ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Religion Black and White

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Queenmab321, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    If someone comes along and presents an argument that forces me to reevaluate my thinking on a given issue, especially one that I feel strongly about, I view that person as having done me a favor. At the end of the day, if I'm honest with myself, I will better understand the issue, whether or not I'm ultimately persuaded by the argument.

    I think the idea that the people reading this thread are vulnerable little children capable of being led by the nose down the garden path is insulting. You sound like cult members, anxious lest you be corrupted by the Internet.
  2. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Excellent post.
    I said it before, and it bears repeating: Scientology is to religion what child pornography is to art.
  3. kate8024

    kate8024 -deleted-

    Thats hilarious :roflmao: (I disagree, but I can certainly see how some people see it that way so its still funny)
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  4. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    At Stalag [STRIKE]17[/STRIKE] $cientology, indoctrination is common place.

  5. Alle G

    Alle G Patron with Honors

    What about tone scale? Did people believe in it?

    How did they explain to themselves needing bodies, owning bodies, worshipping bodies etc, stuff below body death? Did they suspect they are accepting a religious belief or they thought it was based on Hubbard’s scientific research too?

    Or did they perceive the tone scale as something natural and obvious, not requiring any special beliefs?

    I guess my question is: did people accept the bottom part of the tone scale as easily as the top one?
  6. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I guess what I'm trying to understand is what you mean when you say you were a "true believer." Your actual experience on staff didn't square up with the ideals you found expressed on paper. No doubt, just one more intentional bait and switch built right into the system by Hubbard to lure people in. And, you never thought of the peculiar beliefs you had begun to embrace or the manner in which those beliefs were held by the group as in any way religious. I get that. What I'm suggesting, and I certainly could be wrong, is that one may, without realizing it, fall into a pattern of behavior and belief that is characteristically religious. When I say it functions like a religion, I'm not referring to the day to day routine of the staff. I'm referring to how it functions psychologically for the individual and sociologically for the group. I'm talking about a community with its own shared reality that provides for its members existential certainty, a feeling of special, superior identity, the promise of salvation (clear, OT), a more or less exhaustive and dogmatic account of human origins and of humanity's place in the universe, hope for the future, a moral code, a common struggle, and an answer to the question, "What will happen to me when I die"? If Scientology does this, then, it seems to me, it's functioning just like any other religion, whether or not its adherents are consciously aware of it. I certainly think Hubbard was aware of it. He said the best way to make a million dollars is to start a religion, and I believe that's exactly what he set out to do.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  7. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    You are being way too significant for me.

    Here's my simple story.

    A young man read dianetics and then wanted to go "clear", all to lead a better life for himself & his family & friends. Then somehow after only reading all of hubbards books & listening to a whole bunch of lectures,

    (this young man did not read anything else to compare what he read by hubbard vs some other authors)

    why 26 years later the young man is now middle aged, and woke-up and found he was duped.

    This next comment is not directed at you but, in addition to my simple story, fuk the religion aspect of it, I was never seeking a spiritual path and I am still now not seeking a spiritual path, so I don't give a hoot about the so called religion of it.

    There is nothing more to understand about me. Anything I post on this board is based on my experiences and opinions of what I saw & learned.
  8. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    Setting aside the whole IRS, Religious Status issue which I think muddies the water quite a bit, I guess I just find it really odd to discover ex-Scientologists who don't see their experience in the cult, at least in retrospect, as having been religious. When I and my Wog friends see Tom Criuse, Juliette Lewis or Kirstie Alley, it's like, yeah, batshit crazy, religious zeolots. Obviously. Zoltan!
  9. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    understood. I grew up in a non religious family. We never talked about it. I view life more from the practical side, as in engineering.

    I always had one foot in and out of scientology when I was in, probably because of the religious aspect being pushed which I kept out of my mind. When ever I tried to talk to another about it, I always talked in terms that the training was like school, a academy. And the auditing just gave one insights to his life. I hated going to events, I just wanted them to be social events to shoot the shit. Hated clapping at the stupid picture, just went along with it.

    Whenever I see TV Evangelist on TV, I just want to puke. Same at events and everybody is going "oh, how so theta". And when I saw the latest IAS video with people singing, I :puke:. I just ain't that guy, and I'm never going to be.

    Let's all hold hands now & sing. :puke:
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    Well, you're quite the manipulator, Qeeenmab.

    So, Queenmab, you got what you wanted: someone, in essence, saying he left Scientology because it was a religion.

    Take that as a "win" and let this thread rest in peace.
  11. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation


    While in the cult and if remaining undeclared mattered, after it suddenly morphed into a 'religion' we all had to play the silly make believe game ... (when with other scientologists) so yes, by then it was functioning like a religion.

    There are a million reasons why it wasn't and isn't one but yes. it functions like one to this day.

