the evidence. I have had several of these mock justice actions and would love to get the records and destroy them. Along with all the other personally identifiable information the orgs have on me: personnel file, ethics file, staff training files, Qual file, PC folders, CF file, Treasury File, G.O. and OSA record, etc.
  6. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    The Church of Scientology actually has systematic procedures to *prevent* people going to law enforcement.
    This means that Scientology crimes are not able to be dicovered or prosecuted in the ususl way, allowing for more and more abuse.

    Victims are blackmailed, coerced and threatened to help Scientology *hide* the criminal activity and abuse from law enforcemnt. The Church of Scientology thus subverts the laws and the Government needs to step in to find out why the laws of the land are not sufficent to prevent the harm that Scientology does to citiizens.

    The Church of Scientology has policies and directives which require that believers place the authority of the COS *above* the authority of the law. Thus the law even if used, will never ever, be seen as binding by the cos if it conflicts with their authority. Since the COS does conflict with the law due to their methods of expansion and silencing of critics, an investigation is needed to find out what exactly is going on. And by the way there are secret units within sceintology who are there to subvert any laws that scientologist feel could inhibit their expansions. One example is to make public announcements that Disconnection was cancelled. But actually, it wasn't. Tommy Davis's latest interviews show him expaining how they still do it.

    The law is totally inadequate to investigate the scope The COS methods. One such method is use of religious status to avoid both tax and investigating of harm caused by denial of proper medical or psychological/psychiatric treatment. This is contentious, but that is precisely why the COS uses it, The religious beliefs themselves do not need investigating but the behaviour of people, who claim the right to do whatever they like under the *religion label* does need investigating. Once again the scope of this requires an enquiry.

    Why do people not use the Law? They are terrified: of being harrased and having their lives ruined. There is a lot of documentary evidence of this. They could be litigated into total ruin. Lots of documentary eveidence of this.
    People want the safety of a goverment enquiry. They do not just want a personal grievance settled (with harassment as the follow-up). They want the COS methods of subverting the laws of the land dealt with for good.
  7. MrNobody

    MrNobody Who needs merits?

    I've never been "in", so I might be pretty clueless here, but I think there's one thing that doesn't get the attention it needs: The cult has it's own justice system. A justice system of which the "true believers" think it's much better than the real one outside the cult.

    Why are there OTs here on ESMB telling how they spent decades writing tomes of letters to the IJC, to DM and whatnot? Why has Scooter* lied and helped cover up the deaths of his daughters?

    Ask these people and you might get all the talking points you need.

    * Sorry Scooter, I didn't want to single you out, it was just the best example I've had at the moment.
  8. 3rdman

    3rdman Patron

    I can take a gander that when many come out, they aren't in much of a mental/emotional state to go to law enforcement (too much personal turmoil they must get passed), and sometimes its too late after the statute of limitations is passed.

    Of course there is always the possibility they had a hand in some criminal activity and have no desire to be amongst those convicted. Even if you can just get a lawyer to get a plea, that costs money and many come out too poor to be able to handle that.

    I'm just throwing stuff out there.
  9. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    I know how you feel. I was raised up with religious beliefs I no longer hold. I found studying unapologetic criticisms of the beliefs I wanted to rid myself of really helped. Studying the history of the people who made these beliefs really helped.
  10. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree with this. Police at raids vary in their knowledge and let's face it, there is enough in Scientology's history to fill a 3 year bachelor's course. Who can keep up.

    Also another reason that they don't go to the police is due to 'artificial phobias,' fears conditioned into the victims that are not rational. At my first raid, I saw preclears running from one side of the org to another covering their eyes. They had obviously been told not to look at us and were visibly frightened.

    That was about 6 months ago, at Hercules Street Sydney, and I have not seen it occur since. I suspect that they are not getting much in the way of fresh meat anymore. Traffic at Hercules St is much reduced during the raids.

    Maybe it is because, apparently, they are giving everyone PTS SP courses (for free! to staff! in MY Scientology!! That's out-ethics!).
  11. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Is there any kind of a legal angle here?

  12. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    The Op referred to civic and religious leaders. I think it's important for them, politicians and the general public to really get the message that the COS has it's own justice system and under this system it is considered "unethical", in many cases to report crime in the COS to the police.

    Thus the laws of the landare made null and void.

    People who leave the COS do not necessarily consider themselves "non-scientologist", and they do not want to make life difficult for friend and family still in. So they apply the COS "justice system". This means that people cannot and will not go to the law.

    An enquiry is needed to find out about if, how, why, and by whom peole are being prevented from using the law.
  13. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    There's one court that the church can be defeated in and that is the court of Public Opinion.

    That is why it is all the more important for those who can to speak out.

    The media is more receptive and responsive to reporting now which is taking the to the non-Scientology public.
  14. KnightVision

    KnightVision Gold Meritorious Patron

    Six very real and simple reasons:

    FEAR of having their confidential PC folder and Ethics files contents made public or used against them.

