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"New" geological data on OT III

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Hubbardianen, Nov 1, 2010.

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  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    The LRH fan club folks veer away from certain sensitive topics, and this does vary somewhat. Some are realistic enough to recognize that there are some things that cannot be denied. I mean, most people (who have an interest in this strange subject) know that Hubbard was a heavy smoker (filterless 'Kools') most of his life. Hubbard's temper is also hard to deny - he could become angry and yell. There's even a willingness by some of Hubbard's fans to admit that he might have sometimes operated outside the law and been less than frank about that (but due to the urgency of his mission to save Mankind, and the international conspiracy to stop him from succeeding).

    There are some LRH fan club people who will even admit that Hubbard's "case" got the better of him as the years went by (and this requires ignoring the historical records indicating that Hubbard was essentially the same guy - with a knack for practical psychology - working toward the same self-aggrandizing objective from 1938 forward). Aside from that, there are those who have only "theta" stories about their beloved guru, and then - the majority - who pretty much tell it like it was, and accounts by these "old timers" can be found in books from the 1980s, on ESMB, and other places.

    One area that remains somewhat controversial - and very upsetting to the LRH fan club folks - is the mention of Hubbard's alcohol consumption, and - especially - his drug consumption. There's even a very credible "old timer" (who has posted here) who smoked pot with Hubbard in 1953 in Phoenix. It was no big deal, although it seems that Hubbard did not care much for pot, preferring nicotine, alcohol, and pharmaceuticals. And there are many other accounts of Hubbard's alcohol and drug consumption, including that of the "world's first real clear," John McMaster, and also that of Hubbard's oldest son (who was ultimately 'fair gamed' into signing a retraction).

    These accounts a sometimes difficult to convey to those still under the influence of modern (1960s forward) Scientology http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=465570&postcount=103 , where drugs are a major taboo, but regarded from the perspective of the early Scientology (1952 -), are virtually an irrelevance. At that time, Scientology was rather "thelemic," ("Do what one wilt"), though, even at that time, it was necessary to be mindful of the laws of the land, and - especially after Scientology (1953/54) became a "Church" - mindful of its "image." So there are "old timers" who were clean-cut types who were "out of the loop" re. alcohol and drugs, and there are "old timers" who remember fondly socializing with Hubbard and all getting "drunker than hell," or who recall Hubbard's use of a cocaine&heroin mix around the mid 1950s, and the use of Mescaline around that same time.

    My own guess is that Hubbard "cleaned up his act" somewhat in the latter 1950s (Mary Sue and the kids were a stabilizing influence), and then (from accounts) returned to alcohol and drug use in the late 1960s until the early 1970s, when health problems resulted in his once again "cleaning up his act" - somewhat - again.

    Point is: It was a non-issue to Hubbard. He did as he pleased, while Scientologists were expected to be "smooth ball bearings." http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=480521&postcount=33

    Back to the subject of Xenu and OT 3, here are some more links. These contain more material re. the galaxy, stars, etc., and on Xenu. The source is Hubbard, by way of Bill Robertson (founder of Ron's Orgs):

    http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob19.htm

    http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob20.htm
     
  2. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's my take on OT 3, and the other confidential levels where Scientologists are (mainly) told the contents of their own mind and space, rather than asked. (The "switch" part after the initial "bait" of being told that auditing is mainly about asking the person.)http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77478&postcount=14

    I'd question the "gains" from OT 3, in light of the "trade off" of having one's mind intimately intruded upon by the mental processes of the suggestion-packed OT 3 level. Anyone on OT 3 will be pleased when "stuff happens" but, compared to the initial promise of removing the final barrier to full OT, and the tremendous hype surrounding that level, the "results" are pretty mild.

    I'd also point out that from both the Cof$, and from FZ/Indie Scientology, there is an attempt to handle the "PR problem of Xenu and Incident 2, etc." by either denying these are part of OT 3, or, when that's not possible (which is the case these days with the Internet), to simply deny that one believes it. There's even the PR line (begun by Gordon Melton, a Scientology for-hire PR person&"religious scholar") that the OT 3 incident is a "metaphor." And this PR line has been used by both Cof$ and outside the Cof$ persons. (The metaphor idea conflicts with the Scientological idea of why the "OT 3 data" is both dangerous and vital to know: The OT 3 data presents key information that "duplicates" the "time, place, form, and event" of a previously un-confrontable (except by a few who had glimpses and often became sick) galactic super-engram, and the exact "time, place, form, and event," provided by Hubbard, in his OT 3 materials, makes possible the "as-isness" of the "charge" of the OT 3 incident (in self and in one's "BTs").

