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Questions, questions...

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Udarnik, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yeah, I know what you mean, I **really** do.

    Lobaczwski states that about 6% of the population are this way. With more, who have to work for them or close to them infected with similar traits, adopted as a solution or by conditioning, for staying employed, or surviving an abusive parent, or staying married or staying in the cult... for example.

    I've been looking for the solution to what is wrong on this planet all my life, I once believed Hubbard had those answers, after all he said he did...and this one book provides . that knowledge. This is of what is going to set you free, and provide a foundation for real reforms in the future. I'm only 3/4's through it, only able to digest 20 pages at a sitting then have to sleep on it. I woke this am at 4 am, and started typing in the two portions that were right in front of me in my dreams..
     
  2. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Arnie, this is fascinating and I have question. I've taken a hard look at traumatic bonding, and seen it apply to not only abusive relationship but cults, corrupt organizations, governments, etc. Wouldn't using traumatic bonding be a tool of choice (among other tools) for a Pathocracy to keep itself in power?
     
  3. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    Why, yes, of course, that would include any scheme or technique, any artifice (see fraud definition), even if despicable to win the day is of course, okay...

    The word manipulator springs to mind.

    There are those who don't care whom they crush, don't care how much pain they caused, as long as they can enhance their sense of self worth, while propagating their own world view. Those that advance themselves at the expense of another. Oops I'm entering rant mode... sorry. :whistling:
     
  4. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    You've, more than pretty well near all of Us, earned the right to rant all you wish, Arnie. :thumbsup::yes::clap:

    Face:)
     
  5. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks, you know, Confucious detested clever arguments, especially those about who was right.. he believed that all discussion should be pursued not about who is right or wrong, but what the truth is.

    Whenever there is manipulation of perception, whether by fallacious arguments, thought stopping visceral emotion, (like 911), covert choreography behind the scenes, outright lies, orchestrated testimony, in short, theatricals.. the 'wins' of such careless, psychopathic style conduct are fleeting and transient, as truth is lost, and without truth you really have nothing at all, other than some strictly material or financial gain, and having the most stuff when you die is not winning, that is just dying with a lot of stuff, so there is really nothing of eternal value to lose by pursuit of the truth.

    This is highlighted by the fact that pursuit of the other path risks losing ones soul.
     
  6. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    That's a fascinating description of the thought processes of a charlatan, thank you. Most of us really would like to know what they see as true, but the truth is that they simply don't operate on that basis. "What's true is what's true for you." Until they want it to be untrue, or partly true, or some other combination, to "ding in" some new defense, scheme or operation. (Ref. PR Series 43 PR and Purpose)
     
  7. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    :clap::clap::clap:

    As did Socrates. :yes::yes::yes:

    Truer than true. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  8. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    That rings true for me.

    The whole hubbard thing on Ser Fac's never indicated for me.

    Whenever I got into arguments with peeps, I was just trying to find the truth.

    I never cared if I was right or wrong.

    I just wanted the true data.
     
  9. LA SCN

    LA SCN NOT drinking the kool-aid

    Amen Arnie - simplicity itself.

    To paraphrase old wisdom, 'Seek ye first the Truth and ye may find the kingdom of God.'
     
  10. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks all, this thread is turning into something like what I had envisioned when I started it.
     
  11. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Cowboy

    Next installment.

    This was fascinating. I had to wade through far fewer pages of filler and, frankly, bullshit. Anyone who thinks this dude was an OSA agent is suffering from pendulum syndrome - they are so pissed at being taken in by the cult that they believe in nothing they have not personally observed.

    But in that case, they haven't learned anything from their cult experience, at least not what they need to learn most - how to look at small cues and pieces of data, and seriously and critically examine a source before accepting OR discarding it. And most importantly how to live with ambiguity. I get the feeling that for many posters here, that's a hard thing, and that's why the hard certainty of the church kept them spellbound for so long.

    This was also easier for me in that I see a kindred spirit in philosophical approach to life, the universe, and everything.

    I don't know for sure Cowboy is for real. I'm a scientist, we're supposed to be always open to more data.

    But I'll eat my hat if he's not.


    18th July 2012, 11:34 AM

    trepidatious

    Many years ago, within the structure of the C of S, Flag was paramount. But removed and cloaked in secrecy was the special unit, hidden in various places, primarily southern Calif. However, removed and hidden from those at the special unit was a series of smaller bases, where Hubbard worked with a trusted few. Many of their names are known. Some are not.

    I spent thousands of hours over many years in daily contact with the man. I experienced first hand more than most could even imagine.

    Only the very tip of the iceberg is talked about here.

    Few can truly understand what went on in the final days.

    I'm still uncertain if I want to even discuss it.


    18th July 2012, 11:51 AM

    Re: trepidatious

    A randomn night, Hubbard couldn't sleep. He was hidden away, his location known to perhaps five people. In the wee hours of the morning, he decided to take a walk. His conversation rambled, reviewing upsets of the day. The only trouble was the fact that we were walking streets early in the morning attracted attention. A cop car pulled up behind us, the light flashed, and a cop got out. "I need to talk to you," the cop said when he got out.

    The old man glanced at me. "Take care of it," he said, and kept walking, making his way back to the apartment that was his temporary home.

    I turned to the officer and glibly made a joke about indigestion. Fifteen minutes later I slipped back into the apartment. "Well done," he said, and asked no more.

    The old man's faith in me jumped up. And I found myself shouldering more responsibility and more secrets.


    18th July 2012, 12:37 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Hubbard was, if anything, unpredictable. In moments he could be charming, in others.... insane.

    His paranoia was extreme, which led to his constant fear of being found. But he also worried of things beyond merely being arrested. Violence. Theft. Conspiracies and plots.

    One night, worse than others, I slept on the floor outside his room, listening to his snoring all night.

    Morning broke and within minutes his angered voice bellowed through the household. I was, literally, called on the carpet.

    "I thought you slept outside my door last night," he said.

    "I did."

    "Then explain this!" he screamed. He threw down one of his brown half boot shoes. "Someone entered in the middle of the night and stole one shoe and replaced it with a smaller one. They're trying to make me think I'm insane."

    I looked at the familiar shoes, which he wore every day. Both shoes were the very ones I was familiar with. The old man's face trembled with suppresed rage. He continued to berate me, screaming at my failure to protect him from the plots against him.

    Just another day in paradise.



    I've never posted or written anything since leaving the church, many years ago. Some of you call into question my credibility. Yet my experience with the way the church works is what makes me unwilling to prove who I am. Some of those at the top who've left would know me, in person or through my reputation. If some of you want to believe, or not to believe, it doesn't matter to me.

    I arrived on the ship a child, enamored with the idea of meeting the demi-god Hubbard. With time, I was with Hubbard almost daily, for six or eight hours a day, minimum.

    Those who are movers and shakers still within the church, and those who were movers and shakers and left, were my friends. I saw the whole gambit of emotions and human frailties. Greed. Avarice. Jealousy....

    But what of Hubbard? Could I tell you of his Dodge Dart with the suped up engine and the Jeep Cherokee, and going to the mall with him in Indio to go shopping for MSH? This was before the termination of all contact to MSH due to the GO complications. Can I tell you of the negotiated payment to Sexton not to touch Suzzette? Can I tell of the reaction upon his face when he learned of Quentin's suicide?

    I could talk of all those things, and many more. Some flattering, most not. If someone asks me a specific question of that time, where the answer isn't readily known, I could answer it. I could explain background of well known events and the personalities involved.

    I don't have to be believed.

    But I tell you, I speak the truth. From experience.

    Heck, the old man didn't believe me when I said I guarded his room all night and no one entered and changed his shoes. I wasn't believed then. The difference now is if I'm not believed, it doesn't matter.



    18th July 2012, 01:20 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    First and foremost, Scientology was a marketing effort.

    I remember once discussing what the next "released" level should deal with. Hubbard said go out and do a survey as to what people's wants were, what was the ruin, most pressing on their minds? Whatever that was is what the next level's result would be. And just tell them, he explained, through his marketing genius, if they pc didn't achieve that result, advise the staff to tell them that the next level would achieve that result.

    I left when I realized that even Hubbard himself was a far cry from any of the results promised through clearing and OT. It took me years to separate the promises from the reality. I saw him in his daily activities, through his own ups and downs, illnesses, losses, frustrations, rages. I twisted my mind trying to make the facts fit into the promises. It didn't work.

    NED was developed becasue Dianetics didn't work. NOTS was developed because NED didn't work.

    None of it worked. Not one bit. Not on him. Not on others. Sure, it made some people feel good for a while. But did any of the avowed results ever come to fruition? Of course not.


    18th July 2012, 01:23 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    Go for it.

    This might be very interesting, and illuminating too.

    Paul

    One thing I might mention, which I've never seen commented on. If you know anyone with him in the final years, that has left the church, they can confirm. Each person working closely with him in the end that had interactions with the outside world had a another name. Even Hubbard had one. His name was Mr. Hobart.


    18th July 2012, 01:46 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilla View Post
    More than anything, I'd like to know what Hubbard's favourite breakfast cereal was.
    Didn't eat breakfast cereal. Postum is what he drank for breakfast, however.


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    A recurring question that I see is why Hubbard allowed his books to remain as-is for 25 years or so when full of typos. My assumption is that he didn't give a rat's ass. Did he ever comment on that to you? (Not that he always told the truth!)

    What I would find most interesting, would be any commentary on Robert Vaughn-Young's article on Hubbard being murdered. I don't expect any revelations from you, but I can ask.

    Paul
    Paul, hate to be boring, but the old man had no comment or upset or concern over perceived errors in his prior books. That concern only developed after his death. He did, however, occassionally have concerns over policy letters or bulletins that might have been issued erroneously.

    One example; (forgive the semicolon) A bulletin was submitted for authorization, to be published in his name. Such submissions generally had skeletal structures of previous writings and expansion of concepts encompassing new "technology". In this submission, the old man found evidence of "squirreling". Upon investigation of the part of the new bulletin to which he objected, it was discovered that the part in question was a direct quote from an earlier bulletin, issued in Hubbard's name.

    I was sent back to Flag to find the original bulletin, which had the "squirelled" section that was being quoted in the new bulletin. Find the squirrel who wrote the earlier bulletin in Hubbard's name, I was instructed, declare them and ship them out.

    Unbelievably, deep in mimeo files of Flag, I found the original bulletin, containing the text which Hubbard said was the work of a squirrel.

    The original bulletin was written by hand, and it was easy to recognize the flourishes of his handwriting. He'd written the bulletin a decade earlier, which contained the passages which he'd explained were the work of a rampant sp squirrel.

    When I returned he asked if the squirrel had been declared and kicked out.

    I studied his face, the thought fleetingly passing through my mind that maybe I should tell him it was he himself who'd written the passages which he now so venomously condemned.

    But I didn't. I assured him the matter had been taken care of.

    I have only rumors from reliable sources on his death, but nothing which I can repeat with any certainty.



    18th July 2012, 02:21 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    Yes. What happened between David Mayo and Hubbard?

    Good lord, what a loaded question. I would, respectfully, ask that you be more specific and name the year. Their relationship was long and complex, with ups and down and turns and twists. So one cannot take a slice of time and necessarily say that was representative of the relationship as a whole.

    Let me explain a couple facts of life near Hubbard;

    1. Jealousies were always present, with subtle and sometimes not so subtle attempts at achieving power by those who worked with the old man. If one person became more greatly trusted, it would often create bad will among others. Such trust would be undermined by those with jealousies.

    2. Everything Hubbard was aware of for many years was heavily censored. One couldn't give him bad news, or complete news. He made erroneous judgements based upon this.

    I bring up these two facts as they played heavily in the Mayo/Hubbard relationship.


    18th July 2012, 02:24 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by afaceinthecrowd View Post
    Welcome, Cowboy.

    So glad you are here with all of Us.

    Looks like we were shipmates on the Apollo. There's some other former Apollo Crew here, too.

    Were you aboard when HRH came to visit? Love to hear your take on that.

    Face
    Yes, I met HRH and chatted briefly with him. He seemed cowed by the whole "Flag" deal as he hobbled around the upper decks. I would have liked to have had a more meaningful discourse with him..... like what did he think of his son.... but I didn't. And Hubbard never spoke of his father when I was with him. Of course, remember, I was only a child then.



    18th July 2012, 07:15 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    Thank you and please don't be put off by any wildness I post. You are potentially the icing on a cake long in the making for us here at ESMB.

    Specific: Did Mayo save LRH life with auditing; Did LRH make Mayo Snr C/S Int?