  12. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Aside from the fact that I find Queenmab's posts generally unreadable by reason of the fact that they are so dizzily non-responsive and densely populated with passively aggressive, turgid DoubleSpeak, I think the posting style is remarkable in the sense that the wall-of-words, faux scholarship thrown up to foil peoples' troll detector seems to be better than the average troll's.

    Cue handwringers to now post in Queenmab's defense against those awful meanies like Veda and Hoax.
  13. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Well, he's got me hooked. :confused2:

    But so what? Even though I agree with most of what he says, it doesn't change a THING about what I think about Hubbard & Scientology.

    And, yes you two (Veda and Hoaxie) ARE very very bad meanies! :coolwink:

    Personally, I don't see the "problem" that you two [STRIKE]hallucinate and exaggerate[/STRIKE], oooops, I mean "see". :nervous:
  14. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    oh, I don't mind. I'm a furyan. And nobody is going to take my soul.
  15. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    "The truth to the average man is indistinguishable from a bad headache."
    -H.L. Mencken
  16. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    Alright, you've just assumed the voice of James Mason in my head. Congratulations. I hope you're happy.

    First of all, Veda, I don't have a secret agenda. I'm just engaging in a conversation. I'm expressing my understanding of things as best I can by my own lights and in good faith. I don't have anything to gain from "winning" an argument. In fact, if anything, the opposite is true. I can really only ever gain a better understanding of the world from dialogue with intelligent, articulate people who possess information I haven't seen and/or a point of view different from my own. Furthermore, no one is "supposed" to be concerned with anything I post. What I write either makes sense and is compelling or it doesn't and isn't (turgid? maybe a little?).

    Secondly, you're right. I'm not terribly close to the issues we're discussing. I've never been a Scientologist. I haven't given over years of my life to a cult. I've never been cut off from family members or friends because of my beliefs (I was excommunicated by the Presbyterians, but they're not very strict about such things). Other than being told at age five that I would burn alive forever if I didn't trust Jesus to save me, I'm not burdened with the effects of years of bizarre, psychological conditioning. But, this doesn't mean I don't care. It doesn't mean I support COS, and it doesn't mean I'm callously jerking you all around for my own amusement. I'm just trying to get at the truth.

    I'm sorry to lecture, but the ability to tolerate uncertainty, the ability to withhold assent, the ability to withstand contradiction and recognize the merit of opposing views -- all of this without lapsing into skepticism or relativism isn't "double speak," it's just intellectual maturity. The intellectually immature, by contrast, bristle when their pieties and subjective certainties are called into question because their need for dogmatic security trumps their need to inquire into the truth.

    p.s., for HH, if you think it's faux (turgid? maybe just a little?) scholarship, then look it the fuck up, bitch, and call me on it! Damn!
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  17. lost

    lost Patron with Honors

    Lets include Reverend Devon Newman of The Church of Scientology in the discussion shall we?
    Lots of reverends from lots of religions team up with known criminals to practice spiritually beneficial
    practices like planning a kidnap of a random cop and offing him. You know i can see how that is really
    science cloaked as religion with the Good Lady Reverend actually being a truly religious practioner. So
    thats settled it for me. Scientology is a religion. I'll just stay here or a few more months bouncing
    that around. There are many other Church of Scientology Reverends who we could compare to see
    which one is the most despicable. Some of them even councel parishioners in the flock to off themselves.
    I guess that for the Reverends thats a religious thing. I guess that is somehing they have faith in. I wonder
    if thats real faith or if they are not eally concious if it being faith or not. I wonder if Reverend Devon had faith in her crim partner.i wonder if that makes him and she a religious duo. There is a lot to think about. Or nothing that needs thinking about, to be thought about a lot.
  18. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    LOLOL…it's refreshing to see you saying what's really on your mind for a change.

    There is no need to do anything further because:

    1) You were never in Scn and obviously don't know what you are talking about.
    2) Your DoubleSpeak doesn't go anywhere or lead to any improved understanding of Scn--quite the opposite in fact. ​

    Good luck with your sermonizing ex-scientologists on a subject that you either haven't researched or understood in any meaningful way.
  19. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    Yes! Exactly! Just as burning people alive was a religious thing for the Inquisitors. There is nothing inherently good or redeeming or virtuous about religious faith in itself.

    "But 'tis that same religion oftener far
    Hath bred the foul impieties of men."

    That's from a poem I wrote called "De Rerum Natura." I like to attribute it to the 1st century, B.C., Epicurean philosopher, Lucretius, you know, for shits and giggles.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  20. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    How odd that must be! to make peremptory statements without the slightest pretense of offering an argument in support of one's assertions. It's almost as if you were unaware that such an argument is called for. Should I give you the benefit of the doubt, HH, and just assume you're bull baiting?

    Because a child is unable to understand sound argument, he is incapable of being persuaded by it. So, as George Eliot observes: "In all private quarrels the duller nature is triumphant by reason of dullness."
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013