ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Questions, questions...

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    My opinion is worth zilch prolly, because of all sorts of distance from him.

    Having said that I would speculate this:
    ".... The dominance of the charlatan over his victim satisfies a range of psychological demands, which are irrational and to some degree in conflict with each other. In consequence the charlatan's interpretation of the situation, including the truth or falsity of his own theories, is often delusional and unstable. I mean that the charlatan may believe he's speaking the truth, or he may know he's a sham, or he may fluctuate between the two positions or, indeed, hold to both of them simultaneously despite the contradiction...."

    Leaving out the emotional part of belief or believing in someone/something, he would probably be a believer in a practical sense. I mean that as a strategist he would probably have proven to himself that rons shit works.
    Scientology has gotten more and more and more money in the coffers, by doing what ron says. They have survived all that litigation...they have shut people up, they kicked the arse of the media. It has been quite epic. They did what ron said to do AFAIK. It worked. People are amazed that they exist considering what they do, but they do exist. It is only fairly recently that DM and COS are on the back foot. So I would say that DM would be a believer in the workability of the policy as strategy planning etc.
    On the more personal/psychological so-called spiritual sides it is probably at least in part, per the linked quote.
    It would be great if it were possible to have in depth information/interviews with witnesses about the relationship bewteen hubbard and the dwarf, but I assume that's not possible.
  2. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    That's actually why he is a true believer. eh?

    Who knows what hubbard did to him in closed quarters?


    who could do what DM is doing if he wasn't a true believer?

    I mean beating peeps to get compliance, and saying they are an SP?

    And still keeping them.

    He's the perfect dichotomy.

    Which is what hubbard was.

    The confusion technique, as you have posted many a times.
  3. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Wow! Pretending to know the inner beliefs and motivations of someone I've never met -- that's a fools' errand, eh?

    But what the hell ....

    I think Miscavige "believes" in Scientology like a lot of Christians I know believe in Christianity. It's a mind set learned in childhood, drilled countless times, rehearsed in panic, and imprinted under stress. Ron's rules -- and the "improvements" Miscavige has made -- are things he "believes" like a successful consultant has come to believe in his aphorisms and processes and tips simply because he has no other solutions to offer than the ones he has used forever. His religion/philosophy has become his performance art, and his performance art has become his life.

    And in his heart, he knows that he is far above all this. He has a place he goes to where "this shit is silly" means the same thing as "I am superior to these stupid Scientologists." He shares Hubbard's inferiority issues (with good reason) that express themselves as ambition, greed, and obsession.

    He's not nearly as smart as Hubbard. But he hasn't needed to be. All he's had to do is be a tyrant and ride this train all the way down. If he plays his cards right, he'll leave with a load of cash while he's still alive.

    He's now 53 years old. He has asthma. He's a smoker. He's a drinker. He has used steroids for years. He's surely also taking testosterone and human growth hormone. (See how well I do without any real facts at all? :)) He's probably been impotent for some time (the steroids). He now needs more cosmetic treatments to prep for those event photographic close-ups.

    He now really knows, like people over 50, that he won't live forever. He has started to plan his remaining decades. He knows he's got another 10 years max left in the public eye.

    It's the Age of Negotiation.

    That's all I got.

  4. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Therein lies Jeffreys proof. He is the captain of the SO which permeates the entirety of Scientology, and tells it what to do.

    It's right there in front of everyone to see.
  5. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    I think he is, absolutely!

    I also agree with, TG. He thinks he's above it all and the ONLY one who really gets it!
  6. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Then how can he alter the tech which he has done viciously?
  7. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster


    My two cents' worth is that he has "altered" the tech in desperate attempts to try and make it work.

    Remember -- this is a guy for whom the tech has NOT worked. He couldn't audit. He allegedly physically attacked his last pc. He hasn't done "the upper bridge." Tech hasn't worked on all those assholes in the Hole. The tech also hasn't worked on those stupid whales who are good for nothing but to cough up money -- although never enough. The robotic, lower-class, pie-faced Sea Org are sub-human, and tech doesn't work on them.

