OSAMA/OBAMA

[La La Lou Lou]

Enthetan, you are right I forgot Obama, it's not because I think he's perfect, I just don't think he should arrive at the gates at the same time as Bush and Rumps felt. There might be a political incident. I also don't get the feeling that he's convinced about his own actions as Rumsfeldt was, Bush probably still doesn't get why it went wrong.

It has been noted before that the winner gets to write history, for some dumb reason I thought that truth, honesty and right conduct mattered now. The British, Polish and American bombers that 'popped' many thousands of German non-combatants, flattening many towns and cities to the ground would have been tried for war crimes if Germany had won, but wear medals proudly simply because Germany lost. Perhaps there is no right or wrong, good and bad, just winner and looser.

War is shite who ever wins.

 

[Enthetan]

War is shite who ever wins.

William Sherman, a general from the American Civil War had strong opinions on the subject:

“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.”

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”

“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster”

“You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace.”

Jack Handey adds:

“I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.”

The British, Polish and American bombers that 'popped' many thousands of German non-combatants, flattening many towns and cities to the ground would have been tried for war crimes if Germany had won, but wear medals proudly simply because Germany lost. Perhaps there is no right or wrong, good and bad, just winner and loser.

And perhaps there is no difference between us and David Miscavige. Just because he and his cronies beat people, force women to have abortions, let children grow up in filth and ignorance in order to preserve their own power, that doesn't mean that he's bad and that we have any right to try to oppose him. Does it?

And just because Hitler put people in concentration camps and murdered millions, it doesn't mean he was bad and that there was any justification in people using force to stop him. Does it?

And just because Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot and the rest murdered people on a scale which dwarfs the Nazis, that does not justify opposing them. I'm sure we would all be happy living in a workers' paradise like North Korea.

And when some drugged out thug decides he wants to rape and murder my daughter, I should just let him, because who am I to judge him?

I'll tell you who I am to judge. I'm the guy who has decided that I, my family, my friends, and my country have a right to survive. I will value the lives of my wife and kids over the lives of ANYONE who thinks of harming them. I'm the guy who has decided that some lives are more precious than others, and that some cultures create a better environment than others, and I will defend what I value with my life. If that causes others to consider me a jingoistic, racist, sexist, reactionary neanderthal, then so be it.

I'll leave you with one of my more favorite quotes:

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Archaeologists have not to date found any evidence of Neanderthal warfare, concentration camps, nuclear weapons, biological weapons spitfires or water boarding units.

They have found no evidence of Neanderthal men taking opiates and Raping the daughters of people who post on this site. Nor have they found evidence of any Neanderthal actually posting on this site in between shooting any drug crazed would be rapists.

I don't think you are Neanderthal, just unfortunately Homo Sapiens, a much nastier breed. It would have been nice to have seen Homo Novis, shame he never turned up.

 

[boatswain]

Bad news for you Entheta - your favorite Orwell quote is a phony.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Alternative: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us."
In his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", Orwell claimed that the statement, "Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf" was a "grossly obvious" fact. "Notes on Nationalism"
Notes: allegedly said by George Orwell although there is no evidence that Orwell ever wrote or uttered either of these versions of this idea. They do bear some similarity to comments made in an essay that Orwell wrote on Rudyard Kipling, when quoting from one of his poems. Orwell did write, in his essay on Kipling, that the latter's "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." (1942)
"Yes, making mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep" - Rudyard Kipling (Tommy)
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it." - Aaron Sorkin (A Few Good Men)
Alternative: "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill (miscellaneous quotation, no date)

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Neither Osama's solution to the world's problems nor Obama's are comfortable for everyone.

Afghanistan, a deeply religious country produces most of the world's opium. (correct me if I'm wrong). There are many people, men women and children addicted to the stuff. The stuff gets to Europe and America, where it is used by people who turn to crime to feed their habit.

America is also a devoutly religious country.

Religion doesn't seem to make people act better.

Maybe the billions of dollars spent on the American and UK prisons let alone the money spent on military actions, (popping rag heads) could be better spent paying the farmers in Afghanistan to grow food to feed the hungry world Brussels sprouts. Or legally grow the opium for medical use and take the war lords and their henchmen out of the picture.

The problem is not the war between civilizations but greedy criminals being manipulated by irresponsible ideologists.

Someone has learned from History, it might have been Osama, I don't know. Britain held down China, 13 Million opium addicts in the nineteenth century, it destroyed the intelligentsia, and led to the oldest civilization crumbling. We sold them opium, they sold us tea and silk and blue and white ceramics. It was an evil thing to do, western imperialism is not pleasant.

