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PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religion

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Panda Termint, Sep 11, 2011.

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  1. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    I know, and I think you speak well on the subject.
     
  2. Markus

    Markus Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    As long as you are a Scientologist you are IN the cult even if you are physically out - this is what I have observed. Let me repeat a quote from this video here so maybe you will get what I mean:

    It is from around 1 hour and 35 minutes:

    "You can not take Hubbard out of Scientology and Hubbard was a psychopath and the whole process of Scientology I believe installs in a person a psychopathic condition in which they don't have any guilt, they lie with relative impunity, they feel totally good about lying, they don't care for their fellow human beings, they have no remorse and I believe that it is in most cases a temporary condition because you can see that when someone leaves the Scientology program becomes again reestablished as a wog as an ordinary human being, as homo sapiens - most of them become decent contributing citizens again.
    But it is well known , that a psychopatic condition can be installed in a group - the mafia is something similar, you saw it in the German history - a glaring example where people completely lost their humanity. So it becomes a sort of a mob thing and you can not get away from it unless you leave Scientology and those people have not left Scientology." Gerry is talking about Mike and Marty here......


    Love
    Markus
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  3. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Here is a statement. I would like to know what and how any person disagrees with this.

    As long as a person practices some aspect of Scientology without hurting anyone else, with no disconnections, no fair game, no lying, no exaggerated PR (beyond the normal human tendency), no hard sell, no organized deceit, no OSA, no attacking people with differing opinions, no extreme KSW fanaticism that "only we hold the truth" (understanding that most ANY people in ANY religion believe that they and ONLY they "have the truth"), well, then I feel that they can believe and do whatever they choose, and their right to do so should be defended.

    Note: Any person who contributes to the Church of Scientology, no matter what the intention and whether one is aware of this or not, is supporting a system of lies, deceit, propoganda, and active intentional harm to innocent people. I am NOT including card-carrying C of S members in the above hypothetical.

    What would need to be added or subtracted to make the above statement acceptable to YOU?

    I really am curious, because I truly do NOT understand some of the arguments that have popped up on this thread.

    And, please be SPECIFIC. Comments like "stop the brain-washing", or "Hubbard was a psychopath" do nothing to add in any way (outside of the poster's imagination and delusion). Give examples. Make an actual POINT. Actually say something. PLEASE!
     
  4. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Thank God!

    scientolgy comes from bat shit crazy Hubbard. scientology is bat shit crazy. people who follow or adhere to or promote are bat shit crazy.

    I am extremely pleased you do not understand bat shit crazy, that speaks well for you !
     
  5. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    A recent New Yorker cartoon:

    Drawing: Woman sitting on living couch, arms folded. Man sitting in chair, leaning forward, telling a young boy:

    Caption: "Your mother and I are separating because I want to do what's right for the country, and she doesn't."

    :roflmao:
     
  6. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    :thumbsup:
    :hysterical:

    If I didn't know you were being a smart-ass (a GOOD thing), I might have taken you seriously and reacted! :confused2:

    Good dramatic example of the nuttiness that at times appears on this discussion board.
     
  7. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    A recent New Yorker cartoon:

    Drawing: Woman sitting on living couch, arms folded. Man sitting in a chair, leaning forward, telling a young boy:

    Caption: "Your mother and I are separating because I want to do what's right for the country, and she doesn't."

    :roflmao:
     
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Suggest reading the 'Aberee' magazine, published from 1955 -1964. The insanity was manifesting long before 'KSW'.

    In 1963, there was LRH bust tech, instructions for proper attitude towards and treatment of LRH bronze busts.

    In 1961, there was Security Checking, and "Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard." Hubbard explained, in a lecture, that the reason for that question was that a person, not on good terms (i.e. with "unkind thoughts") with the Source of a Scientology (himself), would not make gains.

    1965 is a convenient date, but Scientology was pretty nutty and very much a cult before 1965.
     
  9. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Yeah, I know that. I simply refer to KSW as the "quintessential policy issue" that really codified the insanity once and for all into "exact form".

    Reading the KSW #1 issue is like reading a detailed roadmap of the notions that lead directly to fanaticism. The 1965 issue is where it really "all came together".
     