    LRH was in a horrible state. He may or may not have died. He preferentially chose David Mayo to help him, which Mayo did, quite successfully. There were other factors involved, contributing to the situation. LRH believed in Mayo. He trusted him. He liked him. And Mayo had nothing but the best of intentions toward LRH. LRH felt that Mayo saved is life, and awarded him his deserved status accordingly.

    The escalation of Mayo's position caused jealousies, serious jealousies, among others.



    18th July 2012, 07:18 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    Were you on Flag when Harriet Ingraham came to visit LRH in 1974/75? (that may be too young for you)

    Did Hubbard never suspect that Miscavige lied to him about Mayo to discredit him and get him off the line?
    I don't recall Harriet.

    Re: Your second part..... it is my personal opinion, due to years in his position that the old man never fully trusted anyone.... well, except for two people. It is my feeling, however, that his distrust of everyone was played upon, which led to his lowering his opinion of Mayo. It was easy for him to believe that someone had turned, as, from his point of view, countless trusted people had turned through the years.


    18th July 2012, 07:20 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    For years I assumed that Broeker forged it. But I read something (forget where) relatively recently causing me to think that Hubbard had perhaps really written it.

    Paul
    There were only three people that new completely what happened. Two are dead. The third will never speak, and if so, would still not be believed, no matter what he said.


    18th July 2012, 07:26 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Auditor's Toad View Post
    The whole business of the death of Quentin has never made much sense to me.

    The plates were off the car but near it.

    The car was registered to the Co$ at flag ( where, of course, Q was last on post )

    Supposedly his hair was found on a runner in the trunk of the car.

    He was in a coma for almost 2 weeks.

    Allegedly dies after 2 scientologists ( GO ?) left & his life support system was turned off.

    To me, the corker of oddest ( if true ) was he died one day & LRH was informed the next day.

    One of his children in the hospital in a coma & scientologists in attendance - and Ron NOT know anything about it ?

    Can you shed any light on this episode ?

    Or, have I bought into stories not true ?
    Wow, it seems you've heard more than I. I can only say what I observed. I was in the room when the old man was told that his son had just died. I don't recall that there was a period of time when Q was in a coma. It may have been so, but I don't recall it. It was obviously a suicide. Quentin was on leave, and having some troubles with the church, and his father. The old man was shocked. Suprised. But he got on with his work in a very short time, with no further talk of it.




    18th July 2012, 07:31 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by afaceinthecrowd View Post
    Thanks, cowboy.

    I had a midships upper-decks office and cabin when El Ron had his heart attack and was one of the "early responders". I've written about it and my "Take" here on ESMB. I know you were very young then, but I'm curious what your "Take" was and what the "buzz" was amongst the messengers.

    Were you part of the messenger detail that interacted with Cathy Cariotaki and Kima and the hospital detail during that time?


    Face

    No, I wasn't directly involved in that.



    18th July 2012, 07:52 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    ...

    Cool thread.

    There are two side to Hubbard I find particularly fascinating.
    * The real L. Ron Hubbard that is incalculably and irreconcileably in diametric opposition to the supernatural saint persona that Scientologsts were cleverly deceived into believing.

    * The monumental efforts that Hubbard made to create a swirling maelstrom of believable lies about himself, his achievements and his powers.
    Stories that illustrate his very human, cruel, ignorant, disturbed psychological condition(s) are of extreme value to those who were swept along into personal oblivion for years, if not decades, hopelessly chasing the delusion that Ron was an ascended or perfected being--when he was oft times, cruel, avaricious, vengeful, violent, criminal and incapable of telling the truth.

    And tales that demonstrate the lengths that Hubbard would go to in order to foster the errantly placed trust in the mythology of his OTness.

    By telling your story you take a most venerated position as one of the rare and precious collaboration of BIOGRAPHERS who shine sunlight on some of Scientology's most treacherous untold story. Along with other wonderful writers and posters (like afaceinthecrowd who greeted you so warmly on this thread) and David Mayo and Jerry Armstrong, Bent Corydon, Jon Atak and others, you play an important role to many people around the world who will use your knowledge to complete their own.

    I have very close friends who worked directly with Hubbard who, to this day, refuse to speak ill of him. I had dinner the other night with one who daringly even added words to the effect (unsolicited) that "....I could say things about what I saw with Ron, but I will never do that!"

    Many here are delighted that you are taking that step...

    Talk about the parts that you think others would have no way of knowing, if not for your insights into the secret world of Hubbard.

    Naturally, anyone who has been in Scientology (and escaped) is guarded to some degree about accepting anyone's "word for it" when they have been lied to so often and badly in the world of Scientology.

    But, I think you will find that virtually everyone here is interested in just knowing the simple truth.

    Carry on my man, you are off to a great start!
    Wow. Well thanks. Shucks.

    There are things I too will never say about Hubbard. And there are reasons. Some good. Some personal.

    Look, one thing I learned in the church is that people are going to believe what they are going to believe, irrespective of facts. A Scientologist reading this post, who is in good standing, may well nay say my observations as the rantings of a former confidante. Former Scientologists reading this have framed their own opinions. And what I may write that isn't real to them they will toss out. And what they agree with they will keep.

    Some even doubt my experiences are based in fact.

    It is very, very difficult to summarize a person's character, especially one so complex as that of Hubbard, in a few paragraphs. In this culture we all try to pigeonhole someone into neat categories of good and evil. Hubbard couldn't be categorized into categories as these in a black and white fashion. Some of his bad was worse than many would suspect, but some of his good could be very touching.

    I don't come here with any axe to grind.

    There are a few questions the answers to which stablized my life and set me on a new course.

    We can all read the definitions of clear and OT. Throw out the hype, the fabricated success stories, the baloney. Has anyone ever achieved the loftiness described as the end product of those processes? Hubbard? No. And of course no one else has either.

    What we all have experienced are "ah so" moments of realization on various things. The relief of a misunderstood being cleared up and the subject being easier to understand, a breakdown and better understanding of the fundamentals of communication. But has there ever been a clear? Not that I know of. Apply a healthy degree of skepticism, and a "show me the evidence" attitude and everything crashes down.

    Hubbard believed in his religion. His information of failures of the tech to do what was promised were consistently hidden from him... though eventually moments of daring would occur when someone could have a candid talk, and the whole structure of scn technology would be re-evaluated.

    I hope this gives a little insight.




    The buzz with the messengers? Doesn't it strike us all, in a moment like that, that the demi-god might not indeed be godly, but constrained to physical universe rules like us all? Would it be talked about? No. Of course not. None of the physical infirmities, insofar as their spiritual implications, which I witnessed in other situations, could be addressed in a straight forward manner, for to do so would remove the old man from his vaulted status.




    18th July 2012, 10:12 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    cowboy - I hope you are still there.

    For me, learning more about Hubbard is like learning more about man, life and even myself.

    To take the life of Hubbard and get the true details of makes him a mortal and not a mythological figure.

    Through his works, even though they were demonstrably taken from the works of others, I was introduced to a fantastic adventure that I am overall glad to have had, but wish I hadn't, if that makes sense.

    I knew a couple, Harry and Harriet Ingraham who were with Ron in the early days. Indeed, they carried the Clearing film to the various 'orgs' in 1957. Harry was at D.C. org early on and was an early Dianeticist. He had an understanding, an acumen about his fellow man and an inner power that shone through his illuminated eyes that he shamelessly attributed to his experience with early processing and training.(I knew several folks like that). He and Harriet knew Ron in Phoenix and helped him move.

    Later, in LA, Harry, to hear him tell it, actually clued Yvonne Gillham in on the Manor that is now CCI and told her the church should buy the property.

    In 1974 Harriet went to the Flagship to see Ron. When she returned she told us the ship was off Portugal and she cried about Rons' condition compared to when she knew him earlier, but would not elaborate.

    I think Hubbard was more than anything, human and subject to the same pitfalls and moments of brilliance. He probably did things out of malice, jealousy, greed, illogic, ego and pettiness, but also good will. So have I and I daresay many others on this board.

    But he had that quality that kept people around him, like you, and following him, like me and again many others here.

    There were spectacular wins had by myself and others; parlor tricks maybe but galvanizing to say the least. The trick at least partially is to realize that life is not a computer with a held down seven - its way more complex than that. Auditing cannot solve life as Hubbard claimed but could make it more bearable. Only death, apparently, solves life.

    So please, help me to understand him better, the real Hubbard.

    If none of these folks cared about Hubbard, then we wouldn't be having this thread.

    And maybe we can keep it a thread where we can all learn something.

    The whole truth will set us free, you can add to that greatly!
    You so articulately voice the truth. It is amazing how well you sum up the complexity that was Hubbard.

    That said, the harm done in the past, and continuing to be done now, negates, in my mind, the good.

    There was also harm done that he didn't intend to be harmful.

    As I've suggested, the lofty pedestal upon which he sat made discourse with him, if one had an opposing opinion, or bad news, extremely difficult. And thus his nature left him further and further out of touch.

    But yes, you have tremendous insight.


    18th July 2012, 11:18 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    It seems that you are saying that Hubbard was sort of the victim of the same sort of "information blackout" that hits many powerful people. The "kill-the-messenger-syndrome", where all messengers feel afraid to relay ANY "entheta" that might result in ones head getting summarily chopped off.

    Yes? No?

    You mean, with all of Hubbard's knowingness and intelligence, he couldn't see that those around him were "afraid to offend", and that this meant he rarely or EVER "got the truth"?

    Hubbard was the guy who wrote about the multiple viewpoint system, and the need to acquire accurate information with which to "evaluate". I was a Flag Rep for a few years in the late 1970s, and I always reported uplines EXACTLY what was REALLY GOING ON. Hubbard's policies on the matter made it VERY clear that THAT is what was needed and wanted.

    To me, and this is just my instinct talking here, while people may have been very reluctant to tell Hubbard any "negative news", I can't believe that he would tolerate "false reports" or the "withholding of vital information" just because those around him did not want to feel the wrath of his anger. Cripes, he even wrote a rundown called the Vital Information Rundown (I know, I did it). The whole idea of the R/D was to always "tell it like it is" - no matter what. The idea was to always RELAY ACCURATELY the exact conditions of ANY situation. It made good sense to me.

    So to me, this idea that Hubbard was isolated and victimized by those around him seems a bit exaggerated to me. But then, what do I know, I wasn't there . . . . .

    But whatever, please, PLEASE continue to relate personal stories - those are to me what really "make it real".

    Wow. We have some fundemental differences in thought here. First off, I never said the old man was a victim. I said that people were afraid to tell him things and so he made bad, uninformed decisions. This made bad situations worse. They were bad to begin with, and they got worse.



    Second, Hubbard didn't have "knowingness" in the sense to which you allude. He was an average guy, in many ways. But if you didn't know him from Adam, you'd never have guessed, even if you'd shared prolonged time, that he was the pinnacle of Scn achievement.... an OT. Sure, he could get intuition, like we all could, using subtle signals like body language. But did he have "knowingness"? No way. He was human. With strengths and flaws. He couldn't perform what we would call "OT" phenomenon.

    Then you make the point that you reported everything upstream. Great. What on earth makes you think that what you reported made it through censors and reached him? There was limited time for him to review such things and the censors passed materials on to other censors who condensed and highlighted materials.

    It would be rare when he knew 1% of materials such as you mention.

    So, he wasn't a victim. He was isolated. He did receive limited information, and delegated the vast majority of decisions. His flaws were compounded by the fear he instilled in others, leading to ever worsening decisions.


    18th July 2012, 11:32 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    I don't know why you were getting bashed either. I read the post, and gave it a "like" right after you posted it. It seemed level-headed enough and made sense to me.

    Or, maybe I am confusing it with a post by Megalomaniac - which got jumped on. Again, I am too lazy to go back and try to figure it all out.

    Never Mind. Carry On.

    By the way Cowboy, since you chose the board name "cowboy", are you a cowpoke???? (just kidding)

    Seriously though, Veda asked you a few questions on page 6. Could you shed some light on them. Here they are again:

    Who did Hubbard think was going to run Scientology when he was no longer around?

    What did he think was going to happen when the person or people running Scientology discovered there were no upper OT levels, as Hubbard promised (unless there are)?

    Why didn't Hubbard ever make phone calls to people he knew? (or did he?)

    What was Hubbard's number one priority? Number two priority?

    Thanks.
    Who was going to run things..... The Broekers.

    What did he think.... We had files of ideas for many future OT levels, just skeletal formations and thoughts, which could be plugged into whatever OT level you wanted to make them. OT 8 was a marketing ploy. Make the promise. People will be happy no matter what the results were, just for the thrill of doing the level. Look at clearing. Show me a clear. None exist. That had been standard for decades. Keep your eye on the goal, not the reality. Simple marketing.

