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Out of Body with perception? Still like the idea?

Discussion in 'Human Potential, Self Discovery' started by Veda, May 11, 2019.

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  1. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I don't really want to get into a metaphysical discussion with anyone about 'spirituality' and the creation of the universe because I know and can comprehend so very little about it, but you write as though all that were now fully understood and all questions nicely put to bed, at least that is what the sentence of yours I've highlighted would lead me to believe. Where on earth do you get the utter and complete certainty to speak to these matters in such an unequivocal and authoritative way?
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
    Me and My Self, Bill and Little David like this.
  2. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well, Strattie, I know it can be a bit provocative to see someone speaking with degrees of certainty on such a new or contentious subject . . . but the simple answer to your question as voiced, is, from my having been there and done it.

    I only invite others to also go, have a look. I'm not in the business of trying to prove anything or convince anyone: history shows that is a fool's endeavor . . . folks have to be willing to go look and see for themselves.

    Alan Walter wrote on this issue in his book "Gods in Disguise": there are fifteen spiritual Domains of Existence (spiritual universes) prior to the development of the physical universe . . . . I discovered the spiritual universes before the physical universe while on OT3 in 1977, it was not known in Scn tech at the time, and after I wrote to Hubbard on the point, that truth was added to the correction lists for the upper levels.

    Today I have a team of researchers who are true scientists working with me on this. Two key guys/gals were never in Scn.

    I don't know when you joined ESMB, Strattie, as you have your profile restricted . . . but back in the beginning of 2009 I wrote a post relative to this. It dealt with me accidentally spotting the prior scene to the physical universe and the why it persists . . . this in 1963.

    Here is the link to the write up, depending on how you have your ESMB page set up, it is on the bottom of my page 5."]A brief breakdown of the 8 OT levels

    And actually, if we look at what I actually wrote, again: " the patterns and forms of spiritual Life-Force I mentioned are and were VERY MUCH within us as Life, and were so before the development of the physical universe" . . . we should not find it too hard to see some applicability, logic and truth in it.

    It is rather similar to me flooring a physicist recently. He was of the usual cast of physics thinkers: having problems resolving Einstein's space-time thingies, and what IS time.

    I pointed out to him that, in fact, he was doing it all the time as every day he engages in creating time. When he protested "HOW!?!" I said; "Envision the future of what you will do differently for breakfast tomorrow."

    He did, and began to manifest change in demeanor . . . then I said: "Notice that you actually created the time, and the space and with the physical items there?"

    People are so used to the automaticities they have running in their lives, they do not see their actual causation.
  3. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Thanks Rog, I appreciate you taking the time to write such a detailed post in response to mine.

    You quote your colleague AW here:
    Am I supposed to just accept that at face value? There doesn't seem to be any intimation at HOW he arrived at these profound conclusions, and from my point of view I don't see where it differs from 1001 other weirdo crank pseudo-scientific movements, so thanks, but no thanks, I'm done with all that and I'm sticking with quantum physics, that's plenty weird enough for me.
  4. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Cool . . . :) You are not supposed to anything :D You are certainly entitled to stay with whatever you are comfortable with.

    And Quantum Physics IS weird, the boys who invented it and practice it all agree it is:p

    PS: it was me that discovered the earlier universes in '77 and reported to Hubbs. Alan wrote his book in around 1994.
  5. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Also, Strattie, was just thinking we are lucky Vinaire is no longer frequenting our ESMB . . . he'd be talking us to death, and rendering the dissertations of the Indian ancients to teach us what is:D
  6. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    You are supposed to accept it if:

    1. the items read on an e-meter

    2. you got cog, VGIs, F/N in auditing

    3. you had F/N with examiner in Qual after session

    4. no correction list ever needed to be done after that

    5. whatever is true for you is true for you (unless you get sent to Ethics)

    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  7. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Well Roger, I presume you have read The Pilot's works - I knew Ken Ogger - both in LA and in NYC. He once told me he went so far out of the universe, it looked like a small ball of cotton your hand. He discussed earlier universes in his writings as The Pilot - do they align with your scheme of things?

    A person I know described a sort of exteriorization with… well, no perceptions.

    She stepped outside the space time continuum and there was only blackness. Or maybe it was an absence of everything. I presume she ceased creating the universe ( for herself ) and then changed her mind, recreated it and it returned.