Russia during the cold war allowed the opium and marijuana to travel through to the west, encouraged it, they had learned from the best.

So who is doing it now?

Why is one percent of America in Prison? (UK isn't far behind)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5LbpnjQQMc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TpFlOioXys

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

Just to add some balance here, here's a clip about the Norwegian Prison Island.

Now I know punishment is important to some people. You will call this lefty liberal bollocks, but really look, punishment desn't work though, look at the stats! Compare America with Norway. I spent years in the RPF, it didn't turn me into a better person. It turned me away from people. I still remember the looks I got from people who post here. Being treated like a criminal does not turn you into a good human being. Being forced to eat beans and rice never made stats go up. Having to do mest work because you were in doubt doesn't make you more ethical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3SMiDvjdg

Osama's solution would be for a thief the removal of the thief's right hand, and probably prison as well. Obama presumably supports the enforced labour RPF style prison, without the tech and with guys dropping soap in the showers.

 

[Thrak]

The problem is not the war between civilizations but greedy criminals being manipulated by irresponsible ideologists.

Someone has learned from History, it might have been Osama, I don't know. Britain held down China, 13 Million opium addicts in the nineteenth century, it destroyed the intelligentsia, and led to the oldest civilization crumbling. We sold them opium, they sold us tea and silk and blue and white ceramics. It was an evil thing to do, western imperialism is not pleasant.

I don't know if I would call it Western Imperialism. To me it's just criminal conduct. I was kind of talking about that a few pages ago when comparing people to animals.

For the human race to survive long term it has to some how further evolve it's sense of empathy. It seems religions often seem to make that go the other way. scn for sure makes that worse with it's long list of bad names for undesirables.

But it also seems empathy is sort of a cultural thing. Like in one place it is a custom to treat people decently in others it's ok to treat them like shit.

I grew up in the South East US which to me is a pretty fucked up place. In my opinion slavery was what screwed it up. It seems that once you cross the line and decide it's ok to treat people like dogs, those same tendencies cross the racial lines and the next thing you know families are ripping themselves apart. The level of emotional violence there can be pretty revolting. But there are also some really good people there too.

Anyway here is a song that boils this sort of thing down better than any other I've found. I posted the lyrics too they're brutal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4g1i-lvYWA


Steve Earle, The Truth Lyrics

Artist: Earle Steve
Song: The Truth
Album: Jerusalem

In the blue of the evenin' when the sun is low
There's a shadow that creeps across my cell block floor
And it comes to remind me what I'm in here for

No, I'm not admittin' that I done the crime
I'm only gettin' down to doin' time
And the passin' of days is no concern of mine

There's a guard on the second shift comes on at three
And he's always about a half inch off of me
Like he needs to keep remindin' me that I'm not free

God forgive him 'cause he doesn't see
He's no less a prisoner 'cause he holds a key
And God forbid he turn his back on me

For every wall you build around your fear
A thousand darker things are born in here
And they're fed on contempt for all that you hold dear

The truth is it doesn't matter what you do
'Til you gaze in that mirror with an eye that's true
And admit that what scares you is the me in you

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Very nice words, especially this verse...

The truth is it doesn't matter what you do
'Til you gaze in that mirror with an eye that's true
And admit that what scares you is the me in you

I think you right about empathy, also in the Norwegian clip there's another key point, that in Norway there is very little difference between people, no real poverty or super rich. Where there is a big gap between rich and poor there is also an absence in empathy.

There's a universe that divides Donald Trump and a young black guy who was sexually abused as kid by his parish priest, saw his parents murdered when he was 10 and who finds it hard to hold down a job. Some people make it big, clambering over their family and friends on the way because of difficulties and some just take the crystal meth. Fairer societies are more pleasant and have the stats to prove it.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

False. Osama has stated he was responsible for 9/11 multiple times on video and audio.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html


http://classic-web.archive.org/web/...findia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1550477.cms

It has been shown in the so-called "confession" video that the local and national "overlays" of text were encoded in the same layer proving the tape a forgery, and he looks nothing like OBL.

 

[Enthetan]

I don't think you are Neanderthal, just unfortunately Homo Sapiens, a much nastier breed. It would have been nice to have seen Homo Novis, shame he never turned up.