    Why didn't Hubbard make phone calls.... He didn't have non-Scn friends. I remember working on a letter to Bob Heinlein, which is the only non-Scn friend I recall any friendly relationship with. His life was wrapped up in Scn and those around him. Messages went via messengers.

    Hubbard's number one and two priority; Can't answer that without conjecture. It depended on the day of the week and the emergency of the moment. Long term planning wasn't often a priority. Things weren't organized and prioritized like than in advance.

    Priority One, on retrospect, at the time I was there: Don't get arrested.
    Priority Two; Make sure to follow Priority One.


    18th July 2012, 11:54 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    I thought of another one, and then it's off to sleep for me.

    Did you ever observe Hubbard take/abuse drugs/alcohol other than medical prescribed or social occasion imbibing?

    Thanks for your posts today.

    NO.




    19th July 2012, 01:14 AM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Idle Morgue View Post
    I do hope you keep posting Cowboy. I got quite a few people out by telling them the truth and they could not deny it. They thank me profusely! They are grateful they are out for good!! Please do continue! I really want to know more. I was in a few years and recently - so I knew nothing about Hubbard except the tons of lies - it makes me sick how the lies are told over and over and over by Dan Sherman! YUCK!

    You may go down in ESMB history as the best THREAD ever!! Hip Hip Hooray for Cowboy!!
    Wow. thank you.

    I'm trying to think of a good story, and frankly, one not too specific. Something that represents a normal day in the life of Hubbard.

    I guess there really were no normal days. Most days had unique issues that would consume all.

    I can remember racing through the place, trying to find who had made a sandwich which he didn't like, that he felt might be poisoned. Trying to find the SP who must be making his food, so that they could be given the boot.

    Paranoia, literally, not figuratively, was a fact of life.

    Throw someone under the bus, that was the only way out. Name the person responsible for the wrong colored paint, or the poorly prepared dish, or the badly cleaned room.... put a head on the chopping block, for real or imagined offenses.

    It was a world that even now is difficult to explain.



    19th July 2012, 01:17 AM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by FoTi View Post
    Why would he never speak and why would he not be believed?
    Because certain things happened with no corroborating evidence. If someone said they saw LRH levitate three feet into the air and recite the winning horses for the upcoming horse race.... would you believe?


    19th July 2012, 03:49 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Well, I've read all of the responses, and seen a couple dozen questions. I don't think I have time right now to answer each and every one of them.

    Many experiences exemplify what Hubbard was. And don't forget, I've said he had good qualities, too.

    There is no point of going through stories which to demonstrate examples of what you all know... the rage, etc. I'm impressed with the overall understanding of his personalities (yes, plural) and how those around him operated.

    The old man believed that auditing could help, himself and others. He continued to try to elevate himself, and others, spiritually, through the auditing. But the elusive end product couldn't be achieved, not with himself or others.

    I don't think many here understand how uninvolved he was in the development of tech going back for years. Most materials were other writers coming out over his name.

    And the new developments were trying to get pcs the gains they'd been promised in earier levels. The only trouble is, it simply didn't work. Sure, there were gains, but not the life changing OT/clear type phenomenon which was the "bridge".

    But no one would admit it. After all, if one expressed disappointment, that their own OT 3 for instance didn't achieve what they'd expected.... well that would mean you the pc were at fault. It sure wasn't the tech. Cause it worked for everyone else, right? Only it didn't. But everyone was afraid to admit it.

    I have never met anyone who was an OT or exhibited any OT phenomenon. Come on, really, do you think that anyone, myself or others, who saw true OTness in the flesh would ever leave a situation which might lead to such OTness for oneself? Of course not. That would be crazy. People left for various reasons. I left because the cause I was dedicating my life to simply couldn't be achieved through Scn. It didn't produce the promised product.

    Please don't read that to mean there weren't short term simple gains with Scn in many poeple. Self introspection often leads to such realizations. Some realizations could even be very significant in one's life. But did they add up to the results promised as one paid their last cent to go up the bridge? No.

    Hubbard was human. WIth perhaps a keen insight to the way humans thought. And a writer's imagination. And some ingenious marketing insights. H grew old. He suffered physical infirmities. His senses faltered. His body responded as do all of ours to the process of aging. He had days of insight, and days of blindness when he couldn't figure out anything. He came within the scope of being human. Not OT. Not a god or even shadow of one. And certainly not the result of advanced processing, of what it was sup of posed to be.

    But he tried. He felt his assessment of the mind would work. but it didn't. His underpinnings were flawed.


    20th July 2012, 04:32 AM


    Re: trepidatious

    It seems the more I say, the more questions are raised, some very valid and important. There are also questions that require my opinion, and some that want a recital of facts. I prefer to stick with what I saw personally, what I experienced, though those experiences did lead to my making conclusions.

    People, to use Christian nomenclature, have a God sized hole. Everyone ponders the unanswerable questions of theology. And they try to find a vehicle that can lead them to the answers, and perhaps spiritual growth they crave.

    Scn presented a more modern approach to dealing with age old questions of theology. And it did present some good tools, such as study tech and communication skills, which led to hope that the lofty levels would achieve the miraculous results that were touted. Scn also played upon the natural instinct of most good people to want to do good for others. Read "Boots in the Sky", an eloquent missive by Hubbard soliciting people to take responsibility.

    The desire to do good, to fill the "God sized hole", blinded people to a truly unbiased assessment of actual results. It happens in most religions. Hope hid reality. Why else could anyone believe the hyperbole of OT3? It is easy to detect radioactive half lifes to determine whether nuclear explosions occured in the distant past. It is now technologically possible to date the advent of this universe. Yet despite demonstrable evidence that the story of OT 3 simply wasn't true, people to this day choose to believe the science fiction story. Of course when the details of OT 3 were first penned the technology to refudiate the OT 3 claims wasn't available. But it is now. For anyone chosing to investigate. Yet people continue to find OT 3 stories credible.

    But a question that no one has touched upon here is this; Does the end justify the means?

    Once one has drank the Kool-aid, and believes the salvation of planet earth and all beings on it rested squarely on the shoulders of the chosen few of Scn and the prophet Hubbard, is there anything a good person wouldn't do to protect that salvation? Steal? Assault? Worse?

    You can see so many examples in the modern world of people deciding the ends do justify the means. Muslim extremists kill themselves and others. Fanatical Christians disallow medical care that could save their ill children. Crusaders murdered innocent children and women. Nazis clean the human race by murdering Jews.

    Is it any surprise that the same human nature that leads to such absurdities as these also ran, and continues to run rampant in Scn? How many, if they felt the fate of all humanity hung in the balance, wouldn't do whatever it took to preserve such salvation? It is easy to sell the bill of goods, as it has for a millenia.

    But I wax philosophic.... So let me tell a story.

    When the separation of GO and MSH from Hubbard/mainstream Scn was taking place, one of the secret locations was no longer hidden and safe enough. And the worry was the FBI was going to attack. All staff was gathered and every document, every pc folder etc was gone through. We didn't sleep for days, vetting anything (not crossing out, but usually cutting out dangerous passages) so that if and when the FBI raided the site, they would find nothing. I spent three days up, as did most of the staff, numb with tiredness, trying to protect the sanctity of Scn by deleting any passage that could be damming.

    We began to shift to the next secret base, shaking in our shoes that the FBI would raid the place at any moment.

    In this same time the Jonestown massacre had recently occured, and many analogies (perhaps deservedly) were being made between the Jonestown victims and Scientologists. The thought was the FBI was moving full steam ahead, to perhaps protect us from our selves.

    As we abandoned the base, someone had a sense of humor. Packages of Kool-aid were taped to the wall, with a sign under each stating; "Drink in case of FBI raid."

    Another day in the life...



    20th July 2012, 01:30 PM


    trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by I told you I was trouble View Post

    Hi Cowboy,



    I have no interest whatsoever in the old man, I know what he was and I couldn't care less about him, but I have one question for you if that's OK ... did you like him?
    How can I not answer that?

    No. Though, when I first me him, I was stunned by his reputation, but time showed me the king wore no clothes.


    20th July 2012, 03:07 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by LA SCN View Post
    Were you still in touch with Leo Johnson when he and Pamela Lancaster were married?

    I met him once while Hubbard was still alive, February, 1984, and found him to be very interesting and nice. Seemed to me he had the quality a lot of old ot7's I knew had - a lot of affinity. I believe he has since passed on.
    I wasn't in touch with him when he married. I considered him a true friend, a wonderful guy, and one of the few I ever met respected by Hubbard and who spoke with Hubbard as an equal (sort of, respectfully).




    20th July 2012, 03:10 PM

    Default Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    Let me see if I understand this. Her husband makes her the head of the most dangerous job in Scientology (while secretly being her boss), equivalent to painting a red target on her back, and when the fit hits the shan, tactfully has her deposed by placing the CMO over the GO, goes into even deeper hiding, and lets her take the rap for him, going to prison in his place, while he insists he didn't know anything.

    Sounds like her Husband screwed her to the wall, and also sounds like her husband led the way in making her a non-person, just as Quentin had become a non-person five years earlier.
    Absolutely and completely spot on, correct and better than I could have explained. Let me explain something. I didn't like MSH. I didn't get along with her. She was aloof, reserved, and cold.

    But I did respect her determination to do what she felt was right for her cause, no matter what the personal choice. it is only too bad that such self sacrifice was for a farce, and didn't even receive the recognition she deserved. But to have recognized her valor would have been for the church to admit she was taking one for the cause... and possibly open the door to incriminating Hubbard.


    20th July 2012, 03:57 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by R6Basic View Post
    I'm really enjoying this thread.

    I'll repeat an earlier question.

    Did you ever see Hubbard wearing glasses?

    In Dn. he wrote that during clearing people's eyesight would improve.
    Then I remember something he said about overts ( I think it was overts) leading to poor eyesight I remember the quote "That's why you see glasses on everyone's noses."

    I believe it was in 'A Piece of Blue Sky' that said Hubbard were glasses but not in public.
    As I recall he occassionally wore glasses.

    His body responded to the wear and tear of aging like everyone's. The body changes with age, as he found out, with little regard to the benefits of Scn that was supposed to change that. In fact, if anything, his body weathered the ravages of time less well than the normal.




    20th July 2012, 04:11 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    So, it was a good week. Hubbard was pleased with the CMO, and we were going to get a reward.

    In the days of Disco fever, the Bee Gees were the end all. And, guess what, they were going to be playing at Dodger's Stadium, just a couple hours away. Hubbard footed the bill and we got tickets, and being goal oriented, we sent some advance guys down to the field to secure good seats on the grass in front of the stand. The question was, once the rest of us got there, how would we find the group holding our spot on the field?

    We couldn't just hold a sign saying "Scientologists here". Some one decided to hold up a sign with the symbol for musical notes, which would be the rallying point for us.

    We all left GHS and traveled to Dodger's Stadium, and then found the plackard. But, ironically, someone not with our group in the field mistook the music symbol for the Scn symbol and asked us if we were Scientologists. lol. True! Of course we denied it, stating we were a music group studying the Bee Gees.

    This pointless story doesn't have a bad ending. It was fun. A relief from the coal mines. And a moment of pleasure I remember to this day, being dragged from the dredges of my memory by the recent death of one of the Bee Gees. And Hubbard had pushed us to go have fun.

    I wonder, has this been written of on the internet?



    20th July 2012, 04:35 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by TG1 View Post
    Cowboy,

    What I'm taking from your stories thus far is that Hubbard acted like what I imagine a typical guru to be -- he had tremendous self confidence in himself, and his word was law. Sounds like everyone ran around in obedience to his supreme word and glance.

    Did those in service to him ever kvetch or natter about him and his inadequacies behind his back? Or was everyone in mental and emotional servitude? Or do you see it as something different?

    TG1
    What did we feel? That we were living with a very difficult man in order to help the world. But.... with time, each of us sewed the seeds of doubt, and then surity, that he was a nut, the tech didn't work, it was a con, etc. But no, it couldn't be talked about. Only after departure. It's funny, when I left I talked to friends at the time, who were still in as I left, who gave me the typical party line about departures. It was only years later after they left that they admitted to having the exact same feeling I did.

    Husbands turned in wives, friends turned in friends, etc. There was no communication on banned subjects. Nothing could be repeated that might come up in a sec check.

    First, faith in Hubbard as a guru was lost.

    Then, faith in technology results faded, and, as eyes opened, we saw the very limited gains from the most basic of scn techs (which largely were borrowed from other studies).

    But that which is in motion tends to remain in motion. So, long after realizations, many still hadn't changed their habits, though, they new in their hearts, the truth.

    But it got to the point where each person realized that to stay in not only was bad for themselves, but hurt, rather than helped others.