  8. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    That's simply awesome Rog. A Nobel prize should be coming your way any time soon eh, I hope you'll still talk to us plebs after you get it.
  9. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    6. You can turn it around and make money off of it yourself.
    programmer_guy likes this.
  10. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Programmer-Guy wrote:
    Nice to see you giving your contribution a nice big Green Smile there, PG. That Edwin Hutchins quote had me read and re-read it as it is somewhat ambiguously written: it took me a bit of doodling to see what the final “it” was in the quote . . . and the quote is not in his wiki.

    But it is a brilliant quote you have chosen as, of course, “human cognition” (awareness) is affected by the complex sociocultural world it is situated in. And that is precisely why folks have and/or exhibit the variations and even the limitations of perception they display.

    Mimsey wrote:
    Mimsey, I’ve read only some of the Pilot’s stuff . . . I know Alan did it all.

    Yes, the interesting thing is, as noted above, different folks have different experiences and levels of awareness and also different perceptions to each other when they “exteriorize” . . . and to be noted is the fact that there are a lot of things an individual can exteriorize from, examples: the body, the physical universe, the limit of present TIME or past-or-future, limited “here space,” etc. One can even go exterior to one’s mind!

    Alan described the physical universe as having the appearance of a small golden orb when he exteriorized out of it. I have not seen that nor what The Pilot described as I did not and have not exteriorized in the manner that they have or did. They obviously exteriorized to view the Physical Universe (PU) as it is in relative Present Time.

    Relative to the PU, my several exteriorizations were a) from my body to be within and throughout the PU and, b) differently, to different time locations on the time stream prior to the existence of the PU.

    It is to be noted that these events have occurred over a 61 year period of time. Both in processing sessions and in life, particularly at time of stress or demand as in athletic performance or real threat to life.

    Alan did a definitive write-up of the sequence of “universes” (actually, as he later agreed with me, they are/were, “our Domains of Spiritual existence.”) in his book, “Gods in Disguise.” (Of which I have a Word Doc., original manuscript version as well as the published hard copy.)

    But basically, in my view, the reason why folks have these different “perceptions” or experiences of what they see or are aware of when they go through these variations of the basic theme of exteriorization, is they take with them their particular case manifestation(s) and these affect, limit or alter what they can see or be aware of . . . just as we see case alters perception and behavior in PT and as noted by PG’s quote of Edwin Hutchins above.

    The obvious fact is, we are all individuals and do have our individual expressions of altered perceptions, limitations of awareness and abilities and powers and such.

    To be honest, it is observable that those who are into debunking these reported experiences are simply demonstrating they are denying perception . . . that is, a refusal to see what is there to be perceived. I’ve been there, done it in my earlier years. I was convinced I was only a meat body and there was no spiritual existence. But when, surprisingly, you become aware of being separate to the body and you are dealing with the PU directly . . . . it is time to get real :bow: or go nuts! :dizzy:

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  11. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Apparently you chose to go nuts and Walters chose to die young.
  12. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    This is so arrogant, pretentious and condescending, RogerB. Even for you.

    Your senses are no different than anyone else's.
    Bill likes this.
  13. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well said.

    While Roger, Walters, Oggers, have every right to pontificate about what they have found to be "The Truth", it is quite annoying. Many times they don't say "Personally, I have found..." or "I believe..." or "It appears to me that..." but, instead, say "it is this way", "it is obvious...", "it is observable..." and so on, assuming that what they believe to be true is, in fact, universally true.

    It appears that, while criticizing Hubbard because he codified his personal case into the "tech", they make the same mistake in assuming their perceptions were/are The Truth for everyone. I think a little humility might work better.

    In my opinion, the lesson to be learned from Hubbard is that the world doesn't need such a "guru". We didn't need Hubbard and we certainly don't need anyone to step into his shoes.
    Me and My Self likes this.
  14. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    My point exactly. We're told about '15 spiritual Domains of Existence' as though they're a well established fact, whereas in truth they're a figment of someone's over-active imagination IN MY OPINION!
    Me and My Self, JustSheila and Bill like this.
  15. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    Sorry Rog, but If I had made the discoveries that you claim to have made, and had the abilities to go with it, I doubt I'd be posting on ESMB. They're a bunch of SPs. Why would you be wasting your time here? You're hardly likely to convince anybody.