    The only person worth hanging out with is Cruise -- who's the only person on whom the tech seems to have worked. Of course, Cruise was a superior being to begin with. But Cruise has gotten better. Unfortunately, Marty was the one who made the tech work on Cruise. So that part's complicated. (Don't think about that part.)

    But Cruise is unhappy with the Scientology's down-stat-ness. The orgs weren't good enough for Cruise, so Ideal Org program. Cruise probably also said something to him about how hard it was to understand F/Ns. GAT I! Cruise must've had some cogs reading something. The Basics! Cruise and the perfection that Cruise was and could be again is as close as Miscavige will ever get to the tech working. If he could just help Cruise, if he could just fix Tom so Tom would never have another loss or feel bad, the tech would be better. GAT II!

    Again, I'm making this shit up.

  8. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    yah. I hate being a landlord. This nightmare cost about $15,000.

    I had no idea that I could perform the scheduling and prepping etc that was required of me in restoring the home. I did, tho, and negotiated a new lease during the same time.
    You should have seen me. An 82 yr old woman up on a ladder scraping wallpaper off the wall. I am proud of myself. And crawling around cleaning and polishing a Spa.

    I forgot to mention that one day while I was parked at a lumber yard, a young man crashed a 4x4x8 thur the passenger front window of my Prius.
    This was during the holidays, so I couldn't get it repaired until Tuesday.

    My "indoc" took over about then. I started whining about what I had done "to pull this in", and "those tenants were total Suppressives". "Am I under psychic attack"?

    You know the litany.
    And I thought I was over it. LOL.
  9. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    That "vicious alteration" is in the eye of the beholder, IMO. I've done comparisons of several of the re-released books, for example, comparing them to different editions and find that things (from a technical point of view) are not as altered (as to meaning/intent) as some would have us believe. Just my opinion.

    As to Tech alterations such as introducing extensive Sec Checking mid a major Level and so forth, you should by now be well aware of the Hubbard Law of Commotion. There is a usually an "applicable" Hubbard reference covering most Technical issues, many of which are quite contrary to one another. Only a Purist would argue the point.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  10. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Speaking of rank this definitely stinks...that is, if it's true then it's truly rank:

    Church of Scientology Now Selling Sea Org Ranks!

    While the IAS has sold faux-knighthoods in the past few years, this has failed to raise any real money. Whereupon, based upon actual survey, it has become evident to we in RTC that what our status-obsessed Church of Scientology parishioners crave is the elite status of being in a Sea Org. Then again, they don’t actually want to join the Sea Org because they are all pantywaist dilettantes.

    COB has the answer.

    The super-elite status of being in the Sea Org without actually having to be in the Sea Org can now be yours!

    And yes, everyone will call you “Sir” when you walk into the room.


    ...although it appears to be just some more of that J&D crap that Ron hated so much.
  11. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    A sociopath or psychopath or even a paranoid schizophrenic. The spellbinders...

    All have little or no conscience.

    The fact of no conscience, - no stress from guilt or shame (we have seen this same symptom from some of OSA's puppets on the net and some who were not osa)
    Not having a proper stress response to guilt to shame allows these people to fly through Lie-detector tests.. -or- e-meter 'sec-checks".(*note)

    I am starting to believe that organizations that use these methods, do so, because they are pathocracies, (*note2) run by individuals without conscience, who need more people without a conscious to do their dirty deeds, to keep their show on the road.

    I see this in US government, in the US Military Industrial Congressional Complex (*note3)...In the bankers.

