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Religion Black and White

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Queenmab321, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Hubbard wrote and spoke of the "enemy" using "fronts" and "front groups."

    The Scientology operation has, literally, hundreds of fronts and front groups, and is dedicated to masking the identity of those fronts and convincing others that they are not fronts at all.

    The number one front utilized by the Scientology operation is the "Church of Scientology."

    Below is an old re-post:

    From day one, Hubbard used "enemy tactics" and "aberrative" behavior patterns on unsuspecting Scientologists, yet Scientologists knew that he'd never do such a thing to them, since, after all, he'd described it to them in a lecture, etc., as being something that the bad guys would do, and he was the ultimate good guy.

    In his confidential writings, Hubbard taught that Scientology's enemies should be subjected to "enemy tactics," and to the various mechanisms of the mind (and "reactive mind"), and Hubbard, in writings and lectures, would sometimes describe these and, on a few occasions, even warn the Scientologists that some evil force (not him of course, but the communists, Nazis, psychiatrists, the "12 bankers," etc.) could use Scientology to enslave - such is "the power the tech," etc.

    Scientologists are fond of quoting these warnings. This, while remaining subject to the manipulative ideas and methods woven into Scientology by its founder.

    L. Ron Hubbard described himself as "Mankind's Greatest Friend," etc., so his writings and comments about "aberrative mechanisms" and "enemy tactics" never came across as a warning about himself. If anything, it made others more inclined to trust him.

    For example, in Dianetics, what's "aberrative"? Something that equates to "survival." The "held down 7s" are "aberrative" because they're identified with the person's survival. "Survival," as a "mechanism" becomes "aberrative."

    Even in 1950, Dianetics was presented as being a "race with the atomic bomb." The message was plain enough: Dianetics = Survival. No Dianetics = Doom.

    And this continued into Scientology. One of many examples: In 1956, Hubbard wrote, "With Man now equipped with weapons sufficient to destroy all Mankind and Earth... The primary race on Earth is... the one being run between Scientology and the atomic bomb."

    How many Scientologists read Hubbard's descriptions of Dianetics and Scientology as essential for Mankind's "Survival!" - and their own "Survival" - and thought, "Oh, Ron's using the 'Survival mechanism' to manipulate me" ?

    Another example from 1950 Dianetics is the "ally computation." Someone comes out of the blue and helps another person, helps the other person in some way or other. The "help" could be indifferently offered, or insincerely offered, but if the needy person regards it as aiding in his "Survival!" (or well being, or the alleviation of pain or the attainment of pleasure or relief), then (so the theory goes) the "ally" mechanism is in place and in effect. For example, an uncle, who may not be a particularly nice fellow, gets his little nephew a glass of water when that nephew is sick in bed and thirsty. The uncle (in the mind of the little nephew) becomes an "ally," and the uncle become identified with "Survival!"

    Now, who would have thought that "Mankind's Greatest Friend," on whom the "Survival!" of Mankind, and the "Survival!" of each person (Scientologists, through Ron's "Bridge") depended, would use the "ally computation" and the "Survival mechanism" in order to deceive, manipulate, and exploit? Nah, that could never happen.

    However, it did happen, and not only years later, but sometimes the same day, or previous to Hubbard mentioning a deceptive, manipulative or destructive mechanism or tactic.

    But it was disguised, and so wasn't recognized. Hubbard's words about the race between Dianetics or/and Scientology and the atomic bomb were regarded by Scientologists as warnings by their, and Mankind's, greatest "ally," L. Ron Hubbard.

    Who amongst Scientologists suspected?

    Yet, Hubbard's words about "the race between Scientology and the atomic bomb" - from 1956 - occurred less than a year after Hubbard had published, and distributed, his fake "Russian Psychopolitics textbook" (which of course denounced Dianetics), a "textbook" that - amongst a few references to psychiatrists practicing lurid sex with their (unconscious) patients, "Pain-Drug-Hypnosis," shock treatment, lobotomies, etc. - was a compendium of "enemy ('Russian Communist') ideas and methods" for "asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties" through more practical non-medical means.