  10. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    I think its too early for this discussion. Most know now that Scientology has been an organised criminal conspiracy to defraud ever since L Ron Hubbard said he used Dianetics to cure war injuries. Later on, once the cult has been dismantled, then consideration can be given to defending whatever remains as per the caveats you have mentioned. At this stage, support for Scientology per se amounts to a de facto defence of the official organisation and provides leverage for the religious cloaking of what, IMHO, is a spiritual mafia. Even after the cult has been disposed of, is it really in the best interests of its adherents to leave them exposed to on-going fraud? If so, we might as well defend pyramid schemes - the initial returns can certainly be quite impressive but, ultimately, its still a fraud.
     
  11. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Ah, but many of us live in a country where Ku Klux Klanners are allowed to believe as they wish and to demonstrate, parade and write freely.
     
  12. apocalyptic

    apocalyptic Patron with Honors

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Which same country has the highest crime rate (and imprisonment rate) in the entire world, in regard to rape, robbery and murder'.

    Please. The inference is spiritually painful. Ok, philosophically painful. Same pain.

    apoc
     
  13. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    In the US, people like the KKKers can speak freely and they don't get elected. In Europe, where there are far more laws about that, you actually see far right wingers get elected.

    And the murder and violent crime rates are down in most major cities in the US. Just stay away from E St Louis.
     
  14. Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    With the KKK what you see is what you get, I have no problem with people being allowed to exercise their freedom of speech no matter how much I disagree with what they are saying, Scientology on the other hand is exclusively about deception not freedom of speech. I would equate Hubbard's Cult to the Mafia setting up shop in your neighborhood as an organization called 'Friends of Mother Teresa' and then using Priest Costumes when they go out to break kneecaps.
     
  15. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    :hysterical: Sheet! This comment had me rolling in the aisles!! Priceless!!! :hysterical:
     
  16. Markus

    Markus Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    If a Ku Klux Klan would have hurt me or my family I would be active on another Board exposing their lies and criminal activities.

    Love
    Markus
     
  17. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    That above is actually very good, Gadfly, though a little incomplete.

    There is no doubt about the fact that in any civil society, folks do have the right to believe whatever silly shit they choose to believe in, and that right to believe as they do individually must be honored and protected.

    Similarly the right to not believe in such silly shit must be honored and protected, and certainly it must be protected from physical threat and/or coercion from "believers."

    So, to your little missive above, since you ask, :) I would add the following: so long as they do not interfere with the freedoms of association and of movement--the freedom to coma and go as one chooses--- and as long as they do not violate the wishes and wants and freedom of choice of any individual; then they are free to believe as they wish and free to practice their beliefs without harm or violation of others.

    In other words, take down the bloody barbed wire and let those who wish to walk out of the slave camp go! And yes . . . free Heber!

    Rog
     
  18. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Thank-you Rog! A very good addition indeed.

    I just might add that when it comes to be people like Heber, while it might look like it is the "barbed wire" that is keeping them in, the REAL walls that keep any of them "in" are their own dumb Scientology notions. The prison of beliefs is very effective.

    If anyone actually "got out" and could provide honest and legitimate reports of force and violence aimed at preventing them from leaving, with at least ONE credible witness, and who would be willing to PROSECUTE, it would be over. But, when anyone "leaves" the Sea Org, sadly many take along with them many fixed ideas of Scientology. Many still believe the KSW crap, the list of suppressive acts, and assorted nonsense, so they STILL "tow the line", because they still believe that DESPITE all the insanity they endured that Scientology DOES provide the ONLY "path out of the trap".

    If a person didn't somehow still want to "remain on the good side of the Church of Scientology", ANY person can walk away without a problem. As long as any person turns over power to THEM by agreeing with the Scientology paradigm, you basically agree to play by THEIR rules. And when any person does that, he or she accepts abuse, listens to the invalidation, works through the conditions, and "doesn't want to bring negative PR to the beloved Scientology". The person still hasn't walked off the ball field.

    The ONLY reason I did the full routing forms, and "played nice" when I routed out of the Sea Org (twice), was because I wanted to "remain in good standing". That desire involves many ideas, beliefs and other factors (family, friends, still have some desire to "do the Bridge", etc.). If I had simply decided that Scn was total and complete bullshit, I would have disappeared one night, never to be heard from again.