    (note) A Tremor In The Blood Hardcover by David T. Lykken (An expose of lie detectors)
    (note2) Political Ponerology (Also must see "Reverse Blockade") "Pathocracy survives thanks to the feeling of being threatened by the society of normal people, as well as by other countries wherein various forms of the system of normal man persist. For the rulers, staying on top is therefor the classic problem of "to be or not to be"........."Thus, the biological , psychological, moral, and economic destruction of the majority of normal people becomes, for the pathocrats, a "biological" necessity." (Quote from page 142/3 Political Ponerology..(what we have in the United States at this time and it describes $cientology)
    (note3) "Milton Eisenhower explained that one of the drafts of the speech referred to the "military-industrial-Congressional complex" and said that the president himself inserted the reference to the role of the Congress, an element that did not appear in the delivery of the farewell address.

    When the president's brother asked about the dropped reference to Congress, the president replied: "It was more than enough to take on the military and private industry. I couldn't take on the Congress as well."
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  12. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    Q: Is Miscavige a true believer?

    A: Yes, but only when it's convenient, efficacious or Machiavellian to assume that affectation. The rest of the time, he is a cynically scheming, treacherous sociopath.

    One should not confuse "belief" with "rationalization".

    rationalize -verb. to think about or describe something (such as bad behavior) in a way that explains it and makes it seem proper, more attractive, etc.
  13. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I am thinking about belief in ideas from others, and belief in individuals (trust), in different ways than I used to. I used to have a definite separation between believer and who, or what, is believed in.

    But now I am interested in the relationship between believer and believed as a partnership. It seems less like a partnership if the believed (person) comes up with something you have never thought of before and it seems useful and/or like a great discovery. If you don't have the intelligence or the necessary information to notice flaws then I suppose the partnership between believer and believed is more lopsided, with more separation between the two.

    But as, for example, a person in the scntlgy cult stays on year in and year out, they notice flaws such as the huge shortfalls on "going clear" etc. They notice OTs who are supposed to be god like but are all fucked up. They rationalise those flaws. Their relationship with the believed becomes closer as the two of them co-create their belief bubble. They also have others who are in the same sort of relationship with the belief-maker, and so it becomes a socially constructed bubble(s).

    It makes me want to be super-vigilant when anyone asks me, for any reason, not to question things, to let it slide. Last time I tried that it wasn't so wonderful, and the scientology cult is not by any means the only place it happens. When a person gets to the top, they are IMO, in the position of having helped their belief maker to stitch themselves (the believer) up nicely.
  14. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    or with acting...

    "In their paper, "Construct Validity of Psychopathy in a Community Sample... Salekin, Trobst, and Krioukova write "Psychopathy as originally conceived by Cleckley (1941) is not limited to engagement in illegal activities, but rather encompasses such personality characteristics as manipulativeness, insincerity, egocentricity , and lack of guilt - characteristics clearly present in criminals but also in spouses, parents, bosses, attorneys and politicians, and CEOs, to name but a few. (bursten. 1973; Stewart, 1991)...As such. psychopathy may be involving a tendency towards dominance and coldness. Wiggens (1995) in summarizing numerous previous findings..indicates such persons are prone to anger and irritation and are willing to exploit others. They are arrogant, manipulative, cynical, exhibitionistic, sensation-seeking, Machiavellian, vindictive and out for their own gain. With respect to their patterns of social exchange (Foa & Foa, 1974), they attribute love and status to themselves, seeing themselves as highly worthy and important, but prescribe neither love nor status to others, seeing them as unworthy and insignificant. " Page 89, Political Ponerology, footnote
  15. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. -- Robert Anson Heinlein

    This is what I was thinking. I know some of you are going to project your own experiences onto your assessment of DM, but that's OK. It shows how the indoctrination process works, and I agree with TG1 that Dm is likely like many EXers here on the boards, not really believing most of the time, but still the old conditioning has not been shaken.

    My wife's like that. She converted from Buddhism to Chrsitianity before she became a scientist, and she has been in the US since she was 11. But she still gets uncomfortable is someone whistles after dark. Stupid-assed Chinese superstition instilled in her by her grandmother. I don't think she'll ever shake it, but it really doesn't affect her logical judgment most of the time.
  16. LA SCN

    LA SCN NOT drinking the kool-aid

    That is an interesting look at the subject.