    From Hubbard's "Russian Textbook":

    "The failure of Psychopolitics might well bring about the atomic bombing of the Motherland. The psychopolitical operative must succeed for his success means world peace... The end thoroughly justifies the means."

    Even "Survival!" - used to manipulate - was mentioned in the fake "Russian Textbook":

    "It is pointed out in many early Russian writings that this is a survival mechanism. It [the "Survival!" mechanism] has already been well and thoroughly used in the survival of Communism."

    Hubbard's 1955 "Russian Textbook" was loaded with manipulative and exploitative ideas and practices, many of which were being used on Scientologists themselves - used on them by their "Greatest Friend" and ally, L. Ron Hubbard - ideas and practices which were incorporated, by Hubbard, into Scientology doctrine and practice.

    Yet, who suspected? Yet, it was right there. And because it was right there it was unthinkable.

    Yes, it was in plain sight and hidden at the same time.

    In 1955, L. Ron Hubbard secretly authored the below booklet to be used as a black propaganda vehicle for attacking his critics, by identifying them with Russian Communism. Some years later, the booklet slowly faded into obscurity. It was no longer useful as a propaganda vehicle. During the period of the Vietnam war, Hubbard had decided that "Nazi," not "Communist," was a more effective "button" to push, to influence public opinion to Scientology's advantage. Another reason for this booklet fading into obscurity was that Hubbard was now using many of its ideas and methods on his own followers, and on others. Hubbard had been doing this for many years prior, but it was now intensified. These ideas and methods are interwoven into Scientology doctrine, and integral to that doctrine.

    "What we are seeing is a worldwide pattern of abuse and criminality... On the body of evidence, this is not happening by accident; it is happening by design.

    "Scientology is not a religious organisation. It is a criminal organisation that hides behind its so-called religious beliefs."

    Senator Nick Xenophon


    Now, back to the promotion of Hubbard's religion angle, and convincing others that the Scientology operation's number one front group, "the Church of Scientology," is not a front group at all.

    Here we see a "Scientology minister," complete with clerical collar, as he towers above religious leaders from ages past. :)

  2. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    Is it Mike Rinder?
  3. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    There's a whole church of them about 3 miles from my house, and I live in New England. The Creation Museum in Ohio is a monument ot the movement.

    The greatest concentration is in the Deep South (the source of most American religious dipshittery), of course, but the Midwest also has its share. You can't live anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon and make that comment.
  4. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I think 'outflow equals inflow' does work as part of a marketing plan (though certainly not equal as in an identical return). Sales organisations that use it as a tactic work on a % of 'inflow' back which though very low (less than 1%) is still well worth the cost of the 'outflow' ... the chain letter thing that Queenie mentioned probably has/had similar returns and the various 'Nigerian Prince' [STRIKE]schemes[/STRIKE] scams would too.

    You're right though, the fact that scientology is supposed to be a 'religion' yet blatantly markets itself like K-mart was (sorta) my point too.

  5. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    It was very different for me. I walked in after reading the Dianetics book, and simply wanted to go Clear. I immediately paid for 250 hours of auditing, and began the TRs & Objectives Course (to save some money). I had ZERO familiarity with the subject. Well before knowing anything about KSW, and having very little association with the various concepts, I went exterior on TR0. I didn't really have any Scientology framework to interpret and understand the experience from, so I tended to explain it in terms of other earlier practices (meditation, studies in eastern philosophy). Sure, they showed me the sections in the Tech Dictionary on exterior, big win, and so forth. And I quickly, soon after, bought all of the books and read through them ALL at lightning speed.

    Yes, there is indoctrination into concepts and terms regarding the first dynamic aspect of it all (auditing). But, I do not see that much of that is what disables ones critical thinking. For example, I can talk on and on about the negative aspects of Scientology, but I can easily talk about positive aspects of auditing even using many of the terms. As I currently view it, the first dynamic stuff is largely the BAIT. It does get results, although the results vaty widely from person to person.

