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Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by radar, Jan 11, 2008.

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  1. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    good to know that "proof" for past lives is on the level of 'what did you have for breakfast 10 years ago?"

    But I feel better.
  2. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    I know exactly what I had for breakfast. 10 or 20 years ago today; nuthin. I don't eat breakfast :)

  3. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well, there is such a thing as straight protoplasm line which contains "hard wiring".

    Hence instinct, etc.

    But in back of that is "theta" since theta is senior to and directs MEST.

    As far as past lives go, to me, the way Scn looks at it is more like-- one infinite lifetime with the occasional change of bodies.

    IE- we don't live more than once- we never died.
  4. ExScnDude

    ExScnDude Patron with Honors

    Actually, I'm in agreement with what Science of Survival had to say about past lives.

    I'm paraphrasing because I do not have any Scientology materials and haven't looked at the book in many years.

    Anyway, the idea I got from the book is that it doesn't really matter whether or not an auditor believes in past lives. The only thing that matters is that in auditing, going earlier-similar to whatever is there, results in a release for the PC.

    I have observed that exact phenomena many many times.

    So, a possible alternate explanation might be that because these past-life incidents are usually plucked out of the PC's mind in isolation. By that I mean, a PC doesn't suddenly remember every detail of the past life within which the incident takes place.

    Any maybe, because there is so little contextual information surrounding these incidents (unlike incidents occurring in the present lifetime), it is easier for the PC to see the aberative computations and postulates embedded therein.

    The bottom line for me is that the presence of past-life incidents in auditing does not conclusively prove anything - just like LRH said in S.O.S.
  5. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I think that it's quite possible that running an incident that happened in a "past life" can be very much like a kind of creative processing, where the PC is fully free to dub-in all his hopes and dreams, and all of his guilts and fears to fulfill his deepest emotional needs.

    The lack of context allows you to play out all your deepest fantasies in the auditing session in a way where you are your auditor agree that it is "real".

    When you "confess" that you have blown up whole planets full of people, and you know that all you have to do is tell everything to your auditor and it will all be released from you, then you hope that maybe the guilt and shame you feel in your present life will be lessened if you do.

    So you let your mind go wild in past life incidents, where no one will ever check, no one and nothing will ever evaluate or invalidate.

    The release comes because the pc has been told the release will come if you only go early enough.

    And that suggestion is what makes it work.
  6. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I've never looked at it that way Alanzo - yeah.... thanks. :)
  7. Pierrot

    Pierrot Patron with Honors

    Can you prove it? ;-)

    I seldom do. And now and then I'm fasting, water fast, no food at all, the longest and most wonderfull was about 28 days long.

    Years ago a friend of mine was visiting Paris for the first time with her son. At some point the boy said "I know this place, I was living in a flat just behind the corner" and he gave some details. The mother was surprised and checked the data talking with people in the local shops. Yes there was an old man living there who died some time before the boy was born.
  8. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Nice one Alanzo. :thumbsup:

    Even if we ignore your last point about release coming because the PC was told a release will come, the idea that past life running is a form of creative processing is extremely interesting.
  9. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    The concepts of Separateness and Oneness are just about as fundamental as you can get. Most of the discussions on ESMB are basically about these two polarities.

    The desires to be separate and to be one are possibly the basic charges on any case.

    So running the two questions I gave you will quite likely hurt, Tansy. When you are rested and feeling excited/brave about trying them, give them a go. Just recognise the feelings, just as they are when you ask each question, and you will see the "hurt" changing and will feel the two sides discharge against each other. Just accept each side as best as you can and then alternate to the other side and they will dissipate, change and release. :happydance:

    I wouldn't recommend it as a first step for people, normally, but as you originated the item, I figured you would be ready to run them. PM/phone me if you need help.
  10. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    The initial command from the Imaginary group of commands at Paul's Robot Auditor HeavyDuty module is:

    "OK. Focus on any possibly imaginary parts of your topic--telepathy, spirits, past lives, parallel universes, whatever--and put them above you."

    The purpose is to allow the unindoctrinated pc to discharge parts of his topic that he might have wondered about, but isn't sure. Like he doesn't really believe in past lives, but there's something just nibbling at the corner of his awareness, and with this command he can still run a creative processing command on it without admitting to himself that past lives definitely exist. If it discharges stuff from his topic great; and if it doesn't, no sweat, at least he checked it out.

    Running dubbed-in past life incidents doesn't release charge. Running alter-ised past-life incidents that still contact and release the charge is valuable, at least in terms of the charge released and not the significances brought to mind.