    My daughter tried to route of the Sea Org twice. She was brought up in the Sea Org, so she had no grounding in any other view of things. She accepted the various ideas like "Scientology is right", "we are the good guys", "anyone who routes out of the SO must be a DB", "the wog world is degraded and evil", and on and on. She never actually analyzed these notions, but they had "seeped in" from being brought up in the cult. She felt very "guilty", because she somehow imagined that "leaving" MUST be a "bad thing". Realize that she had to accept various ideas to possibly feel guilty.

    If she knew what she knew now, and had abandoned ALL "fixed ideas" related to Hubbard and Scn, she would have called me, said to pick her up at the gate of the Hacienda Gardens (a Clearwater apartment complex the church purchased to serve as staff berthing), packed her stuff, I would have had a police officer there, and THAT would have been the end of it. But, she didn't do that, and MANY don't do that, because they still harbor many Scientology beliefs. They want OUT of the organization, because it sucks so bad, BUT they do not (yet) want OUT of Scientology completely.

    The REAL prison is in their heads. When Scn finally has armed guards standing around a Scn facility and threatens phsyical harm with a weapon or body, THEN I will begin to consider that I might be off on this. While there IS very strong manipulation and extreme peer pressure, the control is almost entirely MENTAL and EMOTIONAL. That is why studies in cults MUST bring up the very real and often severe aspect of "mind control". Yes, there is SOME physical abuse, and examples of this have been reported, but it is minor (in quantity) compared to what happens on the physical and emotional levels.

    Anyway, Heber, and anybody could leave TODAY if they really wanted to. Obviousy, they don't.

    Mental prisons require the agreement and participation of the prisoner. Physical prisons differ in that the prisoner often has NO agreement with the rules of the prison system. This is a key point that many miss or refuse to grasp.

    Scientology sucks big boners, but also, for any staff member or Church member to "go the affect of it", one must AGREE to play by their rules and participate. This applies ONLY to agreeable participating Church members. It does not apply to "enemies" or "critics", where the Church will go after and harm them because they DISAGREE. It matters little what one thinks about Scn when you are "out", because in those cases, your are no longer "trapped by your own agreements within the Hubbard system". Sometimes it takes years or even decades for some to unravel the Scientological-onion and free oneself from the MANY Scientology-based ideas one has accepted, and well after having left the Church and Scientology entirely.

    I am NOT saying that it is Lisa McPherson's "fault" that she died at the hands of abusive handlers. That guilt sits squarely with the Scn assholes. But, she would not have ever been there or stayed there unless she WANTED to - at least up to before she got put on the Introspection R/D. I am not "blaming her". I am not talking about blame here. I am talking about the fact that people get stuck in situations, often because they agree to. Not always, but when it comes to "mind control cults", it seems some miss just how major and severe of a factor the "mind control" actually is.

    You couldn't make lots of people stay in Scientology by threatening them with physical harm, but one CAN get lots of people to stay and participate in Scn by threatening to take away their ONLY chance at "eternal freedom". That last threat ONLY works because the person has "bought into" (agrees with, believes, accepts) key aspects of the Scientology belief system.

    One of the major reason that Scientology is so nasty is because it is so very effective in its methods of "mind control". At least with some people.

    Heber needs to FREE HIMSELF from the many dumb ideas parading around in his head.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  19. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    So would I, but this has absolutely nothing to do with any point I was making.
     
  20. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

    Yep, that the real prison is in one's head is true . . . .

    Though, additionally, I recall posts on ESMB of folks going through all kinds of tricks to get out of, is it Hemet? . . . the barbed-wire compound with security guards preventing "unauthorized" and voluntary exit.

    ANd then there's the blow drill the SO has to chase "blows" down and bring them back . . . that too has been written up on ESMB.

    These are monster violations of personal freedom and rights . . .

    Somewhere I remember reading that cases of violations of "Civil Rights" as expressed in the case law stemming from our US Bill of Rights and Constitution are funded by the US Government when brought by plaintiffs.

    Maybe those individuals who have had to resort to dangerous escape tactics to get free from the physical restraints implemented against them, as noted on ESMB, ought band together in a no-cost to them suit against the cult. Though, dunno about any statute of limitations on this.

    One case I recall was a guy who indeed was luckily rescued from capture by the cult when the police arrived to ensure his safety . . . he'd made his escape from the barbed-wire camp. Then there was the guy who invented a slider to use on sliding down the mooring line of the ship to escape and was rescued by a taxi driver . . . and so it goes.

    Rog