    Big fishes bite if you gots good bait . . . . (Taj Mahal)

    I separate things out in terms of the raw experience of feeling good, whatever you want to call it - exterior, keyed-out, blown out, or a state of some degree of mental and emotional dissociation. It is all of the stuff TACKED ONTO these experiences that causes the mind control. For example, the mandatory "success story". Did you know that it is a CRIME to "false attest", and one can be assigned TREASON for doing so? That is an interesting part of the whole trap. You blow out or feel really good, you really don't know why, yet you are sent to the examiner where you MUST "attest" to some state, or ability, or win. The win or state is immediately tied up with all of this OTHER CRAP.

    Then the staff parade you around. You have to tell your win to the Academy. This of course reinforces it even more, because you are now sharing this with others. And, you must acknowledge and tell others that you WANT THEM to also experience the SAME WINS as you! This isn't optional - it is mandatory, and it is all controlled with very exact organizational patter and flow lines. This is all built in by Hubbard.

    Sure, without the wonderful experience, there would be nothing to tack on all of the crap to. But, as I mentioned earlier, I knew many staff who were very LOW on the Bridge. They NEVER had the "wins" or "gains", yet through indoctrination of KSW alone they became total overly-dedicated RonBots. It is so weird to see largely untrained and unaudited staff telling others that "Scientology can handle that", "Scientology is changing the world", or that "Ron taped the path to Total Freedom". They have simply bought into the ideology, with lots of help of positive reinforcement from those around them. There is also the aspect of negative reinforcement that exists through the threats of SP declares, assignment of lower conditions, Qual correction and ethics.

    I am one of those who has the view that one could take most of the auditing below OT and deliver it in a way that many people would enjoy. Without the organizational nonsense, without crazy ethics and justice, without the demented goal to "clear the planet", without gaudy events, without hard sell, and without endless deceptive ARC and PR. Granted a great deal of surgery would be required to separate the endless crap from what could possibly be of benefit. Also, I would remove the "religious" angle. I would treat it just as how I viewed it when I walked in - as a set of "mental therapies".

    Yes, one gets indoctrinated into various ideas such as, "flatten the chain", or "end the process when the PC is VGIs". But, those are based on a little bit of observation and experience. No sensible therapist would change the method or end it when the client was doing well and benefiting from it. That is almost common sense.

    But when one gets indoctrinated with "we are the last free men and women in this sector", and we each "will end up as a cinder if we fail", well THOSE ideas involve a whole different variety of indoctrination.

    I will try to explain it a different way. Whenever I blew out, and I did so very intensely, I would want to leave, go for a walk, go out and absorb life. I had NO INTEREST in being there in the Org, being part of some gung-ho group, or "working flat-out to win the Birthday Game". See?

    It is all of this OTHER tacked on crap that muddies the mind. Most of this involves the third dynamic and its goals.

    Just feeling exceptionally well doesn't disable critical thinking. What disables critical thinking is the acceptance of some strict ideology, adopting it as a stable datum, and accepting the various fixed ideas through which the adherent then views, interprets and understands the entire world.

    It has been mentioned in many books on cults and true believers how such a person cannot view anything outside of his tight little box of beliefs. In fact, he stays far away from ANY idea that might counter or disrupt his sense of total certainty. These people need to feel that they KNOW - that they are RIGHT, and that everyone else is wrong. Scientology nurtures THAT feeling to a marked degree.

    Feeling good from auditing does not involve any real belief. It is the indoctrination in the ideology of the group that contains most of the toxic nonsense. I should mention that mind control, ideologies and true believers always involve a strict and tightly run GROUP. It is all about the group. And, just as with Scientology, the individual is NOTHING compared to the senior goals and purposes of the nutty group.