    20th July 2012, 08:52 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Rain View Post
    Do you think she was in love with him? Did they always have separate rooms?
    They had separate rooms going back to the ship. I don't know before that. Did she love him? Every day LRH would dictate a letter to MSH (when they were separated) and he made her aware of everything going on in his life. They were bonded in a united cause. She wouldn't have sacrificed what she did were it not for, at the very least, strong feelings toward him and the church. Were they affectionate? No. But many couples of that age aren't. They looked at one another as partners. I do feel the legal situation caused great duress that led to near complete dissolution.




    20th July 2012, 09:02 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Lure Rob & Hyde View Post
    Well cowboy, your response re "against his will "invokes for me a theory I have been testing.

    First of all I have to say you are cordial and empathetic in your replies to posters who ask for details that are important to them.

    I myself do not care in the least for the anecdotes of the Hubbard's lives or their cohorts.

    What interests me is stuff like the first Act in Hubbard's Advanced Axioms & Procedures original book.
    In it he states something to the effect "The auditor lends himself as the control center of the group during the seesion and at the end of the session gives control back to the preclear " .
    This to me is a furthering of his fallacy "auditor plus pc is greater than the (non-existent ) bank "
    My theory is that the control is never given back to the preclear but goes on auto command from there on and the pc/subject becomes very suggestible.
    Hypnotism now comes into play with also auto suggestion very possible (affirmations)
    Can now the subject's consent be engineered by the operator (regges ,recruiters and all the rest ) using Dianetics or Scientology material.
    It appears in my view this action is a constant throughout the cult member's life in the cult and clouds his own motivations with those of the operator.
    There is more to this and Arnie Lerma is the best source for references I know of.
    My point is that Hubbard himself fell prey to his own questionable methods and it explains for me his own schizophrenia .
    The "against his will" answer lies in this area is my theory .
    Have you ever witnessed any statement of the use of hypnotism by Hubbard such as Margerie Wakefield stated when one day he said to her " It's all just hypnotism" ?
    Look, I don't look at it as that complicated. The whole tech story, well, 90% of it, was technical rubbish... good story, made sense, didn't work out with results. I don't have any faith in the vast majority of Scn teachings. Especially the upper level stuff. Hubbard could bedazzle one with technical details, but, seeing through the razamataz led one to see that it was all just window dressing.

    I think people are vulnerable to suggestion. I think people want to become more spiritual. I think people want to get closer to God. I think people want to help. But those common denominators, along with the technical window dressing, led many people to really fail to use critical analysis in assessment of techiques and their results.

    Look, at one point I'd read almost everything he'd written in any area of tech especially. I don't understand why people here continue to try to define things using Scn terms, thought processes, etc. I'm not saying there wasn't some good, even in the policy areas, but the complicated principles that might sound good on paper didn't add up.

    I think you'll have a better understanding if you view Hubbard as a gifted Sci-fi writer, gifted marketer, gifted mesher of previous metaphysical principles, who was eventually taken in by his own line of thinking... despite evidence to the contrary.



    20th July 2012, 09:13 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by TG1 View Post
    Thanks, Tory.

    I obviously did a piss-poor job with that post. I could tell Cowboy interpreted it differently than I'd meant to communicate. But I hated to interrupt the flow of conversation to clarify it.

    Now I'll bother to clarify:

    "The trouble with Scientology is ...."

    That's what I meant to emphasize. The trouble was that it "worked" unpredictably, occasionally, unreliably, with some people. Intermittent positive reinforcement is so much more effective than reinforcement given every time you push that little lever hoping for a tasty pellet. It's the hoping and wondering and mystery of it all that motivates you to keep on tap-tap-tapping.

    Everyone who's here eventually woke up enough to leave. For some (like me) it happened many decades ago. For others who are still arriving here daily, it happened last year or earlier this year.

    The mysteries I mentioned for me are not spiritual mysteries -- they are mysteries of human behavior. I find our species eternally fascinating. But being human, it's hard for me to gain the perspective to understand ourselves. Everyone takes something beneficial from ESMB and for me it's a forum where people are (mostly) honest, which helps me explore the ways humans choose to make their lives meaningful and rewarding.

    I don't think I'll ever stop trying to peel the next layer of scales from my eyes about that.

    TG1
    Sorry if I misinterpreted your previous post. Respectfully, I'm going to disagree with you here. WIth the exception of certain fundementals which I've talked about earlier, communication, study tech, etc. I don't think Scn ever worked.

    By work I mean give the result which it promised.

    Got wins, cogs, feel goods, smiles, reassurances, withholds off.... But I define working by the simple question of did it produce what it promised. What there ever an OT 3? An OT 8? A clear? A power grad? Go back and read the definition of those steps. It doesn't say that you'd feel good and get some cogs. Each level listed life changing overwhlemingly positive results, and I never, ever, under any circumstances saw that. And I knew the highest levels of auditing and the results.... and the troubles when the OTs would explain in session their disappointment with the results.

    I watched the last Tudors episode last night. Interesting, in the end King Henry the VIII, as the head of the Church of England, has his dying friend kneel before him, and explains he has the power to heal and commands him to be healed.

    The friend is buried the next day.

    That, in a nutshell, was Hubbard. So convinced that he could do miracles he didn't spend the time needed to see he wasn't creating miracles.

    Again, this may annoy people here. I'm not saying there never was a good result from Scn. I'm saying the VFP that we all shot for in going up the bridge never, ever occured, in anyone. Period. There never was a clear. There never was an OT. In fact I could more easily make the arguement that there was frequently bad effects of trying Scn counseling to reach spiritual improvement.

    Sorry if my candor offends.


    20th July 2012, 09:16 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Jquepublic View Post
    Cowboy, I have a question about something that maybe you could answer. I was told that Hubbard once assigned an SO member the condition of No Condition. Did you ever witness or hear anything like that? And if so do you remember the circumstances?

    I know it's a strange question but it's one that has bugged me since I heard the story.
    Don't recall it. No point in worrying yourself about something that did or didn't happen.... it could have. The man if anything was unpredictable.




    20th July 2012, 09:55 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn View Post
    My theory is that Hubbard himself was sexually abused as a child, specifically by Naval Psychiatrist Commander "Snake" Thompson

    It would explain his creation of a fake navy made up of teenagers to order around and the use of pre-teen messengers to dress him in the morning, and the imaginary evil psychs that his fake navy is battling

    It would also explain why he wasn't capable of having a functional relationship with anyone

    He pretty much abused everyone he came in contact with that let him, and he surrounded himself with impressionable children and teenagers because most adults have no use for a douchebag like him,

    but I don't think he sexually abused children

    ... now physical, mentally and emotionally abusing them is another story.

    He got as much pleasure from making people suffer and forcing his authority on them as his protégé Miscavige does right now.
    Yes, you make good conclusions. No, he didn't sexually abuse children. I have no information on whether he was abused as a child, and frankly, if I did, I probably wouldn't divulge it.

    You have cogent insights.




    21st July 2012, 02:45 AM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateAndBum View Post
    Can you be more specific: Did you ever witness Hubbard physically attack, strike, choke, etc. anyone? Or order such things it to be done? Or witnessed it and condoned it by approving or doing nothing?
    One time he slapped someone when he didn't like what they said. I wasn't there, but I dealt with the aftermath of it. It was in La Quinta. Most of his heavy handedness was through screaming, cursing, belittling etc. And of course I would consider the RPF, which he devised in 1974, as abuse.



    21st July 2012, 02:57 AM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    Thanks Cowboy for the response to my question about MSH. I have always felt she was special. I would hear him mention her on various tape lectures, and you could hear the affinity between them. I also recall seeing the picture of her all dressed up in one of the old auditor mags. I remember Henning Heldt saying how proud he was getting a "well done Henning from her."

    I have two more questions - how was his relationship with his kids?

    How did you (and others, if you know how they felt) deal with starting to see that the tech wasn't all it was cracked up to be? It sounds like you and many others persisted beyond the point it was obvious the tech was a sham, and he was making it up. Why? Was there some hope, that despite the tech's lack of results, still something good come come from all of it?

    Mimsey

    Good questions Mimsey. First, his relationship with his kids was strained. None of the parental stuff you'd normally see, although he did buy Archie a jeep and trailer on one birthday. It wasn't warm. Occassionally Archie would eat with him. Of course, you know what happened with Quentin. Insofar as Zettie and Di, well, there weren't father/daughter talks, time together, etc. He cared for them. Right or wrong, when Zettie was with a guy he disapproved of, he did the bribe thing on her. The two girls didn't live on the same base as him.

    I believe that as an outsider when indications the tech didn't work, one thinks that they are simply out of it, missing something, because everyone else was dancing to the drum and they couldn't all be wrong, could they? So we stayed, drinking the Kool-aid.

    I have to say the the old man believed the tech would work. After all, he sought counseling and further levels to deal with his own case. He believed in himself and the tech he had started.

    Of course most of the tech of the last ten years of his life wasn't developed by him. He had some input, definitely, and would occassionally pen a bulletin, or dictate one, or dictate part and instruct others to finish it, or flesh it out.

    We would keep our eyes on the goal, not the minutae of did it work.

    It is sort of like a modern day soldier being dropped into Iraq. The soldier didn't stop what he was doing and ask himself is the war fair, proper, etc. He would do what he was trained to do, though in moments of quiet a soldier might question whether the war was worthwhile. the soldier would assume he's a small cog, and doesn't know the whole picture, militarily or politically. That's how it was at the top.

    Only a few people at the very top had the oversight of the complete picture... the good and the bad. Most staff were too busy working to advance up the bridge themselves. The glowing success stories convinced them that even if they didn't get the results, at least they were helping others to get the results.



    21st July 2012, 01:06 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by degraded being View Post
    Is it true then, in your opinion that Huddard believed:
    ...that the tech had already worked
    ...that the tech didn't work yet
    ...that the tech would work
    ...that he wanted the tech to work for him and 'crack his case'
    ...that he didn't give a damn whether it worked or not on others as long as they
    believed it worked
    ...that he was interested in it working on others-as-guinea-pigs

    and...that he may have wanted it to work on others for other reasons at times...both "good reasons" and bad reasons...



    ALL SORT OFF AT THE SAME TIME over the years, because of what would usually be seen as conflicting purposes/desires or motivations?

    I also wonder if you consider that Hubbard was organised or disorganised or whether on these things it would have to be said that he was very organised in some ways with extreme disorganization in other ways?
    Wow. Let me take a shot at this.

    I believe, superficially, that Hubbard thought the tech worked (to an extent). This was because;
    1. He'd have personal praise and thanks from people he'd run into, in person and in writing.
    2. He'd established assumptions on the human mind, one based on the other, and if one was off, the whole premise would come tumbling down.
    3. Bad news, bad case results, would seldom be brought up to him. When they were they were primarily viewed as auditor failure or pc ethics issues.
    4. However, he knew that people weren't getting the full marketing snippet results. Exterior with full perception, fully cleared with the benefits of that, OT 3. But he knew people could feel good or get a cog.
    5. The exception was what led to NED. The Dntcs results were not present, so it had to be modified in hopes to achieve some of the DMSMH promises.
    6. He sought his own salvation through auditing, hoping to help. I never asked him; "Are you aware that after all your processing you're not even a clear?"
    7. I would say that he thought the tech "could" work, if it was researched a bit more, developed etc. This also would allow further levels to be developed and marketed.
    8. At the time I departed I had seen files on at least another dozen OT levels, in their infancy, which were to be developed.

    Organized? Well, the CMO did his organization, not him. Hubbard was forgetful, irrational and well, had other characteristics which most are familiar with.

    He knew that he'd not become a product of Scn according to the marketing results which were being advertised. He could not exteriorize with perception, read someone's mind, control the health and deteriorization of his body, teleport, move matter, do parlor tricks, get better outside the bounds of medicine, tell the future, heal someone else with supernatural methods, etc. He was not a God, demi-god, partial god, Godlike, etc. and I'd have to say I wouldn't even define him as a spiritual role model.

    If he had charateristics that I wanted to copy and have in my own life, or inspiring abilities I wanted to gain and thought I could, I wouldn't have left.

    He could make a stream of logic, and tie it to a story, but the results were not consistent.

    EG;

    God is love.
    Love is blind.
    Ray Charles is blind.
    God must be Ray Charles.

    True statements. Faulty conclusion.

    I still see people here trying to conform their belief systems to Scientology principles, though most have seen results were deficient and Hubbard had some personal credibility problems. Such as; Tone scale, conditions of existence, etc.

    While there is truth in some of those things, I don't hold them as true. They are principles he categorized and wrote about, and I'm surprised to continue to see things here defined in those terms.

