ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Religion Black and White

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Queenmab321, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Do you really need to ask that?

    That is HYPNOSIS. The intentional and conscious instilling of beliefs below conscious awareness (in self or in others).

    Hubbard was a very good hypnotist. That is a known fact. Hubbard knew much about the subject. But there is more. Much more.

    I have read a great deal about magick, the occult, modern visualization techniques, etc. In these subjects, one learns methods to alter the contents of his or her OWN subconscious mind. These subjects also contain the notion that what one expects at the deepest level tends to happen in reality. Said another way, the reality one experiences mirrors ones deepest self - in terms of beliefs. Or in Hubbard terminology, postulates and considerations precede all mechanics.

    Hubbard never makes this point clear, but the postulates and considerations that affect you the most are the ones that you are unaware of. When you find yourself saying, "I know it is true", and fail to recognize that what you think with is a "belief", THEN it is below your awareness. At least the aspect of it as functioning as a belief is below your awareness.

    An important part of legitimate paths to enlightenment and self-awareness involve bringing many or all of these unconscious beliefs into conscious awareness. One becomes acutely aware of the fact that a great deal of what we each hold as true is of the nature of an IDEA. In a certain regard, what I consider to be legitimate paths to enlightenment involve breaking apart the content of ones mind. In various Buddhist and Hindu systems, the mind itself IS THE PROBLEM! One needs to learn to be able to get rid of it, or at least temporarily suspend its activities and influences (at will). Much meditation has to do with exactly that.

    These various occult and magickal methods all involve the student intentionally changing his or her own unconscious beliefs. The reason one does so is because, as the theory goes, when you change what you believe at a deep level then the universe itself reforms itself in terms of your own personal experiences. While the universe doesn't actually change, your experience of it very much changes as one changes his or her deeply held beliefs (postulates, considerations). In a very real sense this involves self-hypnosis. It is NOT a "bad thing".

    Let me make an analogy to Einstein's theory of relativity. In his model, the universe is what it is, but in terms of EXPERIENCE, for any specific observer, the experience of some aspect of the universe is always and only RELATIVE, based on the condition of the observer. In other words, what and how the observer sees the universe depends entirely on from where and HOW he is looking. In psychological terms, the condition of the observer is determined by ones set of deeply-held beliefs, agreements, considerations and postulates. There is a subjective component to Einstein's theory - that of the observer. While the objective universe never changes, ones subjective experience of it very much does. The moment any observer assumes a position, and a viewpoint, then what and how this observer experiences some aspect of reality is greatly limited and conditioned.

    So, how one experiences some aspect of the universe is determined and molded by ones own (personally created) set of beliefs. It is because of this relationship between 1) the state of the observer and 2) the experience of the observer that all magick, occult and New Age visualization methods exist at all. Just as in Einstein's theory, when the state of the observer changes, so changes what and how this observer experiences some aspect of the universe. Magicians understand that the power to change his or her reality resides entirely in his or herself. I tend to agree with this view. One IS responsible for ones own condition and sets of experiences. If you change what you hold to be true, you will also change how you see and experience the world around you. Hubbard knew about all of this sort of information. He NEVER explains it to you in basic terms that empower you. He used it AGAINST you!

    Hypnosis can be bad when it is done TO YOU without your consent or awareness. In fact, Hubbard manages to get followers to greatly modify their deeply-held beliefs and convictions about a great many things through the Scientology indoctrination system. Hubbard was very familiar with all this information about magick, the occult, visualization and the mind. So YES, he KNEW what he was doing. In Scientology, it was not an "accident" like in some other religions.

    I have studied both Scientology and a great many other related subjects, so it is easy for me to see where Hubbard got many of his ideas from - or how he altered them from the original. But he leaves much out in various regards. In the occult it is up to the practitioner to choose what new ideas and beliefs he wants to adopt through self-hypnotic techniques. In Scientology, you have no choice - you are given Hubbard's exact smorgasbord of ideas, beliefs, convictions and certainties.