    No, I'd be off selling my wares somewhere else if I had a route out of the physical universe, tried and tested, and knew the names/routes to the 15 planes of spiritual existence. I wouldn't be wasting my time discussing it on ESMB.

    You have played the old "if they don't agree with my point of view, then it must be because they are too blind to see it" card, so let me see you, and raise you $10. Osmosis tells me that nobody who posts on ESMB has achieved out-of-this-universe enlightenment: they would know their audience, and know that this isn't it.

    No, anybody who posts such spiritual certainties here is just a pretender, in my opinion. Sorry - I like you, and I think you have nothing but the best of intentions. But you wouldn't be posting here if you had the knowledge (and the gains that go with it) that you claim to have. I don't mean to stamp on your good intentions, and I certainly applaud your desire to uncover spiritual truths. But at the same time, many of us are sick of gurus claiming they have achieved something that, in fact, they still only aspire to achieving. Hubbard was like that. My impression of a lot of his writings was that he'd have an idea one day, like "I wonder if it would be possible to exteriorise from the MEST Universe?" and then the next day he was writing a book in which he was saying "well, that's all licked now. With 150 hours of processing we can extract a Pre-OT from the MEST Universe." It's all salacious reading, but if it's merely aspirational, then it should SAY it is aspirational. Otherwise, it is simply lying to people.

    By the way, you and Alan missed one. There are actually SIXTEEN prior spiritual universes, not fifteen. ETA: Hubbard said the MEST universe was a two-terminal universe. But he should have added that a thetan is a two-universe terminal: universes come in twos, so there were 16, not 15. It's rudimentary, really.
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  16. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Yeh, geez! :duh:

    The unbelievable guru-ish arrogance of stating a person's personal interpretation of what they envision is some sort of universal truth and that those that don't see that his way is correct are suffering from some malady or limitation of perception or they would... :wtf:

    You're a nice guy and all and I'm sure you mean well, RogerB, but sometimes you sound like you have quite a Messiah complex! Let people have their own interpretations and quit trying to force your personal beliefs and interpretations on others, please!

    A messiah complex (also known as the Christ complex or savior complex) is a state of mind in which an individual holds a belief that they are destined to become a savior.[1] The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that he or she is responsible for saving or assisting others.
    The term "messiah complex" is not addressed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), as it is not a clinical term nor diagnosable disorder. However, the symptoms of the disorder closely resemble those found in individuals suffering from delusions of grandeur. An account specifically identified it as a category of religious delusion, which pertains to strong fixed beliefs that cause distress or disability.[2] This form of delusional belief is most often reported in patients suffering from bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.
    strativarius likes this.
  17. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I have found that my describing my OOBs only pisses people off, if they have not had similar experiences of their own. That's why I only brag about my OT ability to find parking spaces.


  18. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well, my Dears . . . I simply answered the questions asked :cool:

    Some want to know, some do not:oops:

    It's that simple. It's the same thing on health topics . . . when folks ask a question, and if I have an answer, I offer it.

    This here is no different than when I was researching advanced athletic performance . . . there were always those stuck in the older operating paradigm who could not accept the advances we made, and who would not even investigate what was going on, but only criticize and reject it. They kept trying to tell us we would "burn out and/or over-train" . . . the rest of the world then adopted our methods after the Ozzie swim team beat the pants off everyone else in the Melbourne, 1956, Olympics.
  19. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I suppose I play the part of a little guru -- a gurulet -- with regard to my Rub & Yawn and PaulsRobot stuff, but it's really so plain and easy to try for oneself in the here and now. At no cost in the comfort of your own home yada yada.

    My view on the long, long ago stuff is one can have personal revelations about this and that, but they are personal, i.e., subjective. And should stay that way.

    I met Ken Ogger at an SP get-together in LA in 2004. I was curious, as I had spent 100 hours or so with his Self-Clearing work, never tried auditing his fanciful "whole track" stuff. I said hello, immediately decided he was an arrogant twat and not worth talking to further, and that was that.

  20. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Here is a world class, famous scientist speaking on the subject at hand. For any who are unfamiliar with him, it is worthwhile checking both his credentials and his work.

    Dr. Bruce Lipton : "Your Body Is An Illusion" This Video Will Literally Blow Your Mind!


    What is not addressed in this short video is, who or what is emanating the "waves."