    When we depart I think the urge is to justify, or hope that at least some of the tech was correct, at least our years of dedication had some merit. I took the standpoint that nothing works, and then, through analysis, took a very, very few kernels that I agreed could overall have benefit. This is opposite Hubbard, who believed in his divine power and felt that most things he said, like the Pope, with inarguable and correct.

    Again, I ask people here, has anyone seen anyone who ever showed the EP as touted by Scn of an OT or Clear? It certainly wasn't in Hubbard. I have no evidence to believe the result is present in top execs of the church now.

    Sorry for the long post.



    21st July 2012, 01:12 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by BardoThodol View Post
    Otto?
    It was Steve Irwin, who was the husband of a CMO exec. He was groundskeeper and the old man was upset at something on the grounds. Wacked across the face.



    21st July 2012, 02:09 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    Can you say more about that?

    Marty says there is nothing comprehensible after OT8. On the other hand, Pierre Ethier gives details of higher levels, although it is not clear to me (maybe I missed it) if these are his own idea, or something Hubbard laid out somewhere:

    http://pierreethier.wordpress.com/ot...s-ahead-of-us/

    I'm not interested in *doing them*, just interested in sorting out whose PR is whose.

    Paul

    Two things would happen. A direction of research would be developing, and the old man would say, make that for OT 12 or so. These were not fully developed processes, but the skeletal structures. He might say, hey, that's way too advanced for now... so push that down the line. File it. Or their were marketing goals, higher level of human achievement or results which sounded good that he'd explain we'd tie into some future level.

    Of course no one knew what OT 8 was gonna be at first. Several different things were looked at, sometimes drawing from notes on future levels. First the great awe inspiring marketing words were developed, and then people scrambled to try to find things that could back up the claims.

    Several versions of OT 8 were discussed. Of course none of them lived up to the marketing hype of OT 8.



    21st July 2012, 02:26 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    Hi Cowboy - could you give an example of a typical day for Hubbard? I seem to recall he slept in two shifts, and I have read posts that he worked long hours, like he was driven. A follow up question - what was he so involved with that took all the time?

    He kept saying he needed to be left alone for more OT research. Was it all administrative and executive problems that consumed him? It seems if everybody was keeping bad news from him those issues should have been minimal.

    I tend to believe your point he believed in his tech to a large degree - he spent too many years, too many thousands of written words, too many tape lectures on the subject, for me to believe he thought it was all BS. Who could expend that much effort, that much time on something they didn't believe in?

    Mimsey
    Up in the am at varying hours, usually 8 or nine. Breakfast. Then some work. Could be AV work, could be taking some photos or cine work. Lunch. Sometimes a nap, especially when he was getting older and more ill. Then take a walk (when he was at a place where he could walk and wasn't afraid.) If he was on a set, lunch would be followed by more cine work.

    After dinner was his primary work time. A messenger would bring in a stack of stuff to review. A recorder would be set, and Hubbard would dictate commentary on various submissions. Usually he didn't read the submissions. The messenger, being familiar with the area, would explain what the issues were and he'd respond. Sometimes the messenger wouldn't have time to present the whole situation before he'd be off on a tangent with part of the info. NB this is one manner in which messenger biases affected decision making, because the issues were usually verbally described by the messenger. Usually, in specialized areas, financing, tech, AV or cine, a messenger specialized in those areas would review the issues, questions, etc and write his orders. Usually the work ended with him pushing the stack of undone stuff away and saying "okay on your okay. I'm done."

    He'd dictate an MSH letter almost daily. This would be destroyed by MSH after reading to minimize appearance of connnection between her and him and/or the church.

    He'd spend a lot of time chatting with messengers on the issues of the day and his thoughts. Some mild. Some overwhelming in anger. Some a true test of messenger confront.

    To his bedroom. Watch a movie or two with a messenger. Then get his foot massage machine out and put up his feet. Get his face rubbed with a massager by a messenger, using a special cream, being careful to always stroke the jowls upward, not downward. Then one of those hand massagers you slip over your finger would be used to rub his back. To bed usually around one or two.

    There were also auditing times, usually later afternoon or early evening. And often coming out of session he'd call up the tech messenger to review thoughts of additional processes, changes, etc. after having just had his session. Why something worked or didn't work, finger pointing, sometimes constructive criticism, sometimes a cramming order for the auditor or cs.
    His schedule varied with his health, his current projects, whether he had the freedom to take a walk, whether he was filming, shooting photos, etc.

    Hope this helps.



    21st July 2012, 06:17 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    Thanks cowboy for the visit. Look forward to future visits.

    One question, that probably qualifies as trivia, comes to mind. Did Hubbard ever stop smoking?

    I remember a photo of Hubbard fondling a pack of filterless KOOLs while siting at his desk on the ship, yet I've also read that, during the car trip of early 1976, from Florida to New York, the route was suddenly changed because Hubbard was having difficulty breathing, and a substitute destination of Washington, DC was chosen.

    One would expect that Hubbard would have to quit smoking eventually.

    Did he?

    If not, where did he obtain filterless KOOLs in the late 1970s and early 1980s?

    He never stopped smoking when I was there. I don't know where he got his smokes. The purser obtained them.



    21st July 2012, 06:46 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    Thanks.

    I guess a companion question, if you see this, is, "Did he drink alcoholic beverages?"

    I assume, that with health issues that seemed to arise roughly around 1970 or so, he would have modified or terminated consumption of alcohol, and possibly also coffee (caffeine).

    I'm surprised he kept smoking, but I guess that would be the hardest habit to break, and thus the last to go.
    He rarely drank, in moderation. He drank Postum, to avoid caffeine.





    21st July 2012, 08:36 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by TG1 View Post
    I enjoyed this thread immensely, for your information and perspective. I also like your message to OSA in the other thread you started this weekend.

    And if you have time for one more question, what prompted you to finally come here now to ESMB to talk about those old days and your thoughts and feelings about Scientology?

    Thanks,

    TG1
    I had a fomer scn friend who recently died of cancer. Prior to his death we had several discussions about his viewpoints on Scn, experiences, let downs and ultimate complete loss of faith. I saw how the belief system in Scn had ravaged his life, and may have contributed to his death. He had sought scn based spiritual resolution of his cancer, rather than effective medical remedies. Though he didn't actively pursue counseling for his infirmity, his understanding of spiritual truths through his training in Scn led to his treatment choices.... by the time he saw his error an otherwise curable cancer had metastacized and cost him his life.

    I also ran into someone familiar with the current atrocities still ongoing which makes my heart cry out at the injustices.

    This led me here.

    In answer to the other posts expressing disappointment I didn't give more dirty laundry.... which I could....

    Why? I could give example after example that would corroborate the beliefs you already have as to Hubbard's character. But why add fuel to the fire? Most here already have tremendous conviction of this.

    In the late seventies Hubbard felt that society as we knew it was about to end. At his orders we ordered assault rifles, and stores of gas, to be used in the coming chaos. Missions were sent out to recruit more SO members, in preparation for the dissolution of society. It was imminent, he explained, and the bastion of civilization would rest on the shoulders of Scn.

    A few people were even shown his memo, to urge them into Scn as staff.

    Of course it didn't happen. The world continued on. But people's lives were ruined.

    In the last many years of his life Hubbard was racked by physical and mental infirmities. The CMO was the buffer that did their best to hide that image, The depth of his developing incoherence couldn't be made public. Paranoia was just one aspect of the disintegration.

    There are many things best left unsaid. Detailing them would serve no constructive purpose.

    Even as to current management, you here know the truth. I could corroborate it, with examples, but you already have certainty about the key characters involved.

    That has been my thought process.




    22nd July 2012, 12:58 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    Alright - I have a question for you Cowboy, a point that was brought up was that he didn't want to be controlled by his creation. It seemed like he would hand out all sorts of advice - but was a hypocrite - didn't follow things like being ethical, taking the time to put out good products, etc. Was he always this way? Or was your time with him when he was deteriorating?

    Because, I don't get why he would ignore basic points of ethical behavior. Perhaps he is /was a narcissist and was not capable of ethical behavior? I guess a good question would be - in trying not to be controlled by his creation, he was trapped and bound to it like it was glue. Having created this mythical spiritually based religion, by having put himself up as the only source, he trapped himself into being an unwilling guru, chained to his creation and his solution was isolation. Is that a fair assessment?

    I think I read somewhere he wished there was someone to put in his ethics, someone he could consider his equal. In a way, losing MSH, could that have been the beginning of the end for him? Or just another step along a path started ages ago

    Mimsey
    During the time I was with him he was rapidly physically and mentally deteriorating. However, in talking to people who'd been with him going back even further, who were still around, his objectionable behavior patterns had been around as long as they'd known him.

    I don't think one could have gotten objectivity from LRH. He'd spent his life expounding on metaphysical aspects of man.... quantifying, categorizing, incorporating with other belief systems to develop into a sepecific school of thought that became Scn. And he was encouraged by some of his successes.

    He wasn't the only source. A few people people had the bulk of the responsibility to tech development for many years before his death, going back to the mid-seventies. Such work was overseen by him in a limited fashion, though came out over his name.

    One of the legal questions later became was technology that was developed by others while working for the church the individual or the church's possession. the answer was it was the church's, the same with an invention which might be discovered by an engineer employed at Honeywell. there are court cases in the public realm, with depositions etc, which belabor this point.

    He isolated himself to surround himself with acolytes, and because of his fear of attack.


    He hoped he had succeeded where no one else in all of creation had. And, in his mind, the end justified the means. There are examples of this well known today, of blackmail, crimes, and moral breaches, which, in his mind, were not "out ethics" because he was involved in the greatest endeavor by mankind ever, and nothing could get in the way.

    What purpose, I asked myself, was served in forwarding the salvation of mankind, by Hubbard ordering someone to be spit on? By striking a groundskeeper? By blackmailing a government official? By humiliating those around him who had dedicated their life to helping him save the world? Even if the end did justify the means, couldn't that means that transgressed normal boundaries have been limited to where it was absolutely needed to stop Scn from being wiped out, rather than being used as a justification to permit horrible behavior on a regular basis?

    Hubbard viewed himself as an expert on almost everything. Music experts would be brought in to help score movie tracks, but they didn't know what the hell they were doing and Hubbard had to teach them. A marketing guru with a long resume of success was brought in but he didn't know what the hell he was doing so Hubbard had to teach him. An AV sound engineer with extensive experience in the outside world was brought in but she didn't know what she was doing, so Hubbard had to teach her. By his "know best" he isolated himself. The people he surrounded himself had to be "yes men" or they weren't there. And, Hubbard was the fonte of all knowledge in every area.

    The only trouble was, in deep discussions with many of the experts, it became readily apparent that Hubbard had no idea what he was saying. The experts shed tears of frustration with me many times, at their desire to help, while having to deal with the irrelevant, contradictory and uninformed orders and expositions coming from Hubbard. these experts would be punished, screamed at, humiliated, RPFed, and eventual leave, their advice and expertise unheeded.

    For example, one night I sat with him, with three major topics to review, each decision that had to be made was predicated upon the information I would review. In other words item three couldn't be determined until item two was determined and item two could not be determined until item one was resolved. I set the tape recorder up (luckily).

    I told Hubbard I had three items to review that needed his input, and that they had to be done in a specific order. He grabbbed item three from my stack, started reading, shouting, screaming.... I tried to explain that it wouldn't make sense until we resolved item 1 and 2 first. He screamed more, yelled, accusations flew... and I was assigned a lower condition because of... heck, I don't even remember what he said it was for.

    So I report to ethics, along with Hubbard's order to send me to the bottom of the barrell and play the tape of the incident. The tape shows I explained the situation thoroughly, and that Hubbard just wouldn't listen. My CMO ethics off agrees No wrong doing. However Hubbard ordered it... so I do the conditions anyway.

    This school of understanding also explains how Hubbard developed the Purification RD based on unsound medical principals, that result in deaths. He felt he knew the body, medicine, etc. There was no such thing as research. The principles had to be true, because he was expousing them and he... was Hubbard!

    The purif started with a heavy set individual who was to be an expert in an area in which Hubbard was pushing for outside experts to be recruited. So, a recruiter found him and recruited him to work at SU. The only trouble was he had a history of drug abuse. Hubbard decided to make him burn his fat and release past stored drugs with heavy exercise. He donned a plastic exercise suit and ran through the heat of the desert of La Quinta. Hubbard developed other principles that became the Purif RD.

    The only trouble was, the old man wasn't a doc. The principles of the purif weren't all sound and were physically dangerous. We see the results of that now in the deaths.

    So, to summarize, Hubbard, as the end all of all knowledge, isolated himself from both expert advice and advice of well meaning people around him.

    Does this answer your question?





    22nd July 2012, 01:11 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Thank you, Cowboy - what you've passed on here has been invaluable as it presents Hubbard as a man, not a Superman "OT" nor the Devil Incarnate. Just a man with a man's strengths and weaknesses.