    The basic ideas is that with these methods one is changing the content of ones subconscious mind - in terms of deeply-held convictions, beliefs, agreements and considerations. One can do so by using various methods of affirmation and visualization. In such cases one does so knowingly and intentionally, according to ones own purposes and plans. This involves hypnosis, but self-hypnosis. In Scientology the method of changing the deeply-held beliefs and convictions is spread over time and is done through the indoctrination system. But it is STILL "hypnosis". And, as ones beliefs change, one sees a different world. In fact, the Scientologist sees and experiences a very different world than most others! :yes:

    While there is some version of hypnosis in auditing, and I do not think it is at all "all bad", the really harmful hypnosis involves the indoctrination of the nutty belief system. The fanaticism of the KSW ideology is far more dangerous than the results of most auditing (at least up until OT III).
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  2. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    I in fact meant a slightly different question.

    Did Hubbard instill conscious beliefs in their followers but unconscious faith in these beliefs? That is they can express their beliefs in words, they are aware, but not aware that it is a belief, they think it is self- evident truth.
  3. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Of course. That is what I have been explaining.

    When a Scientologist says, with words, "I know that Scientology is Man's only answer", it is a BELIEF. They are CERTAIN of this. To them it IS a "self-evident truth". And yes, they are NOT aware that this is actually of the nature of an unverified and unprovable "belief". They are not aware at all that this statement has no proof in reality. In fact they will never LOOK at that possibility.

    The Scientologist is very conscious of the CONTENT of the belief, but he or she is NOT at all conscious of the fact that it is actually only a belief, and functions on the level of a belief. Held with faith.

    They have been tricked into believing while thinking that they are not believing!

    Granted, this is common with many other versions of fanatics and "true believers". The difference, to me, is that while it comes about naturally in many other realms, it was intentional in Scientology. Hubbard knew what he was doing.

    Example, take this statement from KSW:

    "So the ogre which might eat us up is not the government or the High Priests. It's our possible failure to retain and practice our technology."

    That is an assertion. How can that be proven? Sure, one can string together various other ideas (statements, claims) of Hubbard's and use a sort of logic to "prove" the above quote from KSW. But really, there is no way to prove that the statement is TRUE. In the end one must BELIEVE it . . . with FAITH. There is a great deal of this in Scientology.

    Realize that in Scientology NONE of what they accept as true of Hubbard's paradigm are called "beliefs". They call what they accept and adopt - knowledge or certainty. They have been carefully side-tracked from any recognition of their own ideas existing as beliefs. The word "belief" is rarely used by Hubbard - it is kept hidden and out of view for a reason.

    Hubbard tricks one into believing that he or she is using rationality, reason, the analytical mind, and careful study to arrive at an understanding of the contents of Scientology. That is true in some regards for aspects of some of it. For example, one can study the Admin Scale, use it, and make sense of certain things in life. Or, one can learn how to help a person alleviate a recent loss of a loved one through a Dianetic Assist. There ARE aspects within the larger subject that can be used and that can be dealt with on the level of study and application. One can read the issue on window washing, and apply it. One can attack critics with overwhelming lawsuits and some or many will give up and "sue for peace" (the aim of the attack). There are various things that do work and can get results.

    But, when Hubbard jumps from that to things like "Scientology is Man's only and last hope", "your future for all eternity depends on what you do NOW with Scientology", and "anyone critical of us must have overts and be an SP", well Hubbard has left the arena of reason and rationality and has firmly entered the domain of faith and belief. It takes a fairly sharp mind to disentangle all of this, because Hubbard mixed it all up for a reason.

    If the mouse knew that the bait was attached to a trap, it wouldn't go for the bait. The aim is to always keep the eye focused on the BAIT. Hubbard managed that very well.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  4. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    It has often occurred to me that religions may be thought of as elaborate chain letters. Most were not written intentionally but emerged instead from ancient cultures. A mere glance at human society reveals, however, that most of us are prone to believe in one or another of these letters and pass it along.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  5. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    "The power of the social element. Agreement between several men brings with it a feeling of reality. It brings with it also a sense of duty. Divergence, where this agreement is concerned, appears as a sin. Hence all returns to the fold are possible. The state of conformity is an imitation of grace."