  11. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I don't know that it is true that running dubbed-in past life incidents won't release "charge". There are a whole lot of incidents that I ran in auditing that released "charge" but that I now think were fantasies.

    If you look at running past lives in the spirit it was presented in SOS that you mentioned earlier, you will see that it allows for the possibility that the incident is false, but that it still resolves the case.

    I now think this is a possibility.

    For me, there are still a few incidents I ran that seemed to be from my past lives that were so consistent with my own inner thoughts and feelings from this lifetime that I think they MUST have come from a past life. I also thought that, since they released "charge" that this was more evidence that they were real.

    And there are a few coincidences, too, that seem to "prove" they were from my past lives.

    Looking at this now, it doesn;t logically follow that just because

    1. An incident that is consistent with my inner thoughts and feelings
    2. An incident that releases "charge"
    3. An incident contains coincidences with my present lifetime situations and emotions

    Proves that the incident was real and from my past life.

    My "deep emotional needs expressed through fantasies" theory can explain those, as well.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  12. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Me too. But I think the "frozen" misemotions and protests that I contacted and discharged, along with the concurrent yawns and sighs and laughter and tears and belching etc. were real enough, even if the imaginative scenarios that went with them weren't.

  13. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    How do you define "real"?

  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    True to the original. If I protest something heavily for long enough, that protest becomes frozen, encycsted. If I later contact it, I re-experience it as protest. I don't re-experience it as grief. I don't think it is as subject to alteration as the "scene" that goes along with it and contributes to the entire incident or series of incidents.

  15. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    So, the protest is the mass and the scenary is the significance.

  16. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Your words, not mine. I don't see that it all divides up as neatly as that.

  17. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

  18. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    This is something I have been very interested in. When my now 19 year old son was about 3 years old and I was pushing him down the street on his pushchair (stroller), he saw an old man walking towards us using a wooden walking stick. He pointed at the man and in his baby voice he said, "I used to have one of those sticks before I died."
    The hairs in the back of my neck stood on end.

    Reincarnation was not something that was spoken about in our house. Plus the words he used, "before I died," were not something I, or anyone else I knew, had ever said before.
    Up to that point reincarnation to me was a good working theory, and I did kind of "believe" in it.

    Years later I did have some regression experiences and during my fling with scientology my auditing went whole track straight away. The events in my prior life with regard scientology did cause problems with my case file.

    But, I am not entirely convinced that when we experience the memories and lives of other incarnations we are dealing with something that only "us" as an individual entity has experienced. I think it is more in the lines of Jung's collective consciousness (not sure of the name of it).

    Imagine also that linear time is a figment of our imagination, this means that all lives happened/are happening/will happen at the same time. Following this train of thought, if something in our own present life experience creates a certain "vibration" that is also being experienced in another life experience, they will resonate with each other, just like two unrelated instruments resonate with the same musical note.

    So, for example. I once looked at a picture of the Greek coast and totally freaked out. I said I hated the place and then had a very visual recollection of being very dark, wearing black clothes and being in an large orange grove collecting oranges when a group of people, about 5, star walking toward me. The other workers move away in fear. They come to me and one of them reads a declaration that I am a witch and will suffer the consequences etc.. Next scene, I am at the edge of a cliff looking down at the sea, there are many people behind me and I am pushed off the cliff and fall to my death.

    This was a very powerful memory.

    Years later, a book by a Dr. Brian Weiss told of a regression by a woman who described a very similar experience in a previous life in Greece.

    Did we both pick up, resonated, on the same traumatic life or lives of women who were thrown off cliffs in Greece? Or did we in fact both live there in the past and had similar fates?

    It is a very good question.
  19. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Raises two issues:

    A. Charge run out from "dub-in" might conceivably be charge from REAL incidents which are "similar" or "associated" with the "dub-in" incident.

    B. Alternately, who actually "owns" the fantasies/charge that was run? :wink2:

    In either case the "charge" released may be real charge belonging to the pc. However, the incident actually run is not the pc's and hence not "real" to the pc.

    Such a "dub-in" incident may thus be similar in some sense to genuine incidents/charge of the pc and cause pc's actual case to reduce although leaving the pc with a sense of "unreality" about the incident.

    Whatever the cause, it doesn't matter. The purpose of auditing is to reduce charge in a pc NOT to establish the "ACTUAL TRUTH" of things for a pc.

    A pc is free to do that for himself.

    Mark A. Baker
  20. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Not to say it is either "true" or "false" but why would you consider that someone reporting a similar death would in some sense invalidate your own experience?

    Specifically with regard to greece, it was throughout much of antiquity a very violent place and women were OFTEN subject to horrible abuse, frequently by their relations.

    Mark A. Baker