    One comes into Scientology and gets some first dynamic wins, and very soon after gets roped into all the manipulations and machinations of the third dynamic. In fact, part of the organizational setup is to leave the newbies alone, until they have enough sufficient wins to THEN lay the heavier stuff on them. It is a well-planned gradient process of indoctrination into the MISSION of Scientology to Salvage This Sector. THAT is what causes people to devote all of their time, donate absurd amounts of money, disconnect from loved ones, etc. The nuttiness is mainly wrapped up in the aspects of the third dynamic.
  6. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    It seems to me the issues discussed in this thread fall into three basic categories:

    1. What are the defining characteristics of religious belief and practice and are the beliefs and activities that obtain within Scientology essentially religious in nature?

    2. Although we all appear to agree that Scientology does not deserve the special legal protections afforded to other religious organizations in the U.S., we have different reasons for drawing this conclusion. Is it because Hubbard's motives were both cynical and treacherous (Again, I think we all agree that they were), and, therefore, as a calculated scheme to victimize participants, Scientology isn't religion at all but something else altogether? Or, should religious status be denied because COS, irrespective of whether or not it actually is a religion, engages in practices that disqualify it for status under the law, i.e., those who run it don't hold sincere beliefs, the practice of aggressively charging for services, the diversion of wealth to top officials (DM) within the organization, etc.,?

    3. Lastly, we're discussing the duplicitous and manipulative tactics that Hubbard built into the institution. Once again, I think we all acknowledge the existence of these tactics, but we may have differing views about how they function, which tactics are most effective and the degree to which scientology members are passive victims of psychological manipulation.
  7. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

    See video linked below....cannot embed.

    Here is real spirituality.
    Do the believers have real faith or is it not real faith?
    Is it truly miraculous, since it is believed to be miraculous.?
    Is it truly spiritual?
    If by some really strange cirumstances it was animal or chicken blood, is it nonetheless
    human blood if the believers consider it so?
    If such a patient is being spiritually treated for cancer, but dies after the miraculous
    surgery without scalpels, is the patient really dead?
    Now think carefully about this. Remember these psychic surgeons
    have not left a mile wide trail of evidence that they are merely cloaking what they do in spiritual/psychic bs to help their business, as did hubbard, so they have a lot more credibilty

    (Earnest tones): is it really faith? Is it really psychic? Is it really a bit of human matter?

    Our religious eternity depends on what you do here and now with these questions. And from Ru Paul: Dont fuck it up!!!
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Uh huh.

    Dude, you're leading people around a mulberry bush. I guess for your own amusement.

    Here are the words of a forthright and honest individual, for whom this matter is not an intellectual exercise or an odd form of entertainment, but a serious issue involving the lives of other human beings.

    Excepts from a legal Declaration of Denise Brennan of May 2008:


    7. Based on years of work in the senior most legal bodies of organized scientology as covered above I have dealt with directly or supervised the handling of hundreds of legal matters involving the organizations of scientology which directly or indirectly had to do with using religious cloaking...

    8. It was determined that the only way to handle many of the legal matters in front of us and still apply Hubbard’s policies that had to do with staff, ethics, sales of services, money, delivery of services and the like was to develop and use a religious cloaking saying scientology was a religion, its services religious, its staff members of religious orders and the like. I can state without doubt that the overwhelming main reason that organized scientology developed and pushed its religious cloaking was to avoid a myriad of real or potential legal problems that would exist by following Hubbard’s policies if it were not considered a religion. By developing this religious cloaking for organized scientology it was hoped to avoid legal requirements around the world that might otherwise have to be followed that would make it impossible to follow Hubbard’s policies. In developing the religious cloaking for organized scientology, the following were considered a few of the “benefits” so that Hubbard policies could be applied. There are countless examples but the below are listed simply as a few of them:

    (i) minimum wages would not have to be paid;

    (ii) staff could be sent to different parts of the world and be able to stay locally as religious workers;