    Simone Weil, "The Great Beast"
  6. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I think if you walk into a building with 3' tall letters out front spelling out the word "Church," from a legal standpoint you've been provided sufficient notice that you are not in a MacDonald's restaurant, and the services you receive will not be subject to the same restrictions that govern non-religious business transactions. This being said, the fixed payments required by COS for specific services was a major stumbling block for the government in granting status, as it should have been. "Fixed donations" sounds like an oxymoron to me. I don't believe a "church" operating as a commercial enterprise should be recognized as a non-profit, religious organization. But, I don't think COS' fee for services model, per se, renders the beliefs of its members rational.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  7. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    That's for sure! :yes:
  8. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    OK, we separated content of beliefs from the underlying faith. Now we are separating rational beliefs from irrational. All good, thanks Gadfly and Queenmab.

    Hypnosis is such a thought stopping word. As if it explains anything.

    I give you an example. My cat is getting acupuncture and she loves it. The needles are sticking out of her paws and around the eyes. Now you try to come up to a cat with a needle and stick it into its face and see what happens.

    The same with hypnosis. As if it is common or natural to come up to the person and switch his whole belief system to something else. Most people who replaced their belief system with Hubbard’s never met Hubbard. Who hypnotized them? Did he used ‘distance hypnosis’ through TRs, Objectives, clay demos etc? Like, I tell you what to do and you hypnotize yourself?
  9. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

    Do you have a copy of Self Analysis? There is a bit at the beginning that says somthing like you are not really auditing yourself but the author of the book , hubbard is doing it.....or something. I could have it completely around the wrong way, but in light of your question im very curious about what it says. Anybody got a copy?
  10. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I thought the thingie was that Hubbard was auditing the person, not that the person was auditing Hubbard. Because Hubbard wrote the stuff, is leading the person every step of the way.

    In any event, I have never quite bought the argument that auditing and TRs are hypnotic or trancelike. I'll clarify, though- I'm not saying it cannot happen- I'm saying that a properly done auditing session or properly done TRs are not hypnotic and that the only time those things are hypnotic is when the person is not truly following the procedures.

    That being said, I am no longer creeped out by trances, hypnosis, etc. I got a lot of indoctrination in CofS about how bad that all is. Took a while to change my mind about that.
  11. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    OK, first, to me, hypnosis and altered states of consciousness exist all of the time. I don't imbue it with any great and special significance.

    Obviously, in normal stage hypnosis, nobody is having their entire belief system change in an instant. In therapeutic hypnosis, visualization and affirmations, one usually selects one or only a few KEY areas to attempt to change. And he or she works on it, building the new subconscious content over time with repetition.

    With something like an entire belief system, it doesn't happen by somebody standing their waving a pocket watch back and forth while saying, "you are getting sleepy".

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    As I said earlier, what changes the belief system of any person is the Scientology indoctrination system. It is designed to, and it very well does take "raw meat" and turns them into a blinkless party-line cheering Scio-zombie. Personally, I don't have the view that TRs, Objectives or really any auditing has any hypnotic effect - not in regards to changing beliefs. I know some really believe that, but it was never my experience. Sure, as with any form of visualization or concentrated use of the imagination, one does enter slightly altered states of consciousness. But, whenever I was blown out, I was FULLY IN PT, and NOT in some "altered state of consciousness". Granted, I have the view that such as state is preferable, and that one is better off being dissociated from ones own mind (my Buddhist and Vedic tendencies). I do understand that some or many people consider "being fully in PT" as an "altered state of consciousness" (since it is largely uncommon for most people). Most people are continuously lost in their own inner worlds of incessant thoughts, fantasies, playing out dramas and arguments in their heads, talking to self mentally, etc.

    For me, I never found that any amount of auditing made me susceptible to accepting and believing nonsense. Granted, there was a period where it was hard to make sense how something that could make me feel so good could also be so amazingly and consistently nuts. I finally came to terms with that.

    As I see it, the kernel of the rigid change occurs to the degree one accepts KSW. I knew many people in the Sea Org who were very low on the Bridge, with very little auditing, yet who were gung-ho fanatical imbeciles. One needs to examine things like study tech, Chinese schooling, repetition (read KSW at the start of every course), peer pressure, and how all of these work together to create the "true believer". One needs to examine all the little details, like KRs, theory of SPs, PTS to the middle class, the view that wogs are unaware, the view that Scientologists are superior and that Sea Org members are THE ELITE. All the little details work together to create a NEW SET OF FIXED IDEAS.