    I also find that when a True Believer buys into a core belief consciously or by existing group agreement (like cannibals) that the conscience follows based on what would go against the core belief. The Murder Routine in scilon auditing tech shows this.

    A cannibal would consider it a bad act to fail to eat someone.

    Hilary Clinton would consider it a bad act to tell the truth if it would harm her Marxist agenda. That goes back to college days with her during which days she bought into that core belief.

    The real power brokers in the groups you mention Arnie are psychotic, deranged, insane self serving individuals who deny their own conscience and moral code or sense of humanity, as it gets in the way of their invented agenda and it's vehicle and they become absolutely amoral.

    Those who buy into the agendas' vehicle as presented, be it marxism (Das Kapital), nazi (Mein Kampf) or scientology (Dianetics, Science of Survival, 8-8008, et al), adopt it as their core belief and depending on the strength of their native moral code they become borg like soldiers in the war to extend their cause.

    With Hubbard his invented agenda is evident in his Affirmations. The vehicle for his agenda was and is scientology. A variety of true believers have bought into the vehicle and adopted it as their core belief, unwittingly and hypnotically advancing Hubbards well hidden agenda.

    Miscavige I think is different as he actually buys into Hubbards' agenda as stated in the Affirmations and enjoys inflicting pain, suffering and economic duress on the true believers and is in it solely for the money, power and self aggrandizement.

    And he truly fits into the ranks of the psychotic, deranged, insane self serving individuals.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  17. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Nice write up Arnie . . . it sums up Hubbard and Miscavage rather neatly. . . . The only thing missing is a description of the deluded state these dogs are in; for being as deluded as they are to the need of more decent relationships with others is, in my view, the reason they are able to behave as they do. Of course some will cite their "evil" . . . well, one can only consistently behave in an evil manner if one is stuck within one's own delusions about life.

  18. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    I don't. The reason being is because he acts like some staff members that I know of and this is the behavior:

    They are Judas goats or something because they will sell the hell out of Scientology but never use it themselves or go to it for a solution; therefore, they have to know at some level that it is unworkable...yet they even sell their own kids into the SO. It's a conundrum to say the least.

    Miscavige does not use Scientology or look to it for solutions...I know this because staff will frequently be busy following orders and doing stuff that are completely contrary to written Hubbard policies. The staff members will be unaware of the policies' existence and content but will be doing "command intention" SPDs or something which are Miscavige must be unaware of the policies' existence and content OR does not believe in their efficacy...but sells it anyway.

    Notice that there is almost zero attention on getting anyone up the Bridge, let alone staff members' cases at all, but there is intense focus on "handling the Earth" and "Clearing the planet" and "salvaging this sector" and this is to be done by donating for your next status level or for some Ideal Org project or The Way to Happiness or...or...or...

    If anyone truly believed that the solution to abberration and thereby increasing production and efficiency and morale and yadda, yadda then there would be an intense focus on auditing and technical application. There is not.

    It's so stupid that the closest thing that Scientology has to a product or salable goods is NOT produced or sold! Instead, the "Have before you can Be" thing of Ideal Orgs and all that are sought so that in some glory future time the product or goods can be produced or sold. For now there's "no case on post" and "no one has a right to a reactive mind" and "the bank has no rights" and "make it go right" and "you have to be OT to go OT" and "everyone on staff is in the OT-band somewhere" and "the supreme test of a thetan" is the mantra...which is the stupidest thing about Scientology because if those things are true then there's actually no conceivable reason for Scientology to exist at all in the first place...effectively making the entire enterprise some sort of spiritual masturbation and ponzi scheme.

    Oh, wait! I think I just "EPed" the process and as-ised Scientology!
  19. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    That is described also in the book... But I cant type the whole damn thing in...
    Thanks, Arnie

    and rather than post again, this is from facebook where I posted the previous excerpts:

  20. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Thanks Arnie, good point. I didn't think of that having no direct experience with a psychopath. Well, just one, a childhood friend. Boy, that guy was the demon himself.