The problem with Homo Novis is that he never shows up. Jean-Jacques Rousseau wanted a New Man who would implement his ideas. The Jacobins of the French Revolution tried to implement some of his ideas, and got only slaughter. Then later Lenin yearned for the New Soviet Man. That resulted in more millions dead.

The problem with many theories about ideal and perfect societies is that they don't work with people as they are, and attempts to change people into perfect, altruistic, peaceful beings tends to result in failure and mass murder.

Ron yearned for Homo Novis. The only reason his schemes did not end up in mass murder was that he never quite got the power. In the process, Ron did manage to wreck a bunch of lives.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

So true Enthetan, Homo Sapiens, or Homo Novis, women often complain that men never come when you want them to.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

The problem with Homo Novis is that he never shows up. Jean-Jacques Rousseau wanted a New Man who would implement his ideas. The Jacobins of the French Revolution tried to implement some of his ideas, and got only slaughter. Then later Lenin yearned for the New Soviet Man. That resulted in more millions dead.

The problem with many theories about ideal and perfect societies is that they don't work with people as they are, and attempts to change people into perfect, altruistic, peaceful beings tends to result in failure and mass murder.

Ron yearned for Homo Novis. The only reason his schemes did not end up in mass murder was that he never quite got the power. In the process, Ron did manage to wreck a bunch of lives.

To get to Homo Novis, we still have to pass through Homo Superior first.

So true Enthetan, Homo Sapiens, or Homo Novis, women often complain that men never come when you want them to.

I think Homo Sapiens has always had a problem with "early arrival".

 

[Enthetan]

Bad news for you Entheta - your favorite Orwell quote is a phony.

Regardless of who said it, it happens to be a true statement, which is probably why it has been spread around so much.

Here in the US, we have a group of people called the Amish, who are extreme pacifists. They will not use violence even in self defense. They tend to live non-technological lives in rural Pennsylvania and elsewhere, not using electricity nor internal combustion engines. They earn their own way and don't bother their neighbors.

The only reason why they are able to survive as extreme pacifists is that they live under the protection of a society that has armed men protecting them.

The fact of life among humans on Earth is that some percentage of the human race is pathological. Rather than work, they prefer to steal. There are men who enjoy raping women, or who see it as less of a bother than doing the work of gaining consent. There are people who enjoy killing for the fun of it, or who see nothing wrong with killing somebody because they felt insulted. Human society can only function when the harm these pathological humans cause is held to a low level, by means of removing them from society. The method of removal is currently to put them in prison, or to kill them when lesser means of removal are not viable.

Meanwhile, we have other humans who enjoy the relatively peaceful society while having contempt for the methods that are used to keep them safe.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Enthetan, did you watch the clip about the Norwegian prison?

There are places where it is not normal to see rape and gun crime where drugs are not being pushed by pimps and Mafia.

Sometimes you are like a budgie in a cage unable to look past the bars.

Scandinavians are not surrounded by armed police, there was no big massacre of the innocents in Oslo. There is no harsh dictatorship. People treat each other with respect, they are all on about the same level of pay, including their Royals, unemployment pay is adequate to survive on. There is respect for the individual.



The fact of life is that there are far more people per head in American Jails than anywhere else. That does not mean that Americans are horrible people, it means that the system over there breeds criminality. It means that life in America has a flaw that the Scandinavian model does not have.

 

[Thrak]

Enthetan, did you watch the clip about the Norwegian prison?

There are places where it is not normal to see rape and gun crime where drugs are not being pushed by pimps and Mafia.

Sometimes you are like a budgie in a cage unable to look past the bars.

Scandinavians are not surrounded by armed police, there was no big massacre of the innocents in Oslo. There is no harsh dictatorship. People treat each other with respect, they are all on about the same level of pay, including their Royals, unemployment pay is adequate to survive on. There is respect for the individual.



The fact of life is that there are far more people per head in American Jails than anywhere else. That does not mean that Americans are horrible people, it means that the system over there breeds criminality. It means that life in America has a flaw that the Scandinavian model does not have.

I think Charles Manson said something like "there's not a person I picked up that somebody else didn't throw out." The US has a very inside/outside type of culture.
If you are one of the lucky ones life can be great, if you are not so lucky you can be on the outside looking in. The PTS to the Middle Class thing was one thing Hubbard wrote that I agreed with. I was talking to a friend the other day from Holland about some of this stuff and he mentioned the term caste system. That's exactly what it is.

I believe this is where a lot of the criminality comes from. It is a very competitive society but the game is rigged for some to win it all just by nature of what family they were born into. Others can try all they want and never gain acceptance and legitimacy. That creates a bit of resentment.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Thrak, yes the caste system is not too good.