    Just as one becomes fixated in hypnosis to some idea, in Scientology, one becomes fixated upon an entire paradigm. This shifting to a new set of beliefs is similar to hypnosis. It is an interesting technique of what might be called a form of hypnosis (stretched out over a longer period of time). As a note, auditing does get rid of some considerations and beliefs, but the Scientology indoctrination system is right there ready and willing to replace them with NEW beliefs.

    Hubbard talks about "confusion and the stable datum". Involvement with Scientology replaces a person's stable data with the Scientology belief system. It becomes the FIXED STABLE ROCK that all else rests upon. Any person with a rigid and strict set of beliefs interprets reality THROUGH his or her set of beliefs. This is very much true with Scientology and Scientologists. The Scientology belief system involves an incredible array of FIXED IDEAS. These act as the stable data that the rest of the Scientology believer's universe revolves around.

    Hubbard doesn't have to be there. He created a self-perpetuating system that can be replicated over and over. That is why he made it mandatory that it could NEVER be changed or altered. He finalized and perfected enough of the system for taking a raw person and turning them into a mindless RonBot. Hubbard left all the policies, orders, and directives, and as long as they are followed exactly, the machinery keeps creating new Scio-dummies.

    People often REALLY change as a result of involvement with Scientology. I suggest you read the essay linked in my signature line. It explains the basic ideas that the entire change in view depends upon. This belief system is adopted mainly through repetition, pressure, unreasonable determination, and hard sell conformity. And, of course, standing and clapping in unison day after day, week after week, month after month, and even year after year, and at every event for 10-15 minutes at a time, to a large picture of Hubbard doesn't hurt the hypnotic process at all.

    Most public and staff MUST do the KSW Course. It has been that way for many years now. There are sections where one must learn and drill, over and over, the 10 points of KSW, until one can do it from memory verbatim. When I was doing A-E (from when I was declared the first time) back in around 2000, I remember sitting in a chair, and per the drill, facing the wall and repeatedly saying out loud each point of KSW. I did that over and over, for a long time, until I could do it forward (and maybe backwards too). That sort of repetition is also similar to hypnosis, where one is basically affirming the same words and ideas over and over. As a result, they DO sink in. They sneak right on by ones conscious awareness.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  12. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Yep and old tubs hubbard even had a policy letter on that ... 'outflow equals inflow' ... the reality is that the numbers game does work, as all sales organisations know.

    I'm loving your new siggy line (below) BTW, it kinda says it all.


  13. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    My copy is in the bin.

    So, distance auditing? Like distance healing? Hubbard the distance acupuncturist.
  14. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    From Gadfly

    :omg: :omg: :omg:

    If you need irrational crazy drills to instill beliefs, does it mean beliefs are also crazy and irrational?
  15. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Again, what do you think?

    Just because a method to instil beliefs is nutty does not necessarily mean that the beliefs themselves are nutty. One need and should examine the ideas and beliefs separately from the crazy methods used to indoctrinate the ideas.

    Please repeat these lines over and over until you REALLY HAVE THEM DOWN COLD:

    One: Having the correct technology.
    Two: Knowing the technology.
    Three: Knowing it is correct.
    Four: Teaching correctly the correct technology.
    Five: Applying the technology.
    Six: Seeing that the technology is correctly applied.
    Seven: Hammering out of existence incorrect technology.
    Eight: Knocking out incorrect applications.
    Nine: Closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology.
    Ten: Closing the door on incorrect application.

    Or, just examine them in terms of Scientology. Are they nutty or not? KSW is Scientology's most "sacred scripture". It contains the basic beliefs that support the whole lunacy.

    Fanatical Extreme Ideas:

    Only we HAVE the correct technology able to help and free Man (nobody else has it).

    Each of us, as Scientologists, can interact with this fact in only one way - KNOW THAT IT IS CORRECT. We KNOW that only WE are "right". Nobody else has this technology.

    Points 7-10 exist because, as Hubbard explains in KSW, the futures of every man, woman and child depend on Scientology being properly understood and applied all across the planet! As he also explains in the same policy, it is a deadly serious activity, and "if we don't make it this time we may never again have another chance".

    Just open your eyes and look Alle G. There is no essential link between some nutty indoctrination methodology and some nutty ideas and beliefs. But, in the case of Scientology, they are BOTH quite nutty! And, in fact, since both were created by Hubbard, they actually work in tandem with each other.

    Examine them each on their own. But also, examine the relationship between the two.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I agree and disagree.

    I agree it is the indoctrination system and KSW that nails in shut once one has some wins.

    But, auditing changing a person's belief system, yes it does. And I believe it dovetails, that is reading hubbard and getting auditing. Nobody can get auditing in the beginning unless they are indoctrinated into ARC, O/W's, PTP's, the rudiments (so that is indoctrination).

    Here is a success story, and there are many similars:

    So this person with that success story, it is all based on being indoctrinated into thinking with hubbard's words and ideas and beliefs.

    Personally, when I did ARC SW, Grade 0, and the new long Objections co-audit,

    many of my wins where what hubbard said in his lectures and books, and I just parroted them, like "oh, I see what LRH is saying, hey , a win, I'm happy. "

    It's kind of hard to explain.

    It's like you know doing all those repetitive process's on the ARC SW & Grade 0, why after a few several questions, why I had no more memory answer nor could I remember more to answer the question after let's say some 7 times. So I would comm lag. I never made up answers nor imagined answers, but would comm lag big time. I mean after I answered the question to best of my ability, that was it, and I was happy you might say, but the auditor keep asking the question, and I would say don't know. But I had to answer the question.

    Somehow I got thru all this stuff and overall felt like I gained, but not really based on the actual EP one is supposed to get.

    You know what I mean. And I think indoctrinated and hypnosis can be interchangeable in scientology.
  17. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I don't know. I'm not so sure it isn't possible. I can see Hubbard coming up with the idea of writing a book that teaches people how to hypnotize one another, then taking out all references to hypnotism so those who read the book and follow the instructions won't realize what's actually going on. These instructions, in addition to hypnotizing, would also implant Hubbard's dogma. Whether or not it actually works, it's an ingenuis idea.

    There's also irony in the fact that Hubbard would have known he was engaging in the very activity he attributes to his ancient, evil psyches, i.e., implanting false information in people's minds in order to subjagate and control them. In fact, it occurs to me that Hubbard himself employed most of the treacherous methods he attributed to his enemies, real and imagined.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  18. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Well, as you know, that is not true, and I know it is not true having written countless letters to CF. The inflow does not equal the outflow.

    But, that's not the purpose of the statement by hubbard. the actual purpose is you might say:

    1. To keep staff busy
    2. To let dis satisfied customers know that we the COS are still here so we must be real and correct and true.
    3. We, the COS, are still, in business.
  19. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    This is called narcissistic projection – accusing others of what the narcissist is doing.

    Hubbard knew he is implanting people in order to control them, so he invented Xenu who implanted people for 36 days (or whatever) in order to control them.

    I wonder if Hubbard’s distant goals were to “solve overpopulation” too.
  20. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

    I think you were asking if hypnotism requires physical presence of the hynotizer.
    If hubbard considered he could audit without phydical presence he may have considered
    it possible to hypnotise that way too. There are non scio hypnotising books and tapes
    on the market. With tapes it is the operator who does the hypnotising. No physical presence,
    although audio might be considered so. Can hypnosis be done in wrting? Why not?
    What occurs during some types of reading would be trance states AFAIK, and suspension
    of disbelief is sonething everyone is well aware of. Reading for pleasure and escapism
    is not that different from hypnosis. Scarying the shit out of someone with a good thriller
    or horror is done in writing, how? Leading a person to willingly create the scene and to invest
    themselves in it enough to where it starts affecting their emotions and behaviour (Just check that the
    doors are locked and the curtains drawn). Books like The Secret give people positive suggestions
    about how they are the engineers of their own destiny, with plausible (to those audiences) explnations
    of how it all works. Its wonderful. All lifes problems will be solved. Who wouldnt go into a trance with that
    rubbed all over them. The plausible explanation is what makes it feel its not trance like. Example, dmsmh.
    The memory, all pictures, stored up like computer files and a held down seven will disrupt rational bevaviour.
    That is generally how memory was thought if at the time it was written and still so by many. It is a metphor though
    and i believe that metaphors can easily take one from wide a wake analytical to enjoyable right brain where things are accepted for some poetic pleasure they give. Some sortcof endorphin thing. Just tell
    the listeners it also salvation and take them to the div 6 reg before they leave.

    I am starting to ramble a own endorphins are busy.......