    (iii) standard employee rights, such as those found in laws like the Fair Labor Standards Act, could be discarded and thus Hubbard policies involving such things as ethics conditions, the Rehabilitation Project Force and the like could be applied without outside interference;

    (iv) less scrutiny would be allowed on the controls of the funds of scientology and the intermingling of funds between the corporations and other legal fictions of organized scientology;

    (v) it was hoped that the treatment of public scientologists and the use of their funds would be considered outside the purview of governmental bodies;

    (vi) couching the demand for and flow of monies within organized scientology using “religious” terms (such as by saying that clear cut mandatory payments for services were “fixed donations” and were mandated by the scripture of “exchange”) was hoped to cut off attempts by governments and others to look into them further;

    (vii) what was considered one of the most important reasons for the religious cloaking was so that the services of dianetics and scientology could be delivered without it being considered the practice of psychology and/or medicine. It was feared that unless there was a religious cloaking developed and used throughout organized scientology that its practices would be outlawed in many parts the world.

    9. In order to perpetuate what amounts to a worldwide fraud through the religious cloaking many things were done by the Guardians Office before Miscavige was involved and later under Miscavige after he ran the functions once handled by the Guardian’s Office. Again, these things were done so that Hubbard policies otherwise inconsistent with the laws of the lands could be applied...

    11. Two of the things that organized scientology felt were of the most importance in order to avoid compliance with many laws that were contrary to Hubbard policy were the religious cloaking as covered above and a corporate restructuring to make it very difficult if not impossible for outsiders to ever get to the main assets of organized scientology and to ensure that the real leaders of organized scientology could be insulated from legal liability by hiding their real controls behind a myriad of corporate and other legal veils. It was considered both a defensive and offensive strategy to have such cloaking (religious and corporate) in place.

    Defensively it makes it very difficult for individuals or even governments to force legal compliance of the many types of laws as covered above. It also makes it almost impossible to hold those that really control organized scientology responsible legally or to get to the financial assets of organized scientology spread out around the world. Offensively, it gives organized scientology a “safe base” from which to attack critics and/or anyone it feels is its enemy. Hiding behind religious cloaking and corporate veils it can act as a victim when people point out its crimes and injustices calling them “religious bigots” and even scaring governments, many of whom are not supposed to get involved with “religious matters”. By calling policies by Hubbard or Miscavige that are otherwise abusive or contrary to law “religious scripture” it was hoped to avoid legal scrutiny of same.

    12. Once religious cloaking was begun in earnest and many self serving documents were made and images created to reflect a religious image, it was considered vital to get “experts” to support the concept that organized scientology was in fact an organized religion., it’s policies “religious scripture”, etc. The entire intention behind the acquisition and use of such religious and legal scholars was to create and develop “evidence” to support the religious cloaking that could be used in courts and elsewhere where needed. While organized scientology today parades out various scholars that say they are “religious”, I can tell you that this scholar program was started in the Guardian’s Office and I worked on it as early as 1974. I worked on the obtainment of such scholars opinions personally and by supervising others to do same and I used such scholars opinions to obtain recognitions that organized scientology would not otherwise have obtained.

    13. At no point where any scholars briefed on either the real controls of organized scientology or the reasons why religious cloaking was developed. Instead they tended to be briefed using the religious cloaking materials developed and/or by speaking with pre qualified, briefed scientologists who were told what to tell the scholars. If scholars wrote less than glowing reports of scientology being religious in nature, their opinions were discarded. For those who would write glowing reports supporting scientology’s “religious nature”, those reports were kept for further use in legal and/or PR matters...

    15. There were different forms of religious cloaking but it mostly broke down into two broad areas. The first area was creating a religious slant to what organized scientology was already doing per Hubbard policies. This included such things as calling mandatory payments for services “fixed donations” to try to make it look like the payments were voluntary and not required to buy a service. They were not voluntary but the term “fixed donation” again was used to cloud this fact.