After the war the UK became much less class concious, the gap between rich and poor shrank, policemen had no guns but that all changed when Maggie Thatcher closed down the coal mines and ship building, encouraged the City with all the bonuses and big deals, cut taxes for the rich and gave increases to the poor. Now the police carry weapons and the top guys in government all went to posh and expensive schools. Britain no longer manufactures much and all the money comes from financial services or making weapons (about the only thing still made in the UK, apart from car parts)

The caste system is back. The gap has increased and now Britain is catching up on America for prison occupation.

 

[Enthetan]

Thrak, yes the caste system is not too good.

After the war the UK became much less class concious, the gap between rich and poor shrank, policemen had no guns but that all changed when Maggie Thatcher closed down the coal mines and ship building, encouraged the City with all the bonuses and big deals, cut taxes for the rich and gave increases to the poor. Now the police carry weapons and the top guys in government all went to posh and expensive schools. Britain no longer manufactures much and all the money comes from financial services or making weapons (about the only thing still made in the UK, apart from car parts)

The caste system is back. The gap has increased and now Britain is catching up on America for prison occupation.

Britain has actually passed the US as far as crime rates are concerned. Graph below from the International Crime Victims Survey.

As you will notice, In 1988 England's crime rate was well below the US's. Since then, the US's crime rate has gone down, while England's has gone up. All this in 15 years.

Why do you think that is?

 

[VaD]

This discussion has lost its sense for me.

I don't see any value in discussing it any further.

 

[paradox]

Thrak, yes the caste system is not too good.

After the war the UK became much less class concious, the gap between rich and poor shrank, policemen had no guns but that all changed when Maggie Thatcher closed down the coal mines and ship building, encouraged the City with all the bonuses and big deals, cut taxes for the rich and gave increases to the poor. Now the police carry weapons and the top guys in government all went to posh and expensive schools. Britain no longer manufactures much and all the money comes from financial services or making weapons (about the only thing still made in the UK, apart from car parts)

The caste system is back. The gap has increased and now Britain is catching up on America for prison occupation.

Interesting BBC documentary I ran across last week that addresses much of this. Also some striking parallels with the development of $cn admin, I think.

The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom is a BBC documentary series by English filmmaker Adam Curtis, well known for other documentaries including The Century of the Self and The Power of Nightmares. It began airing on BBC Two on 11 March 2007.

The series consists of three, one-hour programmes which explore the concept and definition of freedom, specifically "how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today's idea of freedom.

Individual freedom is the dream of our age. It's what our leaders promise to give us, it defines how we think of ourselves and, repeatedly, we have gone to war to impose freedom around the world. But if you step back and look at what freedom actually means for us today, it's a strange and limited kind of freedom.

Politicians promised to liberate us from the old dead hand of bureaucracy, but they have created an evermore controlling system of social management, driven by targets and numbers. Governments committed to freedom of choice have presided over a rise in inequality and a dramatic collapse in social mobility. And abroad, in Iraq and Afghanistan, the attempt to enforce freedom has led to bloody mayhem and the rise of an authoritarian anti-democratic Islamism. This, in turn, has helped inspire terrorist attacks in Britain. In response, the Government has dismantled long-standing laws designed to protect our freedom.

The Trap is a series of three films by Bafta-winning producer Adam Curtis that explains the origins of our contemporary, narrow idea of freedom.

It shows how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today's idea of freedom. This model was derived from ideas and techniques developed by nuclear strategists during the Cold War to control the behaviour of the Soviet enemy.

Mathematicians such as John Nash developed paranoid game theories whose equations required people to be seen as selfish and isolated creatures, constantly monitoring each other suspiciously -- always intent on their own advantage.

This model was then developed by genetic biologists, anthropologists, radical psychiatrists and free market economists, and has come to dominate both political thinking since the Seventies and the way people think about themselves as human beings.

However, within this simplistic idea lay the seeds of new forms of control. And what people have forgotten is that there are other ideas of freedom. We are, says Curtis, in a trap of our own making that controls us, deprives us of meaning and causes death and chaos abroad.

Each part, 59 min segments

Part 1 - The Trap
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085#docid=-8420724845321066025

Part 2 - The Lonely Robot
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085#docid=-1087742888040457650

Part 3 - We Will Force You To Be Free
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085#docid=4486343328817737043

 

[Enthetan]

Interesting BBC documentary I ran across last week that addresses much of this. Also some striking parallels with the development of $cn admin, I think.