    It's assumed, or hoped, that those being "handled" with the "metaphor angle," will be uninformed enough re. Scientology "tech" (or dumb enough) to accept it.

    Personally, I've no problem with the idea of extraterrestrials or of galactic or universal history, but OT 3's Incident 2, IMO, is just bad science fiction, or as old timer (and infamous 1960s "squirrel") Jack Horner described it, "Something Ron dreamt up."
     
  3. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

  4. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    uniquemand,

    I wrote the "youngest". Perhaps the meaning depends on point of view.

    Anyway,

    I consider myself a scientologist but I still think the truth is always senior or equal to scientology, that's why I like to consider every point of view possible.

    I have not done the OT-levels myself, but there's one occasion I remember very clearly: When I visited a bunch of people auditing on OT VII and we were watching TV. After about half an hour the "theta space" in the room was inredible clear. Basically I had no thoughts hanging around in my head or thinking about this or that. It was just an incredible clear experience. That made a very profound impact on me and I've never experienced anything like that before or after either. From that point on I'm at least convinced that there's something called "spiritual".

    Also, many gains have been reported from the levels (although I agree that Hubbard has exaggerated the wins).

    Therefore this fascinates me because there are contradictions.

    So:

    1. The iridium correlate roughly with geological facts.
    2. The shocked quartz points toward one impact, i.e. it does NOT correlate with H-bombs all over the world.
    3. The fossils do NOT correlate as of this writing.

    Trying to explain "away" the above could be that if just a few humanoid fossils are found from beneath the K/T-layer the next 0-50 years it could be enough of evidence for a civilization, due to acid rain dissolving bones. Hubbard claimed the confederation lasted for 20 million years and then was wiped out. Then humans came back here about 35 000 - 100 000 years ago, according to Hubbard.

    And perhaps other samples of shocked quartz, higher concentrations, would be found at other places. Not very likely though since 350 K/T locations have been dug out all around the world. Or that an asteroid actually hit at Chicxulub, but that H-bombs didn't create so much shocked quartz, or that one gigantic H-bomb was dropped at Chicxulub etc.

    But at this time I have to agree, the supporting evidence for OT III from a pure geological POV is not even near enough.

    I can however guarantee that it can be sorted out since so many different materials and chemicals are spread out everywhere at the K/T: shocked quartz, spherules, tektites, stishovites, iridium, soot, bucky balls, clay etc that it can and will in the future be sorted out when enough is dug out.

    An interesting Crime Scene Investigation from a geological point of view. there's an incredible amount of science paper on the net that examines all of this in great detail: Angles, velocities, shocked grains in different directions, azimuths etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2010
  5. You don't have to dig very deep or dig in the ground at all to find the contradictions.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
     
  6. DartSmohen

    DartSmohen Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well, having been with him in Las Palmas and having read the original texts of the "OT 3 incident", I would have to say that a lot of what he wrote was triggered by the wide range of drugs/pharmacuticals he was taking. (He had a history of cocaine abuse).

    Incidentally, if you want to read a REALLY good novel by Hubbard, then I recommend THE FINAL BLACKOUT or OL'DOC METHUSALAH. At least he wrote them, which is more than can be said for the tons of "tech" he claimed to have invented.

    Dart
     
  7. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    Interesting Dart Smohen,

    Yeah, it appears the he contributed a little bit too much of the discoveries to himself.

    What about the original OT-material? What did it state?
    Have you done any OT-levels? What are your thoughts about it?

    Feel free to share any memories of Hubbard, I find it interesting. Did you see any cherubs and firework at Las Palmas for example? (Perhaps that was your post?)

    And if OT III-VII are blatant lies, how come people report gains on those levels?
     
  8. DartSmohen

    DartSmohen Silver Meritorious Patron


    google PAULSRABBIT. There you will find an extended account of what went on.
     
  9. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    http://paulsrabbit.com/

    The third item, Dart Smohen: The Real Story, free PDF download, is the one to read.

    Paul
     
  10. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    Dart,

    What do you mean by "we were turning on all sorts of abilities?" Could you give some examples?

    What level did you reach? What is your opinon of the auditing as of today?

