Vinaire
Sponsor
Why are you asking questions?
According to your philosophy it is useless to ask questions.
Follow your own philosophy and leave others alone.
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Oh! God!!!
- Thread starter Vinaire
- Start date
Why are you asking questions?
According to your philosophy it is useless to ask questions.
Follow your own philosophy and leave others alone.
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
If somebody asks me a question , I try to answer, emphasizing and pointing out that there is no answer to that question. So, I merely rephrase, restructure and throw the same question back. It's not game playing, because I'm not interested in winning anyone over to my point of view. It's not a question of offering opinions—of course I do have my opinions on everything from disease to divinity, but they're as worthless as anybody else's.
Understanding is a state of being where the question isn't there any more; there is nothing there that says, "Now I understand!"—that's the basic difficulty between everyone. By understanding what I say or any one else says, you are not going to get anywhere.
Understanding is a state of being where the question isn't there any more; there is nothing there that says, "Now I understand!"—that's the basic difficulty between everyone. By understanding what I say or any one else says, you are not going to get anywhere.
Vinaire
Sponsor
You are saying discussion is useless, yet you are discussing.
I doubt that there is that short cut to Nirvava that you are looking for.
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lkwdblds
Crusader
The Theory of Denial of Self and Others
I have given the outlook on life which you have been promoting some careful thought. As I said in an earlier post, it is a theory. In your quote above you state, "Of course I do have my opinions on everything....., but they're as worthless as anybody else's. This is abnegation or denial of all human beings including yourself. Therefore, a good and proper name for you teachings would be "The Theory of Denial of Self and Others.l"
Earlier, before I understood your theory as well as I do now, I suggested that you were recommending that human beings devolve back to an animal state. In fact the lower an animal or insect is on the scale of evolution, the more that animal approaches the ideals which you stand for. You are denying as worthwhile the concepts of spirit, mind, self, meditation, obtaining knowledge, thinking, discussions with other human beings, etc.
An animal such as a dog or cat is operating just as you say humans should operate. They do not exhibit any of the traits which you are condeming or if they exhibit some of them to a small degree then we can go lower on the evolutionary scale down to a rat or even lower to a bug and if we go low enough, the creature will not exhibit any of the traits which you find objectionable in us and which you feel lead us further away from truth than we would be if we did nothing.
To me, this is living proof that the theory which you espouse is not a true and valid theory. Though it is not valid for me and I would never practice it, I realize that you and others may pracitce the teachings inherent in this "Theory of Denial of Self and Others" and I am happy for you and any converts that you have that you have found what you are looking for. Good luck in applying your theory to your own life.
One last question that absolutely puzzles me, since you say that you are not interested in wining anyone over, why do you continue posting here? Everytime you post on this board, you are initiating a reach towards the members participating on this thread, why do you do it? What other reason could there be for you going out of your way to read our posts and then offer your posts to us over and over? Thanks to your last post, I know you will not answer my question because your opinion of why you post here would be as worthless as those of any of the rest of us.
Lakey
I have given the outlook on life which you have been promoting some careful thought. As I said in an earlier post, it is a theory. In your quote above you state, "Of course I do have my opinions on everything....., but they're as worthless as anybody else's. This is abnegation or denial of all human beings including yourself. Therefore, a good and proper name for you teachings would be "The Theory of Denial of Self and Others.l"
Earlier, before I understood your theory as well as I do now, I suggested that you were recommending that human beings devolve back to an animal state. In fact the lower an animal or insect is on the scale of evolution, the more that animal approaches the ideals which you stand for. You are denying as worthwhile the concepts of spirit, mind, self, meditation, obtaining knowledge, thinking, discussions with other human beings, etc.
An animal such as a dog or cat is operating just as you say humans should operate. They do not exhibit any of the traits which you are condeming or if they exhibit some of them to a small degree then we can go lower on the evolutionary scale down to a rat or even lower to a bug and if we go low enough, the creature will not exhibit any of the traits which you find objectionable in us and which you feel lead us further away from truth than we would be if we did nothing.
To me, this is living proof that the theory which you espouse is not a true and valid theory. Though it is not valid for me and I would never practice it, I realize that you and others may pracitce the teachings inherent in this "Theory of Denial of Self and Others" and I am happy for you and any converts that you have that you have found what you are looking for. Good luck in applying your theory to your own life.
One last question that absolutely puzzles me, since you say that you are not interested in wining anyone over, why do you continue posting here? Everytime you post on this board, you are initiating a reach towards the members participating on this thread, why do you do it? What other reason could there be for you going out of your way to read our posts and then offer your posts to us over and over? Thanks to your last post, I know you will not answer my question because your opinion of why you post here would be as worthless as those of any of the rest of us.
Lakey
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
What you are not ready to accept is that you are a thing exactly like a computer. You are so mechanical. Everything is put in there. There is nothing which you can call your own. The brain is not a creator. It is singularly incapable of creating anything. We have taken for granted that there it is something extraordinary, creating all kinds of things that we are so proud of. It is just a reactor and a container. It plays a very minor role in this living organism.
It's like a word finder. You want to know the meaning of a word and press a button. The word-finder says, "Searching." It is thinking about it. If there is any information put in there, it comes out with it. That is exactly the way you are thinking. You ask questions and if there are any answers there, they come out. If the answers are not there, the brain says "Sorry." It is no different from a computer. There’s no life there. It’s all lifeless stuff.
You use a GPS to learn about your bearings so that you may not get lost. Even a dog learns its bearings. I do the same. I am no different from a dog. A dog knows its way back home. It knows its master. So I am just like an animal.
I reject the belief in the special status and superiority of the human species over other species on this planet that nature has carefully managed . Humans have purpose. The mosquito has purpose. The garden slug has purpose.
It's like a word finder. You want to know the meaning of a word and press a button. The word-finder says, "Searching." It is thinking about it. If there is any information put in there, it comes out with it. That is exactly the way you are thinking. You ask questions and if there are any answers there, they come out. If the answers are not there, the brain says "Sorry." It is no different from a computer. There’s no life there. It’s all lifeless stuff.
You use a GPS to learn about your bearings so that you may not get lost. Even a dog learns its bearings. I do the same. I am no different from a dog. A dog knows its way back home. It knows its master. So I am just like an animal.
I reject the belief in the special status and superiority of the human species over other species on this planet that nature has carefully managed . Humans have purpose. The mosquito has purpose. The garden slug has purpose.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Finished man stripped bare!
Now we are getting somewhere! You gave your opinions above and you are right, they are just as worthless as those of the rest of us, maybe even more so.
Maybe the key to your attaining more spiritual advancement would be to lose your GPS machine and not be able to find your way back home. That would distingush you from a dog. Would that make the dog superior to you or vice versa? You say a dog knows its master, so you are just like an animal. Who is your master?
I remember now that you can't answer my questions because if you answered them your opinions would be just as worthless as those of the rest of us. Thanks for lesson #1 in the "Theory of Denial of Self and others". Please make your next post, I am ready for lesson #2.
Lakey
Now we are getting somewhere! You gave your opinions above and you are right, they are just as worthless as those of the rest of us, maybe even more so.
Maybe the key to your attaining more spiritual advancement would be to lose your GPS machine and not be able to find your way back home. That would distingush you from a dog. Would that make the dog superior to you or vice versa? You say a dog knows its master, so you are just like an animal. Who is your master?
I remember now that you can't answer my questions because if you answered them your opinions would be just as worthless as those of the rest of us. Thanks for lesson #1 in the "Theory of Denial of Self and others". Please make your next post, I am ready for lesson #2.
Lakey
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Vinaire
Sponsor
Why should one accept your theory?
From my point of view you are denying human capability to be creative and observant.
Your behavior itself is not in total accordance with what you are saying.
Computers don't have feelings but you have feelings. You still have to work at killing all your feelings if you truly believe in your theory.
My theory is that man has the potential to be creative, observant, evaluative and hold opinions. These are traits not to be discarded but to be further improved.
Why should they be discarded? What are you looking to achieve from that, FM?
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Further Analysis of FM's Theory
FM - I plug in my computer and hit the start button, it must obey me as it has no will of its own. After it performs its functions, I examine its output and analyze its results. The computer assigns no meaning to the results it prints out and has no memory that it printed anything.
The computer is analgous to a tool such as printing press which prints a newspaper. Tens of thousands of copies can be printed in hours where for me to manually write one newspaper, it might take months. The printer has no idea that it has printed anything once it is done.
Machines such as the Computer and the Printer are completely mechanical while human beings have a mechanical ability, as you state, but they also have creative and analytical abilities which computers do not have! Machines are designed and developed by man to greatly expand man's ability to perform the mechanical functions of life. SURELY, A PERSON OF YOUR INTELLIGENCE CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE. I am being honest here, I know you have high intelligence and am not trying to be funny.
There are two things about you that get people upset. First, you are inconsistent and do not practice your own theory and second, you do no allow other people to practice their theories without being critical and mocking their theories as misguided, worthless and worse. Instead of a big tent, you have an infinitesimal tent, i.e., "Its my way or the highway!"
FINAL HONEST SUMMARY - Speaking for myself, I am totally receptive and encouring of you posting your theory here. I will respect your theories and consider them as valid opposing theories to what I believe if you will do two things: First, pracitce what you preach consistently and use your theory in the living of your own life. Second, enlarge your tent and let others have their theories without asserting they are misguided, foolish or worse. Present your theory in a positive manner and do not bash our theories or their application.
Lakey
FM - I plug in my computer and hit the start button, it must obey me as it has no will of its own. After it performs its functions, I examine its output and analyze its results. The computer assigns no meaning to the results it prints out and has no memory that it printed anything.
The computer is analgous to a tool such as printing press which prints a newspaper. Tens of thousands of copies can be printed in hours where for me to manually write one newspaper, it might take months. The printer has no idea that it has printed anything once it is done.
Machines such as the Computer and the Printer are completely mechanical while human beings have a mechanical ability, as you state, but they also have creative and analytical abilities which computers do not have! Machines are designed and developed by man to greatly expand man's ability to perform the mechanical functions of life. SURELY, A PERSON OF YOUR INTELLIGENCE CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE. I am being honest here, I know you have high intelligence and am not trying to be funny.
There are two things about you that get people upset. First, you are inconsistent and do not practice your own theory and second, you do no allow other people to practice their theories without being critical and mocking their theories as misguided, worthless and worse. Instead of a big tent, you have an infinitesimal tent, i.e., "Its my way or the highway!"
FINAL HONEST SUMMARY - Speaking for myself, I am totally receptive and encouring of you posting your theory here. I will respect your theories and consider them as valid opposing theories to what I believe if you will do two things: First, pracitce what you preach consistently and use your theory in the living of your own life. Second, enlarge your tent and let others have their theories without asserting they are misguided, foolish or worse. Present your theory in a positive manner and do not bash our theories or their application.
Lakey
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
Those things only serve to sharpen the intellect through the manipulation, permutation and modification of knowledge and thinking that has been passed along to you. The intellect is no match for the life energy functioning from the intelligence that is already operating there. The intellect cannot touch the life, it cannot permanently alter, improve and safeguard life. But it can interfere with the smooth functioning physical/biological life
It is essential for you to acquire the knowledge necessary for your job. The more efficient you are, the better are your chances. The cleverer you are, the better are your prospects. That is understood. So, you have to put in struggle and effort, use your will and then you arrive at success. But there is always more and more to achieve. But you are using that same instrument to achieve your spiritual goals.
You cannot conceive of the possibility of understanding anything except in time. Everything takes time. It has taken so many years for you to be where you are today, and you are still striving and struggling to reach a higher plateau -- higher and higher and higher. That instrument (mind) which you are using cannot conceive of the possibility of understanding anything without effort, without striving, without producing results. But the issues that you have to deal with in life are the living issues of how to live. The mind has not helped us to solve the problems. Temporarily you can find some solution, but that creates another problem, and it goes on and on and on and on. These are all life issues. The living problems. The instrument which we are using, thought, is a dead instrument and cannot be used to understand anything living. You cannot but think in terms of striving, effort, time -- one day you are going to reach the spiritual goal -- just the way you have succeeded in the goal which you have placed before yourself.
There is no knowledge that can help you to understand or solve living problems. Because there are no problems at all in that sense. We have only solutions. You are interested only in solutions, and those solutions have not perfectly solved the problems. So you are trying to find different kinds of solutions. But the situation will remain exactly the same. There is somehow the hope that maybe you will find the solution for solving the problems.
So the problem is not the problem but the solution. If the solution is gone, there is no problem there. If there is a solution, the problem shouldn't be there anymore. If the answers given by others the "wise men" are the answers, then the questions shouldn't be there at all. So they are obviously not the answers. If they were the answers, the questions would not be there. So why don't you question the answers? If you question the answers, you must question those who have given the answers. But you take it for granted that they are all wise men; that they are spiritually superior to us all; and that they know what they are talking about.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Excellent post!
Excellent post! You presented you material in a positive and thorough manner.
I would counter that 5,000 years ago, mankind believed that the Earth was flat and was supported on poles, on the backs of turtles swimming in a sea and under the sea was mud. The people of that time could not say what supported the mud, it just went down forever. Mankind believed it was possible to fall off the Earth into the sea and mud below. They believed there was only the Earth, which was the entire universe and the sky of the Earth had the Sun for heat plus the moon and little small lights sprinkled throughout. The sun, moon and stars were considered to be small objects kind of stuck on the ceiling of the Earth.
The point is that by gathering knowledge, mankind of that time used the knowledge and his thinking apparatus to figure out that there is a solar system, a local galaxy, billions of other galaxies and so forth. Had your theory been in practice and accepted in those days, we would still be living now the same as we did then, still thinking we were floating on the backs of turtles. The apparatus which you claim can not provide any solutions has produced a bounty of powerful solutions which aid in living a fuller life. To me this is factual proof, manifested here on Earth that the theories which you assert as truths are just not true.
Lakey
Excellent post! You presented you material in a positive and thorough manner.
I would counter that 5,000 years ago, mankind believed that the Earth was flat and was supported on poles, on the backs of turtles swimming in a sea and under the sea was mud. The people of that time could not say what supported the mud, it just went down forever. Mankind believed it was possible to fall off the Earth into the sea and mud below. They believed there was only the Earth, which was the entire universe and the sky of the Earth had the Sun for heat plus the moon and little small lights sprinkled throughout. The sun, moon and stars were considered to be small objects kind of stuck on the ceiling of the Earth.
The point is that by gathering knowledge, mankind of that time used the knowledge and his thinking apparatus to figure out that there is a solar system, a local galaxy, billions of other galaxies and so forth. Had your theory been in practice and accepted in those days, we would still be living now the same as we did then, still thinking we were floating on the backs of turtles. The apparatus which you claim can not provide any solutions has produced a bounty of powerful solutions which aid in living a fuller life. To me this is factual proof, manifested here on Earth that the theories which you assert as truths are just not true.
Lakey
Vinaire
Sponsor
You are denying the qualities that are exemplified as GOD. So I suppose you are in denial of God too.
Also you do come across as an intellectual... while you deny intellectualism.
Sorry! But that is my observation... a capability in me that you are trying to downgrade...
You do have a way about you for people to reject your thinking outright.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
A point very well made!
There is knowledge out there already. It won't go away by closing our eyes to it.
But by looking at it and simplifying it, maybe we can get rid of all the inaccuracies in it.
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
“We who believe in our spiritual nature have a BIG TENT with plenty of room under it to accommodate people who feel there is no spirit.” Lake
Tell me what there is in a person that has a spiritual nature. Tell me what you think there is. Whatever you have known about it is all that presents itself as an answer. Each person will give a different answer. That’s what each individual will experience. There is nothing besides that. It is an act of futility to try and find the meaning of something that does not exist except in a separate self that is maintained by constantly using knowledge and thought …. and that knowledge and thought is differently construed in varying groups leading to debating and problems. Unless, as Nexus asked about, there is an absolute truth behind that spirit.
“People of both camps co-exist in peace, each trying to dig deeper and understand the meanings of life better so as to expand our potentials and lead better lives.” Lake
There is no problem with our present life. For thought there seems to be one because it extracts certain knowledge out of past pleasures and pains, compares the present with it, passes judgments, avoids the present by concocting a future and pursuing it. But for the comparisons that thought makes there is no problem with our life as it is; and there is no other life. It is precisely our thought of a better state that prevents us from coming to terms with our life as it is.
Tell me what there is in a person that has a spiritual nature. Tell me what you think there is. Whatever you have known about it is all that presents itself as an answer. Each person will give a different answer. That’s what each individual will experience. There is nothing besides that. It is an act of futility to try and find the meaning of something that does not exist except in a separate self that is maintained by constantly using knowledge and thought …. and that knowledge and thought is differently construed in varying groups leading to debating and problems. Unless, as Nexus asked about, there is an absolute truth behind that spirit.
“People of both camps co-exist in peace, each trying to dig deeper and understand the meanings of life better so as to expand our potentials and lead better lives.” Lake
There is no problem with our present life. For thought there seems to be one because it extracts certain knowledge out of past pleasures and pains, compares the present with it, passes judgments, avoids the present by concocting a future and pursuing it. But for the comparisons that thought makes there is no problem with our life as it is; and there is no other life. It is precisely our thought of a better state that prevents us from coming to terms with our life as it is.