Each part, 59 min segments

I'm sorry, I just don't have the time to watch three hours of video right now.

For my part, I'll give you a link that I think gives a good picture of England's crime problem,using much less time. It is a list of the UK's most wanted criminals. Clicking on a picture will give the name and biographical info.

In a nutshell, England, like much of Europe, is becoming more open, and criminals from high-crime regions are migrating to previously-low-crime regions (where people are less habituated to protecting themselves from crime, and there's more to steal).

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

Why is one percent of America in Prison? (UK isn't far behind)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TpFlOioXys

...

Now I know punishment is important to some people. You will call this lefty liberal bollocks, but really look, punishment desn't work though, look at the stats! Compare America with Norway. I spent years in the RPF, it didn't turn me into a better person. It turned me away from people. I still remember the looks I got from people who post here. Being treated like a criminal does not turn you into a good human being. Being forced to eat beans and rice never made stats go up. Having to do mest work because you were in doubt doesn't make you more ethical.

I went and looked up one of the "three strikes" people the Brit commentator was so shocked by. The one who got 50 years for stealing video tapes.
Here's the rest of the story

One was Leandro Andrade, arrested twice in San Bernardino County in November 1995 for stealing nine videos of children's movies, including "Snow White" and "Cinderella."

A heroin addict, he had seven previous convictions. None of the convictions were for violent crimes, but three were for residential burglaries that were classified as strikes. With that criminal history, he was given third-strike sentences of 25 years to life for each of the two video shoplifting convictions. He will not be eligible for parole until he is 87. He was 37 when he stole the videos.

Ewing, who has AIDS and is blind in one eye, was arrested in May 2000 while limping out of a pro shop in El Segundo (Los Angeles County) with three golf clubs worth $399 each stuffed down a pants leg.

He had nine previous convictions, including three burglaries and a robbery in which he brandished a knife. The grand theft conviction normally carried a maximum three-year sentence, but he was given a third-strike term of 25 to life. Thirty-eight years old at the time of the golf club theft, he won't be eligible for parole until age 63.

The rationale behind "three strikes" is that there are two main types of criminals: (1) the person who commits a crime, is caught, punished, and decides to straightens out his life and not do crime any more, versus (2) the career criminal, somebody who is a criminal by profession, and will not straighten out.

Career criminals, people who support themselves through crime, must commit a LOT of crimes to provide a living income. By focusing on career criminals and making sure they are put away until they are too old to be dangerous, you can reduce the crime problem.

With people who have demonstrated that they WILL NOT change, there are only three things that can be done: (1) put them away in prison, (2) kill them, or (3) submit to having them in society committing crimes.

For myself, I've managed to get to my gray-haired state without spending any time in prison, or even being arrested. None of the people I went to college with, that I've kept in touch with, have gone to prison. It's possible to stay out of prison with just a little bit of effort.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Thrak, yes the caste system is not too good.

After the war the UK became much less class concious, the gap between rich and poor shrank, policemen had no guns but that all changed when Maggie Thatcher closed down the coal mines and ship building, encouraged the City with all the bonuses and big deals, cut taxes for the rich and gave increases to the poor. Now the police carry weapons and the top guys in government all went to posh and expensive schools. Britain no longer manufactures much and all the money comes from financial services or making weapons (about the only thing still made in the UK, apart from car parts)

That is total crap. "Less class conscious"??? The main money in the UK and in England has sat with the landed gentry for centuries and NONE of that changed either in the 40's or later. Did you have any evidence for the assertion?

Armed police came along long before Thatcher and mainly in response to the IRA bombing campaigns and the "troubles" - which, if you remember, started in 1968.

Manufacturing in England went downhill under Labour - not Thatcher - or did you forget the sorry arse "British Leyland" - formed in 1968 and which went under finally in 2005 - the first part before Thatcher and the last part after her and during, wait for it, a Labour administration.

Ship building - again - did you not remember that the Clyde Shipyards were shut down by bankruptcy in 1968, once again before Maggie and during a Labour party administration. Wow thus far you did not manage to get many facts right.

The top guys in politics almost all (from both Parties) went to public schools and - in fact - your favorite target in this rant, Thatcher - went to a local school in Grantham

The caste system is back. The gap has increased and now Britain is catching up on America for prison occupation.

so this would be the result of 13 years of Labour? you are dreaming if you are trying to assert that the caste system went anywhere.