    The second broad type of religious cloaking was where we made up something that was not already part of organized scientology and pretended it was a vital or normal part of organized scientology’s actions such as Sunday services or using roman ministerial collars. This was done for no reason other than trying to “look religious” and gain advantages legally that were afforded to religions.

    16. Hubbard himself pushed many of the religious cloaking points for that very reason. He constantly came up with ideas to help make more money using religious cloaking. He made statements and put out at least one issue to scientologists around the world that he made no money from scientology and was just doing it because he cared. Nothing could be further from the truth as he received millions of dollars from organized scientology with it often being just taken by his subordinates as they later tried to make up phony legal significances for same to try to cover Hubbard legally and/or not risk tax exempt status for the organizations of scientology. Hubbard constantly pushed us in the Guardians Office and then later in CMO to make more money, including money for him, and use religious cloaking...

    17. In summation, religious cloaking was constantly pushed within organized scientology by Hubbard by its legal and PR departments and later by Miscavige to gain undeserved legal and PR advantages, to make more money, to use as a cover when abusing staff, public and even non scientologists, to hide behind when attacked by others and to use to discredit and attack others...

  9. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

  10. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    "Almost all people of all eras are hypnotics. Their beliefs are induced beliefs. The proper authorities saw to it that the proper belief should be induced, and people believed properly." - Charles Hoy Fort

    The above quote was taken from Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare by Michael A. Hoffman II

    Charles Fort said of humanity, "I think we are farmed".

    He obviously saw manipulation in every corner. In a certain regard, the elite do view all the rest as "cattle", to be "bred and herded" (for profit).

    Scientology is just another version of that.
  11. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I believe Scientology is a religion but, that its religious status should be denied because COS engages in practices that disqualify it for status under the law, i.e., those who run it don't hold sincere beliefs (on this point I'm uncertain), the practice of aggressively charging for services, the diversion of wealth to top officials (DM) within the organization, etc.,?
  12. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    That is such a poignant scene in the movie, Man on the Moon.

    The believers have real faith.

    It is believed to be miraculous, but it is not.

    I'm not sure if it's spiritual at all. The outcome hoped for is physical.

    I don't think there's anything strange about the fact it is in reality chicken blood, and it remains chicken blood whether or not it is believed to be human.

    Because it's fake surgery, most patients, if seeking treatment for terminal illness, die after this procedure, and they are really dead.

    It is really faith, it is not really psychic.

    If I'm not mistaken, this procedure is not legal in the U.S. because State codes require that promises of specific medical outcomes associated with medical procedures and drugs must be proven to be safe and effective. Hubbard's quack medical claims were discovered and dealt with by the FDA as early as the late fifties. It's my understanding that Dianetics had already run afoul of the American Psychiatric Association very early on, and that this was one of Hubbard's reasons for seeking to incorporate Scientology as a religion in 1954. The FDA seized Hubbard's niacin tablets in 1958, and in 1963 challenged claims he was making associated with use of the e-meter, on which they later required Hubbard to place a disclaimer.
  13. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I watched the video you linked in an earlier post to the Denise Brennan interview. I don't doubt her account of events. I understand that COS engages in shady illegal maneuvers to protect itself from vulnerability under the law, and I fully agree that insofar as their actions are criminally fraudulent they should be held to account. But, with regard to claims made by COS that Scientology is, at the end of the day, in fact a religion, I am persuaded that it is, whether or not those doing the cloaking actually believe it to be so. The Roman Catholic Church enjoys the protections Denise describes and is insulated from the same scrutiny. I doubt it would, for example, be legal to demand that employees be celibate if the RCC were subject to the requirements of the Fair Labor Standards Act.
  14. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I personally do not believe it is a religion. Hubbard even said it was not.

    The whole thing is based on "engrams" which I have never contacted in all my auditing. So in my view the whole thing falls down. And in my view, scientology as a religion is based on an unproven fact that there are no engrams, nor "clears" or "OT's".