    SO staff who were the victims of the worst crimes and want to leave (without loosing their SCN family and friends), are not allowed to do so without first being subject to:

    The RPF Labor Camp (where their will is broken down)

    Constant Lie Detector Interrogations (where their sanity is severely harmed)

    Being forced to sign documents that falsely state various 'crimes' they have committed and that the Co$ is completely innocent.

    Threatened with disconnection and or fair game if they 'go public'.

    Need one say more?

    PS FYI: Contact Jeff Hawkins

    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  15. Petey C

    Petey C Silver Meritorious Patron

    To all of the above we should add "evidence", which is generally a requirement in law enforcement. Most of us left without hard evidence of what was done to us and others; there would be few corroborating witnesses in Scio willing to come forward, specially if they're still in. Without evidence, we're left with assertion and while the wronged can produce affidavits, the law enforcement/legal system has no place to go once it comes down to assertion and denial. When I first left Scn, I went to a lawyer and that was his advice. (Together with "do you want to spend the rest of your life fighting this mob?") That was bitter advice to follow at the time. To come back to the original question, though (talking points), the way most of us leave we do not have the time or the ability to collect the evidence we need to make an airtight legal case.
  16. Ladybird

    Ladybird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Scientologists are strongly discouraged from reporting crimes to the proper authorities, in fact reporting a fellow cult member is considered a "High Crime" in the cult. There are MANY examples of this on line, and I am sure that is just the tip of the iceberg and many more crimes have gone unreported.

    Some of the worst cases of the cult hiding criminals and crimes is the abuse of children, and especially the pedophiles the cult has harbored and protected while blaming the victims. I was reminded of this by the look of glee on Norman Starkys face on the CNN show "AC 360" last night. Accusing people of sex crimes and child abuse is a favorite cult tactic. Some how they don't see that the following cult scripture applies to them too: "A criminal always accuses others of what he himself is doing.:~LRH.

    Here are a few examples:

    "State of Florida v. Donald Anthony Strawn
    Excerpts from deposition

    The following document contains excerpts from a legal deposition taken in the case of Florida v. Donald Anthony Strawn. Its importance lies in the fact that in it, the deponent (Strawn's wife at the time) accuses the Church of Scientology of recommending that a capital felony not be reported to the police.

    Important parts of the deposition pertaining to this fact have been given additional emphasis with boldface. Because the victims were minors, their full names have been stricken from this document. "

    Cover up of pedophile child sexual abuse by Scientology

    Part of Tax-exempt Child Abuse and Neglect by Mike Gormez. Link to message board:

    "When reading the stories of child sexual abuse and how Scientology management tried to cover them up, then remember there's a Scientology policy stating that scientologists who are "upstat" - those doing very well, and/or making a lot of money for Scientology - should never be punished, while those who are "downstat" should be investigated. Gabriel Scott Williams reportedly was such an "upstat" person who was making lots of money for Scientology and so victim Jennifer was to be stopped filing a complaint about the gruesome sexual and psychological abuse of Gabe Wiliams."

    Source: HCOPL 1 September 1965, "Ethics Protection":

    Child rapist Gabriel Williams
    New York Post, 2 October 2005


    Donald Anthony Strawn
    State of Florida v. Donald Anthony Strawn

    Tony Strawn is currently incarcerated by the Department of Corrections, FL


    Letter of Yolanda Howell to Dennis Erlich (auf Deutsch)

    Sea Org = Scientology members who signed a billion year contract
    Cadet Org = program for children so their Sea Org parents can get on with their business within the organization


    Low Priority for Child Welfare By Adeline Dodd-Bova


    The Mace Kingsley Ranch by Astra Woodcraft

    Ex-scientologists Jane Scott writes to John Ashcroft

    Wally Hanks / Wallace Hanks' scientology page vanished but here is still a partial copy. Hanks is currently Founding Commodore of a sailing club for youth. The Roundhouse Yacht Club.

    Apparently the MK-Ranch was closed. I don't know why but the following explanation was given by the state website:

    State of New Mexico - Department of Education

    June 10, 2002

    Nonpublic Schools Commission to Meet on June 14

    The Mace-Kingsley Ranch was renamed Hacienda Del Espirito, Inc. aka New Mexico Ranch. and is currently, April 2004, for sale. Note that in Clearwater, Florida, a Mace-Kingsley Family Center exists with Jeff Avrin as ED, Ed Cramb as auditor and Carol Kingsley as President.


    Life aboard Scientology's ship 'The Apollo' in 1968
    Posting of Steve Manning 8 Mar 2000


    It is interesting to note that Scientology asked for exemption of a sexual exploitation legislation in Texas, that would forbid counselors to have sex with their patients. Perhaps Scientology feared past and present sexual abuse victims would sue them.

    American Family Foundation - The Cult Observer Vol. 11 No. 4 1994

    Scientologists and Psychiatrists


    Scamizdette: Evidence of disturbing neglect of Scientology children?
    Chris Owen citing internal Scientology documents -- June 1997

  17. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron