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Religion Black and White

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Dianetics is religion dressed up as science. Why do you suppose it was so crucial to Hubbard that he demonize psychology and psychiatrists? It's precisely because it was they who were most capable of calling him on his bullshit?

"You wanna make real money, you gotta start a religion."



The only reason I've clicked disagree (and I did agree the other post about Scn) is that he did the Dianetics stuff before he decided to go looking for the religious cloaking.

Dianetics reads more like his own take on a sort of pop psychology of the day. I'm not dissing it- I actually like Dianetics. But whether I did or didn't, I think I'd still see it that way.
 

Veda

Sponsor
HEAD GAMES

[Insert any preamble followed by] "Scientology is a religion"
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[Insert any preamble followed by] "Scientology is a religion"


1) First insert any explanation, opinion, including criticism and/or condemnation of Dianetics, Scientology, Hubbard, etc.

2) Follow that with the words, "Scientology is a religion."

3) Do until "Homo Saps" start nodding heads. :yes:
 

Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
:wtf:

Dianetics? A "religious" book? :hysterical:

I read Dianetics while in college (and a few times more over the years). Whether true or not, it defines and describes a sort of THERAPY. If ANYTHING, it would be slotted in the category of PSYCHOLOGY or SELF-HELP.

I haven't read it recently, but as I recall, there was no mention of where we came from, how we got here, spirits, or anything else that would push it towards the categories of spirituality or religion.

To me, your comment is completely off the wall.

If you can manage to make your mind equate Dianetics with "religion", then I suppose you can make sense of just about anything (no matter how nonsensical).

If Dianetics is "religion", then so is Freud's psychotherapy. And, so is any other therapy dealing with the mind.

You are being way to liberal with meanings and definitions. With this you have qualified as a WORD CLOWN. :confused2:

Studies and practices involving the mind fall within the category of psychology. Dianetics purported to be ONLY about the MIND. Also, as I recall, there was no mention of past lives, and the earliest it dealt with were "prenatal engrams".

I take your point, Gadfly. There are no thetans, no past lives or Loyal Officers. But, you have already in Dianetics an idealized, pie-in-the-sky state of Clear. You have a total explanation for all human frailty and imperfection, along with absurd promises of miraculous release from those frailties and imperfections. Moreover, Hubbard provides in Dianetics a newly coined moral system of "dynamics" simplistically drawn from notions having to do with survival. The reader is led/expected to evaluate herself in light of these dynamics. All this, not to mention the first version of the central, hypnotic ritual of auditing. It's important to keep in mind that there is no science in Dianetics. Hubbard's "research" consisted of washing down Benzedrine with copious amounts of rum while sitting at his typewriter. The tone of Dianetics, that of a revelation worked out by a single, intrepid individual who relates his experience of the profound epiphany of scientific breakthrough, reflects a facile understanding of how science is actually done and manages to cast the "scientist," Hubbard, in the role of prophet.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: HEAD GAMES

[Insert any preamble followed by] "Scientology is a religion"
tumblr_ld50v7q6tn1qabw68o1_400.gif

[Insert any preamble followed by] "Scientology is a religion"


1) First insert any explanation, opinion, including criticism and/or condemnation of Dianetics, Scientology, Hubbard, etc.

2) Follow that with the words, "Scientology is a religion."

3) Do until "Homo Saps" start nodding heads. :yes:

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology aims to make a better world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a better world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a better world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a better world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a better world . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
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Originally Posted by Queenmab321
It's all religion, Gadfly. It always was. Dianetics is nothing if not a religious book. Of course you didn't call it religion. You were told religions resulted from implants and that Hubbard had discovered what's really going on. But that's just the point, isn't it? Every religion has a "what's really going on" and an incontrovertible Source. Scientologists in the 70's and 80's scheming to qualify for recognition as a religious organization, that's just some good old fashioned irony.


Originally Posted by Kate8024
I don't personally view Dianetics as a religious book - to me Dianetics is a pseudo-science book. There are other books used in Scientology which I do consider religious books though. One example is Creation of Human Ability, I see a lot of parallels in this book compared to an occult book of rituals for visiting the 'astral plane' or something along these lines. Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought spends a fair bit of time talking about the thetans and reincarnation which to me is the domain of religion. A History of Man requires a fair amount of faith to take seriously I think so I would consider that a religious book as well.


To me, the validity of the belief has nothing to do with using the label 'religion'. I've been to Discordian rituals where the people involved obviously knew the whole thing was bullshit but they still did it anyway. I'd call that religion.

Dianetics is religion dressed up as science.
...
"You wanna make real money, you gotta start a religion."



Based on the above described qualifications for something to be considered "religious" (i.e. writing down absurd ideas whose only credibility requires an act of faith), I would say you both should be congratulated for creating very religious material yourselves! LOL.

It really sounds like so much fun, I've got to try that!

Okay, here goes. . .

"My research has proven that each living person can only realize their full spiritual, eternal God-nature by finding and remaining focused upon an invisible piece of cherry jello which can only be located by means of Tripnostica-Ampersandini, a term that has not and must never be defined."

WOW! I did it! I created a religion!

Thanks you guys! You helped me realize that it's not as difficult as I thought.
 

Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
Based on the above described qualifications for something to be considered "religious" (i.e. writing down absurd ideas whose only credibility requires an act of faith), I would say you both should be congratulated for creating very religious material yourselves! LOL.

It really sounds like so much fun, I've got to try that!

Okay, here goes. . .

"My research has proven that each living person can only realize their full spiritual, eternal God-nature by finding and remaining focused upon an invisible piece of cherry jello which can only be located by means of Tripnostica-Ampersandini, a term that has not and must never be defined."

WOW! I did it! I created a religion!

Thanks you guys! You helped me realize that it's not as difficult as I thought.

Yes! Exactly! If you can manage to get people to believe that shit, yours and their right to believe it will be protected by the courts.

Here's an excerpt from United States v. Ballard, 1944:

"The religious views espoused by respondents might seem incredible, if not preposterous, to most people. But if those doctrines are subject to trial before a jury charged with finding their truth or falsity, then the same can be done with the religious beliefs of any sect. When the triers of fact undertake that task, they enter a forbidden domain. The First Amendment does not select any one group or any one type of religion for preferred treatment. It puts them all in that position."
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yes! Exactly! If you can manage to get people to believe that shit, yours and their right to believe it will be protected by the courts.

Here's an excerpt from United States v. Ballard, 1944:

"The religious views espoused by respondents might seem incredible, if not preposterous, to most people. But if those doctrines are subject to trial before a jury charged with finding their truth or falsity, then the same can be done with the religious beliefs of any sect. When the triers of fact undertake that task, they enter a forbidden domain. The First Amendment does not select any one group or any one type of religion for preferred treatment. It puts them all in that position."

What you need to understand is that Hubbard KNEW about these laws and precedents. He had his staff (and later teams of lawyers) research all of this. This is an area where Hubbard did actually do REAL RESEARCH. He had his staff go through the laws and precedents so that he could figure out how best to allow Scientology to get away with many things they couldn't otherwise get away with. That is WHY he chose to switch gears in the 1950s and began framing it all as "religion". It was a key part of the con. It was an integral aspect of the ruse.

He KNEW that setting up Scientology as a religion would give him incredible leeway, which he and Scientology wouldn't otherwise have.

That is WHY he set it up to appear as a religion.

Just because it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, does NOT mean that it IS A DUCK. At least, not when it comes to manipulative and sneaky Scientology.
 
Dianetics is religion dressed up as science. Why do you suppose it was so crucial to Hubbard that he demonize psychology and psychiatrists? Isn't it precisely because it was they who were most capable of calling him on his bullshit?

"You wanna make real money, you gotta start a religion."

It is because they knew that his psychological "research" was fast stream of conciousness lying. Narcissistic lying does not = religion. It =LYING.

People ask how intelligent people get taken in by it. You are a great example.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
...
Okay, here goes. . .

"My research has proven that each living person can only realize their full spiritual, eternal God-nature by finding and remaining focused upon an invisible piece of cherry jello which can only be located by means of Tripnostica-Ampersandini, a term that has not and must never be defined."

WOW! I did it! I created a religion!

Thanks you guys! You helped me realize that it's not as difficult as I thought.

I have no problem with this - believe it and call it your religion if that makes sense to you. Some Pastafarians are religious about their Pastafarianism and its certainly not any less silly than what you wrote. Muslims bow and pray in the direction of a city that is sometimes on the other side of the planet. Mormons believe God lives on the planet Kolob. Many Shamans believe they climb ropes of light to heaven where they meet their spiritual spouse and some believe they can change into animals. Most Christians drink the blood and eat the flesh of their savior. Some neo-pagans believe you can eat a couple herbs and carry around a quartz crystal to heal cancer. Some Hindu worship an image of a linga and yoni and many of the Hindu gods are frequently depicted with multiple arms. The Maradonian Church worships a soccer player and one of their commandments is you have to change your middle name to Diego. Some female saints supposedly healed leprosy by licking the scabs of the lepers. The religion of Nuwaubianism is constantly changing depending on the whims of its founder (sound familiar? lol) The Aetherius Society includes teachings about how to channel extraterrestrials. The Cosmic People of Light Powers teach communicating telepathically with aliens. The Pana Wave believe they postponed the apocalypse - so do various people of a number of religions. Discordians have commandments both to never eat hotdog buns and specifically to eat a hotdog with a bun in order to go against teachings of no beef, pork, and hot dog buns imposed by various religions.

Your cherry jello religion is not as weird as you think.
 

Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
Re: HEAD GAMES

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

You are getting sleepy . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology aims to make a batter world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a batter world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a batter world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a batter world . . . .

Scientology aims to make a batter world . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

Scientology possesses the only workable technology to free beings . . . .

(repetitive technique)

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .
Scientology is a religion . . . . . .

Flunk
 

Gadfly

Crusader
What everyone needs to realize is the HISTORICAL aspect to all of this.

When the word "religion" initially appeared, it primarily applied to the extant MAJOR religions. When I did the Minister's Course in Scientology back in the late 1970s or early 1980s, it went through the MAJOR religions of the planet. There was no mention of cults of tiny little scams like Scientology.

The word meant certain things BACK THEN. But, the same word has been kept while the realities surrounding the word have shifted greatly over the past 300 or so years. The problem is with our limited vocabulary. New words and definitions have not appeared to keep up with the changing reality of these somewhat related newer "religions".

For example, there should be a word that describes a situation where a brilliant con man knowingly creates a fictional paradigm to APPEAR as a religion. THAT is what Scientology actually is. It is a con job. It is a complex charade spread out over many years.

The word religion is absurdly general and VAGUE. It is really so abstract, that today it can mean just about anything to anyone (as this thread well shows). In truth, abstract terms mean nothing without a context, without qualifiers. The word "religion" is a vague generality that defines no actual specific thing (as are all abstractions). The problem is that human laws treat the word "religion" as if there is a direct correlation to actual, existing things. But, that is not true, and that is a very weird assumption.

Man's vocabulary and intellect has not kept pace with the ever-changing realities of the world (and universe).

Granted, the various laws need to get updated and taken out of the 16th century as far as religion is concerned in general.

I agree, as some others have said earlier, that the proper gauge for tax exemption should ONLY BE legitimate charity work to the needy and suffering. In earlier times, the powerful Catholic Church (and others) managed to influence the writing of these laws that gave them blanket exemption. As the times have changed, quite markedly, the laws should too, but they have lagged far behind the changing realities.

If there was no tax exemption for religions, Scientology would research how else they might be able to violate normal codes of decency, and they would morph into THAT. And they would convince many that they were now THAT. They can be VERY convincing (they are great deceivers). Though, really, at this point, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Scientology couldn't keep their tax exemption, because they would no longer exist! :thumbsup:

I get it. In a certain regard Scientology does qualify as a "religion", by common definitions. But also, as I see it, it also doesn't qualify. The problem is with the grossly limited vocabulary, and limitations of the rational conceptual thinking mind to properly label and connect the world out there with the IDEAS and CONCEPTS in here.

Korzybski coined the phrase that "the terrain is not the map", meaning that the reality out there that is observed and experienced is NOT the same as the words and ideas that describe and define it. The gulf between the two is especially large with regards to Scientology as a religion!
 
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Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
It is because they knew that his psychological "research" was fast stream of conciousness lying. Narcissistic lying does not = religion. It =LYING.

People ask how intelligent people get taken in by it. You are a great example.

Taken in by what exactly? I don't believe in thetans or engrams any more than I believe in angels or burning bushes. I simply believe that in both instances one is dealing with religious belief.
If a man tells you the house he's selling doesn't have termites and it does, that's lying, but if a man tells you that if you don't sell all your possessions and give them to the Church, you're going to burn in hell, that's just religion. Caveat emptor.
 

Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
For example, there should be a word that describes a situation where a brilliant con man knowingly creates a fictional paradigm to APPEAR as a religion. THAT is what Scientology actually is. It is a con job. It is a complex charade spread out over many years.
ting things. But, that is not true, and that is a very weird assumption.

How about Mormonism?
 

kate8024

-deleted-
How about Mormonism?

While Joseph Smith was alive there were a lot of things in their religious teachings that would change because God told him to do something or have others do something and it just happened that the thing God told him or others to do directly benefited him. Like when God said that the other Mormons should build a house for Joseph Smith.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Interesting factoid about the Mormon cartoons: in a lot of the official cartoons there are places where you can find BYU hidden in the drawing. I used to go to a book of Mormon study class thingy and we would watch the cartoons and one day one of the girls there noticed it and from them on we would try to find the hidden BYU in the cartoons.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
That particular cartoon about Mormonism is largely correct, it has a few minor errors or places where it tries to fill in holes where there is not a specific Mormon teaching but nothing majorly wrong. One thing about Mormonism that it does not share with many other Christian religions though is evolving doctrine. New doctrine always trumps old doctrine in Mormonism.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Yes! Exactly! If you can manage to get people to believe that shit, yours and their right to believe it will be protected by the courts.

What I have shared about my religion is certainly not "shit" as you have characterized it. I believe you may wish to take this as a religious learning experience and address the issue of your religious bigotry.

What I would like to share with you does not require belief because it is provable. Let me recommend you spend just 5 minutes of your time practicing Tripnostica-Ampersandini.

It will bring you untold spiritual bliss and then you will not have to believe--you will know it is the truth.
 

kate8024

-deleted-
Side note: I _love_ in the Southpark video where they sing "Lucy Harris smart smart smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart" lol
 
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