    I want to ask one question and it's of your opinion more than anything:

    Much has been made of DM's so-called "reign of terror" and how it's He who is destroying the cult or it's He who has created a culture of violence and fear. A number of years ago I posed the question here on ESMB: is DM a "True Believer" of Scientology or is He busy knowingly running a scam on those who are True Believers. I never really could get an answer but I decided that, despite His own obvious insanities, DM is actually just trying to Keep Scientology Working in His own warped way and He probably counts His stats every week and tries to get upstat just like the rest of us did.

    Which leads to: did Hubbard actually run off stats himself? Did he (to your knowledge) apply those "staff basics" to his life and "post" like he exhorted the rest of us to do? What did you see that would lead you to an answer one way or the other on this?

    Thanks again for sharing your experiences with us and, as someone else has already said, please write up your memories for posterity, even if they are only to be opened long after the main actors have passed away. They are therapeutic for many of us in an enormous way to finally understand what was the reality instead of the myths we had been fed.

    Did lrh run off stats.... sure. If stats were down in a sector, he's review/discuss pertinent information with the messenger involved. The messenger would usually have made a recommendation of actions/orders to help the situation, which he would okay and the orders would go out in his name.

    However, if stats were down, it was never his fault. It was some sp somewhere, or some incompetent, of some squirrel. Lowered stats were never because of dissatisfaction of his technology or policies.




    22nd July 2012, 01:29 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateAndBum View Post
    Cowboy, You talked a little about these upper OT levels, and it seemed like there were others involved doing the research. Could you elaborate on what and how "research" was done?

    I think Mayo had said that Hubbard had audited a level beyond Solo NOTs.

    Thanks for the info you have provided. Best wishes to you and your family!
    Research took several routes.

    One, in meetings with his highest tech people, Hubbard would often give an order to review and develop an area. For instance, NED was an extension of Dianetics with principles already developed. Very, very, very little of it was written by Hubbard.

    NOTS was developed based partly upon earlier principles, with some expansion of new principles, breaking into new territory.

    In his sessions Hubbard would sometimes tell his auditor things to look into... that information would be transferred to the tech developing team who was review whether that area had been already developed. If it didn't, processes would be developed toward that end, which were then sent to Hubbard for review and approval. Ultimately Hubbard became less and less involved in direct tech development. His name was a possession of the church, not his name, if that makes sense.

    As I mentioned in a post earlier, sometimes a goal which sounded very marketable (sellable) would be found and Hubbard would have it written down with orders to develop an OT level to go with the fancy phrases.

    Sometimes Hubbard was open to discussing, widening the range of tech developments, sometimes not. And it could flip/flop in a heart beat. In other words he might say and agree with one thing one night, and contradict himself the next.

    As his physical and mental status declined he searched "outside the box" for new tech that might bring him around, because the old tech certainly wasn't helping.



    22nd July 2012, 01:32 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by BardoThodol View Post
    Maybe this will be asked later on in the thread, but what is your take on the OT8 HCOB floating around the internet where LRH claims to be Lucifer, bringer of light, or some such.

    I never gave it much credence, but it was such an enormous PR nightmare I used it for a while when talking with Christians about Scientology. Scientology was trying so hard to pretend to be like normal churches with like beliefs.
    Simple. In the last decade of his life, Hubbard was frequently nuts.


    22nd July 2012, 02:01 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Jquepublic View Post
    I can appreciate your perspective, certainly I accept my own responsibility in what I experienced. I put myself there, I trusted, I believed, I endured. But the children had no choice in the matter and I'm sure we can all think of examples where freedom of choice and implicit agreement was no longer a factor. The truth is, we didn't all "pull it in". People recognised that Hubbard was not sane and they covered it up. I can't understand why.

    I'd read your book in a heartbeat. For what it's worth, the descriptions you've given so far of Hubbard, while they don't make me any fonder of him, are making it easier to forgive on some level. I find myself wishing for that same thing with those involved in perpetuating his madness on an organizational level.
    I had one overriding emotion toward Hubbard, superceding all others as time passed.

    Pity.

    Can you imagine believing you were the savior of the planet and mankind and finding that you'd spent your life on couldn't even save yourself?

    Can you imagine what it would be like to know that the overwhelming vast majority of people you thought were your friends ultimately fled?

    Can you imagine that you spent the bulk of your life in isolation and fear and separation from your family for naught?

    Can you imagine realizing that thousands of people had sacrificed themselves in belief of you..... and you were wrong?



    27th July 2012, 10:40 PM


    Re: trepidatious




    I have been reading this post.



    Another quick story.



    The old man eased back into his chair and reached a tremblinghand toward the pack of Kools. That wasthe signal. I snatched up the pack,popped one out, found the lighter and lighted the cigarette as he held it tohis mouth and drew deeply, then savored the smoked as he exhaled deeply. He heaved a heavy sigh. “I just can’t figure out the house at Gilman,”he explained. ”I want a Scottish motif”,he continued, “and no one can get the colors and architecture, and the plantsright. And to top it off, there’s allthis cactus? How in the world are wegoing to make these hills with cactus look like the green hills of Scotland?”

    He breathed another heavy sigh.

    I was on my knees near his feet, settling back on myhaunches once I’d gotten his cigarette going.

    “How much more do we have?” he asked.

    I lifted a stack of folder and glanced through the coversheets. “About six more submissions,” I responded. “A couple from Cine, somenew tech submissions, nothing that can’t wait.”

    “Good, good.”

    He scooted forward on his chair, blinked, started shaking,and extended his index finger and pointed toward the floor. “What the hell is that?”

    My heart skipped abeat when I glanced at what he was pointing at. It was mine. I took a deepbreath, knowing hell was about to break loose. “It’s mine, sir,” I said, scooping it up as quickly as I could, tryingto slip it in my pocket.

    “Give it to me now,” he shouted. “Give it to me.”

    I handed it over. “Whatthe hell are you doing with this? Haven’tyou had the Drug Rundown.”

    “It’s a Vicks Vaporub, sir,” I explained. “It’s just menthol. I had a little congestion from you allergiesso I used it.”

    “Noooooooh,” he moaned. Then he shouted. “NO. NO. NO. That’s a drug! What are you doing coming on watch on drugs! I can’t believe you brought that here!”

    I blanched as he raised his finger and pointed it at me, hisrage practically making him suffer a coronary right then and there. “Who else is out there? You’re relieved from watch. Get out of here. NOW!”

    “We’re alone, sir. Istill have to get you into bed…”

    His whole body was shaking, and his face was turning red, asure indication of his anger. I searchedfor anything I could say to assuage his anger. “I expected more of you!” Hethrew the Vicks Vaporub down and I was unsure as to whether I should pick it upor leave it where it lay. “You’re adruggie! A God-damned druggie! Bringing drugs on watch….”



    A he searched for words to continue to berate me my mind wasspinning. Suddenly I can to a solution.

    “I know what we can do, sir,” I said calmly.

    “Whaaaat?”

    “I know what we can do. About the Scottish motif at Gilman.”

    He blinked.

    “I figured out what we can do.”

    He breathed heavily, his face losing some of its red color.

    “Well?”

    “Send me on a mission to Scotland, sir.”

    “I already know what it’s like there,” he responded. "We don’t need to do any research. They have it all wrong.”

    “But the cactus, sir.”

    “That’s the point, God-damn it! There’s no cactus there.”

    I smiled. “I’ll go onmission there and plant some. I’ll plantcactus all over Scotland. Then Gilmanwill look just like it. It’ll work. I’m sure of it.”

    He blinked again. Hisface became white again. He slapped histhigh. “Good idea!!” he laugheddeeply. “Don’t know why I didn’t thinkof that!”

    I breathed a sigh of relief. Catastrophe averted. I slippedthe Vicks Vaporub into my pocket.

    Into the bedroom.

    Foot massage on the fur lined foot massager which was turnedupside down so he could rest his feet on the vibrating surface. Massage calves with the circulating discmassager. Then special cream for theface, separate massager, never to get the calf massage head mixed up with theone used on his face. Then start theface, separate rejuvenating cream, stroking upward, pulling the heavy jowls up,rather than making the jowls droop more by stroking downward. Glove vibrating device, work on theback. He sighed in pleasure.

    “There was a culture, they worshipped their Gods ineffigies. I remember the parade, peoplein the street, worshipping these effigies which were everywhere.” He closed his eyes. “It was two million universes ago. I remember.”

    “Wow,” I said quietly. “Amazing. That’s a long time ago.”

    He nodded his head.

    “Tell Doe (Doreen Gilham) to have the cameras readytomorrow. I want to go shooting.”

    “Yes, sir.”

    “And make a note. Wehave to start dating things by universes. Not years.”

    “Yes, sir.”

    “You’ll be outside my room, tonight.”

    “All night, sir. I’llbe there.”

    He nodded.

    I helped him into bed and turned off the lights. As I reached the door, he spoke; “Don’t go yet,” in a harsh voice.

    Was I in trouble again?

    “That was funny. About the cactus in Scotland.”

    “Thank you, sir. Justtrying to make things go right.”

    “Good night, messenger,” he said.

    “Good night, sir.”

    I took my yellow pad, sat down Indian fashion outside thedoor, and started reviewing my notes, guarding, and there if he needed me untilI was to be relieved, four hours later.






    28th July 2012, 01:53 PM



    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by tookmeawhile View Post
    After reading cowboy's insights about LRH, I'm left with this twofold impression:

    That LRH was truly insane but really cared - in his own ways. That some of the policy and tech, and most of his actions may have been crazy, bad and sometimes very illegal. But in spite of all these obstacles, he somehow managed through luck, theta endowment and hard work, to create a very workable technology.

    That we should acknowledge and then just MOVE ON from any past moral digressions and/or crimes committed by ron and any other scientologist or executive; past or present.
    I would agree that he was insane but cared and the tech and his actions were crazy. I disagree in the strongest manner possible that he created a very workable technology. It does not, and has not, in my experience with OTs at the very top, including Hubbard, MSH etc. created the results that are promised. Never has, and, in my opinion, never will. The assumptions are fundamentally flawed. That's why Hubbard didn't enjoy health, physical or mental well being, or enhanced life expectancy which would have gone along with the advertised Scn alleged products.

    Show me a clear or OT created through Scn and I will retract this statement. But Hubbard certainly wasn't clear or OT or Power or even the definition of the lower levels.

    To add the caveat I've added several times in this post. Scn created wins, good feelings, cognitions, helped with study, learning how to communicate, averting drugs. It did not, however, give the wins and accomplishments advocated. The dirty, dark, scarcely admitted secret was that every top level OT had the same confession, which they would speak in sotto voce only when only I or a few others would listen; How come I don't feel those things the Bridge is supposed to deliver? How come I can't do those things? Is it me?



    29th July 2012, 12:35 AM
    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    I thoroughly enjoy your posts. But I don't agree with one thing you said there. It's not false based on the evidence at hand, some of which is directly from Hubbard himself.

    Even when Hubbard "knew" (admitted) that some piece of tech didn't work, he still continued knowingly selling it and defrauding others.

    In the late 50's Hubbard clearly stated in a filmed presentation that DMSMH did not produce clears.

    But Hubbard happily continued selling millions of those (unchanged) Dianetics books, courses & auditing intensives for decades thereafter.

    And long before that, Hubbard knew that nobody had achieved the described state of "Clear".

    He knew he didn't make any Clears or OTs. He knew he hadn't attained Clear or OT himself as well.

    That doesn't mean he was not severely mentally ill AND a criminal.



    I basically agree with this. Yes, his actions acted to screw people. I don't think he understood how broadly the results weren't being obtained. I talked before about how people would limit his data access. He hoped that if he could pull them along the next level and maybe then they'd get results. He knew that the marketing words for the level were exactly that, marketing words. And ultimately, Scn didn't even work on his own case and he was faced into that understanding.

    Once committed he couldn't take everything back. He was committed to a course that simply didn't produce.

    Money was definitely an aspect. He did enjoy the funds his PR campaigns were bringing in.




    3rd August 2012, 04:26 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by R6Basic View Post
    It's almost the weekend, maybe Cowboy will return and thread can get more back on track.
    Is that an invitation? I'm stuck in an airport on rain delay and couldn't help but open up and see what all my new friends have been talking about. I'm gonna make two posts, one of experiences, with little interpretation, and one with, well, cowboy's take on a couple things.

    A new messenger waited outside the door to the room that held his Majesty King Red. He was visibly shaking, nervous as all get out about meeting, and working with the old man. He was stuttering, going on about how awesome it must be being in the shadow of Source on a daily basis. He flinched when the old man's booming scream pierced through the doorway and another messenger, white-faced, came rushing out of the office with an armful of materials, the old man's voice screaming after her.