Vinaire
Sponsor
Abilities to create, observe, determine are all spiritual...
If there is no problem then what are you trying to solve?
It seems to me that you are lying big time. You have a big problem that you are trying to sweep under the carpet. Aren't you?
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
Man's thinking has produced successful results in the material world making life more convenient for him. Who the hell would want to regress from that? But concerning living relations between man and man/man and nature the results have not improved. Look around.
nexus100
Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the universe operation can be looked at as a series of boxes. We have been climbing into smaller and smaller boxes as we have moved through the universe, in order to see smaller areas. Our vision as spirit apparently requires adjustment to see smaller areas, and that adjustment has turned into a one way street. We now tend operate a process of looking at smaller realities. Our box has gotten rather small compared to potential perspective.
It is possible to understand facts, such as the existence of galaxies and such, without increasing one's reality. One can occupy the same box of "willingness to see" certain things and not see others. When one operates that way, the "looking smaller" factor stays in play. We continue to see smaller areas because to see larger would mean backtracking into a reality we no longer believe exists. And that larger perspective reality is now clouded with emotion that must be addressed to see from that bigger space.
However all we have to do to see greater reality, to see what is there that we don't accept as true, is to intend to see it. That gets the ball rolling and eventually one crawls out of one box into another, larger one. And on and on. As one moves into the larger boxes overall understanding grows and the game gets lighter.
Looking into smaller spaces clearly means less overall understanding. It can reach the point that one can't move into realities even a bit outside one's own because one's box of vision is so compressed. War and other unpleasantries appear to get worse. As one moves into smaller "reality" areas, the move out is tougher. Human emotions of death and body pain and loss are still being created unconsiously, seeming to block the path. This is the reason Scientology and some other stuff seems to work. One addresses a fraction of that emotion and thinks the way is found. But the way is perspective, not unloading emotion, though that unloading is part of it.
I am convinced the bigger boxes, the larger perpectives, are there. It's just what you want to look at. It's up to the individual. As I've said before, I don't think this is any crusade or that anyone is going to be permanently "lost" no matter what they do. But life can likely be a lot more pleasant and understandable.
It is possible to understand facts, such as the existence of galaxies and such, without increasing one's reality. One can occupy the same box of "willingness to see" certain things and not see others. When one operates that way, the "looking smaller" factor stays in play. We continue to see smaller areas because to see larger would mean backtracking into a reality we no longer believe exists. And that larger perspective reality is now clouded with emotion that must be addressed to see from that bigger space.
However all we have to do to see greater reality, to see what is there that we don't accept as true, is to intend to see it. That gets the ball rolling and eventually one crawls out of one box into another, larger one. And on and on. As one moves into the larger boxes overall understanding grows and the game gets lighter.
Looking into smaller spaces clearly means less overall understanding. It can reach the point that one can't move into realities even a bit outside one's own because one's box of vision is so compressed. War and other unpleasantries appear to get worse. As one moves into smaller "reality" areas, the move out is tougher. Human emotions of death and body pain and loss are still being created unconsiously, seeming to block the path. This is the reason Scientology and some other stuff seems to work. One addresses a fraction of that emotion and thinks the way is found. But the way is perspective, not unloading emotion, though that unloading is part of it.
I am convinced the bigger boxes, the larger perpectives, are there. It's just what you want to look at. It's up to the individual. As I've said before, I don't think this is any crusade or that anyone is going to be permanently "lost" no matter what they do. But life can likely be a lot more pleasant and understandable.
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
The only problem I might have is thinking that I have a problem when there really is not one.
Vinaire
Sponsor
I haven't yet seen a computer create anything. Have you?
It is the programmer that introduces the creative element through programming.
It is not good to downgrade observation. You can use some good observation, FM. Please start learning to do so.
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finishedman
Patron with Honors
The actions of life are outside the field of thought. Life is simply a process of stimulus and response; and stimulus and response are one unitary movement. But it is thought that separates them and says that this is the response and that is the stimulus. Any action that is born out of thinking is destructive in its nature because thought is a self-perpetuating mechanism. Any action that is outside the field of thought is one continuous movement. It is one with the movement of life. It is a flow of things. You don't even have to paddle out of the mainstream on to the banks. But there is the fear of sinking in the flow.
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