    So, per hubbard, what is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is it is not a religion but a hyped up glorified sales marketing motivational organization, all for it's own identity or name benefit.

    This is true for me.

    Additionally, when I first got involved I was not seeking a religion. I only wanted to go "clear" per dianetics which hubbard said can happen in a few hundred hours. I was never seeking some spiritual path, or enlightment or anything but removing "engrams" so I could think without a hidden influence of a so called reactive mind. Somehow I got sold a "bridge to total freedom".

    25 years later I'm like WTF. And now that organization or religion that you think it is only wants to build pyramid's called "ideal orgs", not "ideal churchs". LOL

    By the way, don't all those old pyramid's have chambers in them of the mummified leaders at the time. And don't all the "ideal orgs" have an office of LRH in them. :laugh:
  15. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I hear where you're coming from. I believe Scientology is a religion because it appears to me to function like one, and individual members exhibit all the characteristics typical of religious devotees. It's also because my own experience as a Christian fundamentalist appears to correspond nicely to that of exes. I wasn't "seeking a "spiritual path" either. I became convinced that the God of the Bible was real, and that I was trapped in darkness and sin. I came to believe that Jesus truly is the Light of the world and that my only hope lay in his accomplished work of atonement. It isn't "religion" to the true believer; it's just true. I think your analogy of the pyramids is an apt one and that it makes my case.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Too funny Queemab321, functions like one, a religion? Are you kidding? How are you comparing that? Have you been on staff as a staff member? I was, it functions as a business. People buying services which is auditing and training, and these folks pay fixed prices for each service or auditing. And if one is not happy, all kinds of hoops have to be gone thru to convince the person to change his mind that he/she is now happy about the service of auditing and training.

    You have never been on staff, is this true?
  17. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

    Scientology not only appears to function as a scam, it does function as a scam.
    It appears to function as a business too, far more than it appears to function as a religion, but even as a business
    it functions as such a corrupt business that it functions more as a scam.
    Scientologists function as customers too. Pay the fee, get the service or product, far more thsn they function
    as religious participants.. Once again they pay for crap to such a degree that they function more as scam targets.

    I think scam victim is superordinate to religious adherent/devotee, when the religious function is cloaking a scam.
    Therefore,religious devotee and scam victim become mutually exclusive terms in those circumstances.
  18. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    No, I have never been on staff, but I have worked in several businesses, and I never found myself jumping through hoops to make people happy. Also, if I was unhappy working in a particular business, I simply gave my two weeks notice and left on good terms. Maybe I'm wrong, but this doesn't sound much like Scientology to me. Why did you join staff? Did you not personally feel it was important to raise money for the organization? If not, why did you do it?
  19. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    You would have made a great Expert Defense Witness at the Nuremberg Trials when Nazi "Doctors" were "unfairly prosecuted" for crimes against humanity for performing hideous genetic & surgical experiments and lethal medical atrocities on their "patients". You could have supported their contention that they were "in fact a medical doctor" because sometimes when their victims were about to die, they resuscitated them (so that they could be experimented upon with medical abominations another day).

    The fact that the Nazi "Doctor" performed emergency medical procedures to stop hemorrhaging when they needlessly amputated their "patient's" arms and legs (thus "saving their life") would make them in fact a real doctor, right?

    You seem to be either entirely clueless about what the scripturally mandated criminal practices of the Scientology "religion" are or--far worse, perhaps simply amoral.
  20. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Thanks for the reply.

    Unfortunately you are very wrong. Not that you are wrong in you as a person. But you just have no idea what goes on in scientology. You only see the outside that you are supposed to see by the Public Image created by scientology.

    You are, in fact 180 degrees opposite of really goes on. And you will never know until you experience being on staff as a staff member.

    Please do realize people like me are posting here because we were once true believers and experienced it all, before scientology and after scientolgy.

    Have you as a person experienced something that you thought was good, and then found out it wasn't so good, and then tried to explain to somebody?