    The new guy blanched. "Come on, he can't be alone," I whispered to him. The guy nodded, but I had to prod him to get him to follow me into the room.

    I introduced him. The old man gave a grunt and pointed down at the pile of submissions which lay on the ground, where the messenger who'd been with him a moment ago until being dispatched on some urgent errand, had left them.

    I picked up the first, summarized what the submission was about. "Nooooh," the old man said, and reached for a cigarette.

    New Guy fumbled with the lighter and dropped it.

    New Guy knew something about the submission. He tried to explain the issue. "NOOOOOH," the old man said again. "You let them submit this crap?" he asked New Guy.

    New Guy just sat there, with his deer in the headlights look, and, unfortunately for him, nodded his head.

    "What the hell were you thinking?" the old man asked.

    New Guy couldn't figure out what to say.

    "Well, speak up man!"

    New guy remained immobile as the old man turned beet red and started yelling. "Get the hell out of here. Get off watch. You're no god-damned help," he told New Guy.

    I don't remember if he ever was allowed on watch again. Poor New Guy was slapped in the face with reality, rather than fantasy. He was crushed. He was demoted out of the messenger org, and never got the chance to make it to the top again. Hubbard criticized the hell out of him, saying his confront was out.

    It wasn't always easy to be yelled at by a God.

    I got yelled at a lot. Everyone around him did. MSH, messengers, the cook, the housekeeper. Earplugs were a good idea.

    I was screamed at, once, more severely than other times. He told me to get the hell out of his sight.

    I refused.

    He screamed some more.

    I explained it was my job to make sure he had information he needed to make decisions. That, sometimes, he didn't have all the information and so his decisions could be off. I, of course, couldn't say he was wrong. Although he was. Frequently. He wasn't the master of medicine, physiology, cinematography, audio, culinary arts, advertising, art, history, etc. that he believed, nor, indeed, of the human mind. Of course, I didn't explain that. I just explained that he needed to hear me out.

    He shut up and listened.

    He nodded, listened for a change, calmed down, and then moved on to another subject. He didn't give me a hard time, because he realized I'd saved his bacon.

    Of course I was yelled at many times after that. After a while, I gave up trying to change things. I'd see the same old people get in the same old trouble. Dan Auerback, David Wilson, Harvey Haber. Cine Staff.... it was easier to keep track of the two or three people who weren't on his bad side. God help you if you came on staff with any expertise, because then you had a target on your back.

    The secret mission of messengers was to diminsh his making a fool of himself. It was hard. Sometimes impossible.

    I had to RPF a kitchen staff member. The kitchen guy had let meat defrost on top of the white styrofoam it was packaged in, which was, in Hubbard's viewpoint, a sure indication the guy wanted to cause the meat to go bad and cause food poisoning.It was a diabolical plot to make the old man sick.

    Yep, Hubbard sure knew more than the rest of us stupid citizens of planet earth.




    3rd August 2012, 05:29 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Why do we have faith? Why do Christians believe God will hear their prayers and sometimes act on them, with no proof to support that? Why do Mormons believe they'll get their own planet when they die and that a tribe from the Middle East inhabited North America before the Indians? Why do Muslims die knowning they'll be trasported to heaven with a heavenly supply of virgins?

    It is human nature to have faith, not to use critical thinking in examining far-fetched claims. It is human nature to want to believe, and so we all let our analytical processess wane, and our hopes elevate at the thought that maybe Scn could do what it promised.

    I recently read an expose of why "Christians" lie about physical ailments and then act like they are publicly healed on TV or in seminars, to show their gains to others. When questioned they admit they falsify in order to bring others into the fold.

    We are all subjects of human nature. Our analytical processes wane because we so much want to believe that the spiritual goals of Scn, or indeed other paths, are legitimate. It is our nature!

    I studied a case where a Christian was so convinced of God's intervention, through the urgings of his Pastor, he threw away his diabetes medication. God had healed him through the actions of the exalted minister.

    The patient died shortly afterward, from complications of the diabetes.

    I don't bring this up to belittle Christianity, but to point out that it is human nature to believe and have faith, and not to examine results very closely.

    Hubbard believed. He knew that the results weren't what he promised, and, even in his own case, he didn't reach the levels of spiritual ascendency which he touted. But, he, like us, had faith, in himself and his spiritual belief set, that, sooner or later, he would find a way to elevate Mankind, and even himself.

    He never made it. He got skin cancer, indigestion, obesity, wrinkles, and other physical ailments, yet, if the Bridge is to be believed, he shouldn't have. He had trouble with his memory, his temper, his logic, anger management, interpersonal relationships and he certainly couldn't teleport, read people's minds, predict the future, change outcomes or effect things through his power of spirit alone. But, he, a frail human like us, refused to used analysis and skepticism to determine whether the vast school of Scn thought could, in any circumstances, do what he promised.

    But he hoped. He had faith. Anything needed to forward the cause was worthy of the sacrifice. People's lives, sanity, family, money, health, all didn't matter.

    He knew he hadn't achieved what he promised. He knew he overpromised and underdelivered. He also knew that he'd made erroneous decisions, oft times resulting in loss of careers, extreme punishment, and even loss of life.

    But, if we were immortal beings, what did one's life or family matter? For Hubbard and we were here to save the universe, and spiritual beings for all eternity.

    How easy it is to believe without regard for the facts. I wish I could still do that now.

    This is why, when I read that some people question my veracity, I applaud them, for it is better to question, to use one's mind, then follow and believe blindly.

    I essentially wanted to point out that this flaw in human nature is not unique to the followers of Scn. Indeed faith is a human failing of epidemic proportions.

    No, Hubbard wasn't a good man. He, in my estimation, wasn't someone you'd want to share time with.... lol. He was mean, vindictive, and criminal in many actions.

    While I'll admit, and have detailed before, that some good has come from some parts of Scn, that good can never compensate for the vast harm caused by his erroneous series of assumptions that led to his technology. I cannot begin to imagine how the harm he caused could be measured.





    3rd August 2012, 05:36 PM



    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    This suggests an excellent topic for a new thread: People at Whom Hubbard Didn't Yell.

    Seriously.

    Hubbard clearly had an over-sized and out of control temper, routinely targeting whomever and whatever was in his immediate vicinity for some new outrageous assault on human dignity.

    So the question you have raised is: who were the people at whom he never yelled and why didn't he? Was there a method to this aspect of his madness? Or, was this simply a matter of pure dumb luck on the part of a few individuals?


    Mark A. Baker
    I do not know of anyone who spent any signficant time with him, including his wife, children, David Mayo, top messengers, cooks, drivers, housekeepers, typists, groundskeepers etc. who didn't get yelled at by him. So the list would be very short.
    Sometimes a couple days would go by before you got yelled at though....



    4th August 2012, 01:06 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    In Hubbard's office at La Quinta, he had his room stocked with audio equipment. Equalizers and audio levelers and all sorts of gadgets and the best frequency response in the tweeters and woofers you could get.

    He'd put a tape of a train on, and listen to it, trying to pick up the lows and highs as it played. The only trouble was, as he got older, as do we all, our ability to pick up the sounds on certain frequencies decreased. In other words, he couldn't hear all levels. This led to trouble...

    This equipment was there to listen to music recordings which would accompany films, as well as to listen to the voice tracks for cassette or cine recordings.

    When an audio submission came in it would be played. Usually screaming ensued. "Noooooooh! The mid and highs are gone! What the hell are they doing!!! Sabotaging everything!!??"

    Now, with this sophisticated equipment you could measure and change frequencies, ie, add more highs, decrease base, whatever you wanted. And you could measure what you had.

    I can't tell you the number of audio people canned, mixers, techies, etc, for sabotaging projects. They'd usually not face the full RPF, they'd get canned, then brough back again because of their unique expertise in the area. Poor David Wilson, don't know what ever became of him, but that guy stuck to it through the thick and thin, trying to get Hubbard the product he wanted.

    Soon, we realized that we couldn't do a mix that was good. Instead, we had to make a mix that Hubbard would like, catering to his physical hearing drawbacks. Boost the highs and mids, get it so he could hear it.

    When the first cine movies came out, Hubbard ordered them to be marketed with cassette type holders, insisting that people in orgs were too stupid to know how to play tape. Now what was funny about that was that by going to the inferior quality film, we lost the frequency response he was aiming for. But, never underestimate people's stupidity! It had to be his way.

    The cassette tapes.... well, of course the reproduction machines had to be tinkered with to change their frequency response..... which was actually catering, as I said, to the old man's hearing.

    But see the cassette tapes too, and the reproduction equipment, didn't have the technical capability to reproduce what Hubbard wanted. Only he didn't realize that.... we couldn't tell him. He wouldn't listen. Maybe I'm not explaining it well. 20,000 cycles might be the highest frequency the best human could pick up. But the equipment couldn't reproduce and record frequencies anywhere near that. So any tinkering with the highs, or the lows, couldn't change anything on ultimate performance. No matter how hard you try, you can't put a gallon of milk in a quart container.

    Now some of the more expensive equipment and recordings could record better frequency responses, but that was on huge, expensive tape recorders that couldn't be transferred to commercial audio or visio recordings.

    Then there was the room of mics. Soft styrofoam on the wall, a dozen or so mics in exact positions as specified by Hubbard as being the best position to create the best sound. Pictures of the mic placements were taken, measurements made....

    But, whenever someone would come in to do a voice recording, there would inevitably be hell as Hubbard would scream about the mics being displaced, throwing off the sound quality. Of course I had the pics and measurements to compare, and, usually, the mics were in the same position they were supposed to be in.

    The music department of cine... Gawwd. We had pros in the field come in to dedicate themselves to making the scores for movies. These guys were abused horribly by Hubbard.... First, he'd scream at their arrangements, etc, then scream at the poor frequency responses (sometimes they used synthesizers which could deliver at whatever frequency response you wanted). I'd take Hubbard's screaming and yelling and invalidating and tone it down by 90% before passing it on to the music guys. If they'd ever known how badly he put down their work.... they'd have probably killed themselves.These guys were true artists with incredible abilities... until they started listening to Hubbard. Then they became cowed shadows of themselves....

    Point of this story, which I hope hasn't been too boring, is tons of man hours, expensive equipment, and good work was wasted, as Hubbard couldn't admit that he had human frailties, a body which aged and lost hearing. Instead of understanding this he canned audio guys left and right, destroyed my hearing (lol) from his screaming at the SPs out there trying to destroy his good results, and wasted talented music department guys, commercial audio mixers..... as we learned, Hubbard coulnd't be wrong...



    4th August 2012, 02:06 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    Cowboy - was he always that way? Or did the bad temper get worse as he grew older? Mims
    I can't say always, not directly, because I wasn't there. But the "old timers" that were around when I was in complained of the same behavior.





    4th August 2012, 02:08 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilla View Post
    That's a good example of Hubbard being useless in one of the fields where he thought he was an expert. A good sound/studio pro will usually have done four years at university, or a long time as an apprentice, with somebody who really knows exactly how to get the job done.

    In the real world, Hubbard would have been kept busy making coffee and looking over the shoulders of the pros while they got on with things.

    If he was lucky, that is.
    Agreed. And those were the qualifications of some of the pros.... until they joined and Hubbard instructed them in how to really do their jobs.





    5th August 2012, 01:37 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    omg!! I finally figured it out - when I accidentally hit the escape key it wipes out my post completely. God - that has been driving me nuts for days. Does anybody know how to undo the erasure?

    Anyway! Cowboy - I hope you are still with us after that epic derail I contributed to. I think few of us have had the "pleasure" of meeting the man, so these slices taken of his life are very illuminating as to what he was like and how people dealt with him. It seems to me that CMO was ostensibly in charge - since it seems apparent, he no longer wanted to be. Was this a conscious decision by the execs in CMO to filter what he was told, or they just fell into it as it was just survival with an unpredictable ruler on the loose?

    It reminds me of the Dev-t graphed policy with the unstable senior.

    Another question - some people tell stories of his "generosity" - was their any truth to it? Example: this guy I knew worked on some sort of TV ad and messed it up. Hubbard flipped out, and made him reshoot it at his own expense (I seem to recall a $10K figure in 70's money) and after he was done and it was approved, Ron thanked him, and repaid him what he had spent. Do you remember any stuff like that?

    Mimsey
    The CMO acted sort of like the LRH letter writing unit. We responded in his name and were tasked with dealing with difficult situations. Of course, not only did we answer in his name, but when we did send something in and it was a mess, he'd often take it out on the messenger.

    The messengers had zones of responsibility, for instance DM was in charge of Cine camera stuff at one point, and the messengers would often be there when a particular submission was presented, to answer questions on the submission, take any wrath, etc.