    You state the following: "...led by men carrying poles on which figures of cherubs were mounted."

    Alan states the follwing: "plus as the clock struck the hour – a cherub would come out and blow its horn – it would then go in and something else would come out."

    Two different versions of the cherub-sight. Perhaps there WERE two different versions of it as well?
     
  11. Nurse Pinch

    Nurse Pinch Patron with Honors

  12. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    I've already read that, but thanks. However, if you look at a picture from earth around 65 million years ago you see that if looks pretty much the same, except that the continents are closer to each other:

    http://forum.celestialmatters.org/userpix/5_065Ma1k_1.jpg

    So basically the volcanoes could have been around at about those locations. The volcanoes are not the big issue, the distribution of shocked quartz and lack of fossils are.
     
  13. Rene Descartes

    Rene Descartes Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well we know for sure that one of the following is true

    either

    Hubbard never took a course in Geology

    or never studied it

    or

    Hubbard took a course in Geology and flunked it

    or never went to class

    or dropped the class

    or never studied the book

    I picture Hubbard thinking that the land masses as they are today were the same 75 million years ago.

    Although he talked of lines of force in a galaxy which implies he might have had an inkling of galactic rotation I can't picture him enivisioning that stars locations were different 75 millions of years ago.

    Perhaps the OT3 incident is like a blow up doll. Some people will get their jollies while others won't.

    Rd00
     
  14. Rene Descartes

    Rene Descartes Gold Meritorious Patron

    Regarding...

    "The volcanoes are not the big issue"

    When one undergoes a scientific scrutiny of the topic, it sure can be.

    Rd00
     
  15. looker

    looker Patron Meritorious

    You might be interested in searching for posts on "Free Solo" on ESMB.

    From what I gather there are some who have had their gains but not related to OTIII or Inc I or II.

    And here http://freesolo.homepage.dk/

    Some might say that these *entities* are confusions or alternate viewpoints. I dunno.

    Hope this helps in finding what your looking for in regard as to why people have reported gains on OT3 and above, even when the Xenu story is utterly contrived.
     
  16. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's another view on OT 3 and NOTs:

     
  17. namaste

    namaste Silver Meritorious Patron

    Hubbardianen, you have my respect for daring to look, question, and investigate for yourself. I know that this type of activity is taboo in the Church of Scientology and it is one of the things that I hold them in contempt for.

    I, personally, feel that much of the LRH tech is legit and much of it is a big load of crap. The golden nuggets are there for those who are capable enough to sift through it all and determine what is of value and what is not.
    It is clear to me that Hubbard did know some things -- some very valuable things that are basic to life. Of course, so did the ancients and so do many still today and the expansion of the subject of our existence and self improvement and so forth continues despite Hubbard's attempts to stop it all at his own self-serving reality point.


    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." -- Matthew 7:7

    Best to you my friend

    :hattip:
     
  18. DartSmohen

    DartSmohen Silver Meritorious Patron

    Alan and I both witnessed the same ceremony. Perhaps the difference is in the grammatical delivery of the comments.

    The procession would meander out from the church, men carrying poles on top of which were mounted winged cherubs. As part of the procession a couple of participants blew horns (a bit like vuvuzelas). The procession made its way around the small square and re-entered the church. At the end the lanterns and lights went out. It was very dark.
     
  19. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    Looker,

    Thanks a bunch for that link!

    Namaste,

    Thanks. I agree the current situation in the church is not very good. Hubbard himself said: "Build a better bridge" but this is impossible under the reign of Miscavige. I'm happy all of these freezooners exists that do research and thinking of themselves, coming up with new ideas etc.

    I would love to see serious scientific studies on auditing materials with careful notation of all phenomenons, IQ-changes, what works, what doesn't etc. Just like what real science should be about.

    I also believe everything should be much cheaper, basically self-cost so that as many as possible who want to try it out could do it. Perhaps smaller groups will work better than large, empty buildings?

    Hubbard - Messiah or madman? I think both. Most revolutionaries are a bit crazy (Michael Jackson, Lennon, Hubbard, van Gogh etc) and perhaps that's what's needed to break out and reach new realms?

    I'm eternally thankful to what Hubbard has discovered but I also think it's time to move on and improve some of the technology and be more open about it.
     
  20. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks for the link, I've bookmarked it for future reference.

    Cheers,

    Cats.