    CMO was not "ostensibly" in charge. It was in charge. Period. It was everything. Only a messenger could get you in to see the man, and that on the rarest of occassions. Mostly personal contacts occured on a walkabout, or when he worked Cine. Any visitors were usually something to do with Cine, going over a mix, a video, an edit, etc. Of course there were times that Hubbard would present to their area of work and frequently lambast them.

    We learned his health, which was strained, was important as well, and his vessel-bursting tyrades at exposure to bad news would leave him shaking with rage and red-faced.

    Yes, there was good to the man. I mentioned earlier in this thread that he paid for the SU messengers to all go to a Bee Gees concert.

    Have you ever noticed how a beaten dog still graves the pet of it's master? So, too, did messengers crave the rare word of praise, which was sufficient for them to weather the fowl-mouthed tyrades and demeaning comments that were far more frequent.

    I remember more than one occassion when several of us stood outside his room arguing over who had to go in and present bad news, knowing they might full well come out missing their head....


    5th August 2012, 02:19 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    In an earlier post I think he said it was SO, but I could be wrong. Anyway - thanks for the response Cowboy.

    Glen Malkin told me once he had some guys who pulled off some sort of coup for Scientology and all the thanks they wanted was dinner with the old man - no way Jose! They were really bummed that he wouldn't give them an hour of his time for all they did.

    Kinda selfish? Or did he no longer care what people thought of him?

    Mimsey
    Kings don't eat with commoners.





    5th August 2012, 02:37 PM

    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimsey Borogrove View Post
    Another question - Andrea Sabriskie told me she used to cook for the old man on the ship - she would toss in a little of this, a little of that (spices) and make a dish and it would be served to him - then he would demand the exact recipe so she could make it again the same way. of course she didn't recall exactly what she did so the next time she tried to make it, it came out different and he got pissed at her. It used to vex her a lot, she liked the freedom to tweak her cooking here and there and it would always piss him off when it didn't taste the same. Was he that way in other parts of his life?

    Mimsey
    Vexing would be an accurate word to describe many of Hubbard's eccentricities and peculiarities... and personality in general. There are, however, far harsher words which I could choose.



    5th August 2012, 03:33 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Quote Originally Posted by TG1 View Post
    Cowboy, it's hard for me to understand how anyone who was a CMO living so up close and personal with Hubbard could not see his bare nakedness with regard to spirituality, oateeness, sanity, not to mention simple self control.

    Therefore, it's easy to understand why you (and some of the others) left and didn't stay longer than you did.

    But since Kfag brought up DM ... surely after seeing all the crap that went down during the years you were around and then later -- during and following Hubbard's death -- DM couldn't have been a "believer" in the tech. (Please object, if you think this isn't accurate.)

    Therefore, assuming DM saw the tech as a failure, why do you think he worked so hard to gain complete control of the church and has since "worked tirelessly" to keep the church going so long? Do you think it's really just been about the money for DM?

    TG1
    Absolutely not, it is not only about money!


    It is about money and power. What else could he do that would get him unlimited supplies of both?

    Personally, I have absoutely no doubt that DM knows that the bulk of Scn is worthless. He knows the damage it causes.

    As I say, I have no doubt of the above.




    25th August 2012, 01:24 PM


    Re: trepidatious

    Someone I know well on this site called me the other day, voicing the belief if I might be an OSA guy, trying to say bad about Hubbard to make make people like me, or believe in me.... Gawd only knows what. All that is too deep for me. I'm a double triple covert undercover spy doing harm to the church to help the church. Hell, just wanted you all to know I've heard that rumor is out there.

    Jeez, it gets deep in here. Believe or not. Think I'm a fake, or not. I don't give a hoot.

    Anyway, a bit more.

    Gilman Hot Springs, as we first purchased it, had unlimited potential. WIth a golf course, hotel/apartment rooms, acres of land, seclusion... it was a dream. Now, of course, any of you who follow the latest, know that it has become a nightmare.

    Though Hubbard showed up at the house a couple times, he never spent more than a few hours there.

    A deep concrete sunken tank, if I recall it once held water, had the potential to be a great area to film. Of course there was the smell, and the bad ambience. We worked our tails off prepping it for Hubbard, cleaning and sealing to get rid of the smell, then covering the inside in blue egg-shell soft foam to get rid of echoes. Hubbard showed up a time or time, traveling in from his Hemet apartment complex. He wasn't particularly happy about the set up, and he'd sometimes stop at the house, before retreating back to his hideaway.

    The Hemet apartment complex was pretty stark. We had a handful of apartments. Let's see, Kima and Mike Douglas were there, Annie and Pat Broeker, the cook, the driver, a handful of messengers. David Mayo was there with his wife of the time. He'd arrived when we were at La Quinta and followed the entourage to GHS and then actually lived in one of the apartments. Of everyone I've ever seen interact with Hubbard, Mayo had the closest I'd ever seen to an even footing. Didn't mean it was smooth all the time. But, believe it or not, Mayo received a degree of grudging respect. Forget the fact that he was a good auditor, he was just pleasant as all get out to simply have a chat with.

    Mike Douglas, Kima's husband, he's dead now, he'd work special projects for the old man or Kima. You should have seen the old man's eyes light up when Mike showed up with a handful of diamonds which Hubbard had directed him to purchase. Boy, Hubbard was almost as excited as when he saw the bag so filled with Krugerands he could hardly lift it. Nothing like good old material goods to make a man salivate... get those old spiritual juices flowing.

    Claire Rousseau was there. Don't know what happened to her. She goes back to ship days and the old man had a pretty good relationship with her, sort of like with Annie Broeker.

    The old man lived in a little two bedroom apartment. One bedroom for his bed and such, and one with his easy chair and lamp, and of course no chair or anything for his lapdog messengers. We'd be on our knees. Sort of like days of royalty, couldn't let our heads get higher than his. So there was no such thing as a chair. Never an even footing. Sometimes you could stand while he sat, though.

    I used to worry the neighbors would complain when he had a bout of anger, which was about every other day.

    It was here I remember first seeing his skin cancer on his face, and really wondering how someone who could control the physical and non-physical universe could have skin cancer, get hellacious wrinkles and sagging jowels, and pretty much all the normal things an aging, formerly red-haired, pale skinned individual would suffer from.

    At the end of the day, usually somewhere around mid-night, he'd watch his movie. We'd get all manner of movies recorded, and I'd have to memorize them and have them waiting for him. I'd cue one up and sometimes he'd like it, and sometimes not.

    Now, I learned something the hard (loud) way. This was in the days of VCRs. We'd want to fast forward through the commercials, watching the counter to track when the commercials were over, and hopefully stopping it just as the sound track of the commercial faded away and the movie started up again. Only trouble was, all groups of commercials aren't the same. There could be two thirty second ones, or a minute and fifteen seconds.... ANyway, I could never communicate that too him and would consequently be berated for being so stupid I couldn't read the counter. Like most situations, there was no opportunity to explain. Can't tell you how many times I got yelled at.

    In the day time Hubbard would do some work. Pop down to the river and take some pics, wax educational to anyone who would listen.

    In all the years I knew Hubbard, never once did I see him interact signficantly with a non-Scientologist. And rarely with a non-SO member. Almost exclusively with messengers and the household staff.

    Let's see, there were the LRH meals, of which half were tossed, usually because of continuing attempts to poison and kill or make sick..., amazing how many assasins or SPs there were that became cooks.

    Now, to this day, I remember a long lecture about the way to cook a burger. I never knew it, but the old man made clear, you never salt and pepper the meat, you always put the spices in the frying pan before cooking... otherwise the flavor is trash.

    I didn't know that. Of course, there was a lot that I didn't know and Hubbard taught. Of course, I still don't agree with him.

    More to come, with time, my friends. I'm considering giving some reflections of someone many despised at that time, a guy who had little power, little presence, and little stature....
     
  12. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Re: Cowboy

    Cowboy is 110% "Real". I know that for a fact, Jack. Cowboy and I discussed openly on the Trepidatious Thread that we had PM'd and lifted our "Masks". I thought I had made very clear to all that I personally "vouched" for Cowboy's "Realness and Genuineness". Cowboy is one of the Folks that served time in Hisself's "Inner Circle" and is a straight shooter all the way. Cowboy's stuff is of great value, IMO...at least it was to me. Cowboy was on the Apollo. Cowboy was where Cowboy says Cowboy was. I, too, served time in Hisself's "Inner Circle" and I'm tellin' Y'all again...Cowboy's "Take" is unique, special and comes from a highly intelligent mind and decent deep heart.

    Face:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  13. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Thanks, U.

    I'm reading this and listening to Pearl Jam's "Sirens" for the very first time....pure magic all around!
     
  14. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    This collection of material may be relevant to your interests, Udarnik. (Biographical, Claims by and about Hubbard and Scientology, Friends, family and influences, Enemies, Places of Interest, Occult/Magic, Areas of research)

    Also, Hubbard's material on children, especially some of his case histories are undoubtedly straight off his own time track. Some other stuff from this collection might be helpful too.

    Has anyone posted Hubbard's childhood diaries? They'd contribute greatly to a psychobiographical profile.
     
  15. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes Arnie. Manipulator is a good Pointer. I was, early on in my study of scientology or more precisely subjecting myself to manipulation of LRH's writings and Audio tapes, frequently aware of the possible "psychopathic induction" that Lobaczewski refers to and he says is well known in the psychiatric field.

    And I would have to look at 'traumatic bonding' to see how it may relate to the TOOLKIT used by psychopaths in their activity of psychopathic induction.

    Having a truly freemind is definitely a critical and challenging endeavour. This thread and related articles is wonderfully educational.

     
  16. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    I want to read the entry he made after visiting Commander "Snake" Thompson
     
  17. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    A big thank you Udarnik for the "next installment" post. I had not read most of that until today.
     
  18. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Mojo Channeling Ron

    My first entry after meeting the Commander was the shortest entry in my admissions, up until then, which I later removed. Which was:

    "Masturbation works, but it's embarrassing (and helps people)".

    A little background: My wog father introduced me to the Commander (Joe) in 1927. He told me his wog father (my wog grandpa) introduced him to the Snake a few years back. We were still living in Helena at the time though our meeting took place on a ship off the coast of Philadelphia (the USS Grant). The Commander was in the Navy and he personally invited me to see his ship (and to see his private cannon later).

    I was only 11 years old in the wog world at the time though I had already saved countless galaxies from eternal destruction, a few weeks earlier.

    In any event, Joe liked me. And I liked Joe. He told me of his studies of Freud which intrigued me. I told him of my saving galaxies from eternal destruction, which intrigued him. And then we had sex. Lots and lots of sex. I remember my so called 'father' asking me why in the world I kept insisting on visiting Joe on the USS Grant, and spending the night, which was the very first time I recall asking my so called 'father', what are your crimes? And he blinked. And I didn't.

    In any event the Commander understood Freud better than anyone else I had ever known. Of course at 11 years old that's not a broad swatch of territory to cover. But I was nonetheless duly impressed. And Joe told me I had the most beautiful penis he had ever had the pleasure of, well, being in communication with.

    The reason I wrote about my fears of masturbation in my later entries is because Joe told me that masturbation, in solo form, was not a good thing. So he did it for me. He told me that if I got myself off, I would end up being lonely, but if I got everyone else off, I would have a world full of friends. So I quit jacking off on that very day, and started planning the introduction of Dianetics, to the world.

    mojo

    (channeling Ron, the God of spiritually jacking people off, for the mere price of surrendering their entire life to him, for the favor)

    ps: I honestly do feel a bit bad about temporarily derailing such a magnificent thread as this. Please forgive. My list of heros in this world has a new addition named COWBOY. So again, please do forgive this little HH type of interjection. I couldn't help myself. And a personal apology to Cowboy, if needed (though I hope it is not).
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  19. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Don't worry, this thread is a WIP and open to anything except defense of the tech or LRH. When I'm done, I'll strip out the juicy posts and put them in a new thread so NOOBs don't have to wade through all our banter to get to the LRH posts. I'm not a threadjacking Nazi on this thread, in fact I've done it to myself, twice. Sorry for the delay, will get back to things once my conference is done at the end of the month. I want to get a few more in before December, because my employer just informed me that I have to go to China in mid-December. Mind you, I'm already going to Taiwan for Christmas on my own. I'm gonna be one stressed-out dude for the new year. :omg:
     
  20. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    I would like to see them posted, if they even still exist. :unsure: All I can remember at this moment is something that went like ....the problem with China is it smells too much of "chinks'. .... And it sounds like words from mankind's greatest friend, always making kind, accepting remarks about all the 'primitive' cultures he 'studied' :no: