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Scientology’s Meltdown: A Story Told in Pictures

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by Free to shine, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. onthepes

    onthepes Patron with Honors

    Thanks for this Gadfly. Excellent material.

    Also thanks to Helluvahoax. I checked your other post on Madame Blavatsky

    "She died: 1891

    He was born: 1911​

    Just time enough for Ron to get in a "quickie" lifetime as a race-car driver on another planet...or a Rock Star that burns out young. "

    I remember listening to "State of Man" and hearing Ron talk about coming back to beat his own record as a race-car driver. What an imagination. I think he should have just stuck to Science Fiction and leave us wide-eyed impressionables alone.
  2. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    As Gadfly said:
    I like this. It seems to be true. And in proof Steiner's work continues, his schools thrive, his pupils are creative, other Steinerite projects are still working away, doing some good and doing no harm.

    The world is not hypercritical but we do hate to be cheated.
  3. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader


    When I wrote the first post about Blavatsky, I looked up the dates of birth and death too - I forgot to inlcude them in the post. Thanks!

    Now, I have no idea about this whole "come back again" thing, I have opinions, and curiosities, but I really don't "know for sure". Mainly I have read the claims and statements of a greta many others, and have had a few strange personal experiences (OBE, exterior, etc.) - not enough to base a belief upon though. :confused2:

    Interestingly, Hubbard said on a tape somewhere that, "oh, yes, I have been on this track of discovery for quite a long time now . . . ".

    Yeah, I bet he has - as a charlatan, manipulator and faker! :yes:

    When you read detailed biographies about Blavatsky one can't help but notice deep personality similarities between them, though it also seems that many shysters have similar traits - prone to talk about self, guaging everything against self, exaggerating oneself greatly and often, big story tellers, greatly embellishing his or her own past (or making it up entirely to support the illusion), authoritative, demanding, hypcritical as regards what they say and what they do, conniving, manipulative, controlling, etc.
  4. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks Gaddie and HH - this is a good thread, that is good info. Gonna get that book, Gad. :yes::thumbsup:
  5. Student of Trinity

    Student of Trinity Silver Meritorious Patron

    I don't really have much more time for Steiner's original ideas than for those Blavatsky or Hubbard, but yet I have to concede this good point. Somehow Steiner's work has been carried on widely, long after his death. There are lots of Waldorf schools around the world, and (I understand) lots of biodynamic farms. I don't think these enterprises have really been significantly better than mainstream alternatives, but I'll concede that they don't seem to have been significantly worse, either.

    And given that, if a lot of people actually involved in the Steinerite stuff have found it worthwhile, then who am I to call them stupid? Even if all Steiner really did was express harmless but insignificant content in a style that some people really like, well, that's not a bad thing. Few people succeed in doing as much. And of course it could be that Steiner really was a good, honest craftsman, who turned out some good, solid work that I've failed to appreciate fairly, even if he didn't really set the world on fire.

    So somehow I have to grudgingly admit that Steiner is in a totally different class. Maybe it's because he was better trained, but I suspect it was probably mostly because he was more sincere. Even if he had some ego issues, he seems to have been genuinely trying to improve the world around him, even at personal risk and cost. Responsible people really did seek his help, and even if they were misguided to do so, this is in any case a very different record for Steiner from the invented heroics of Hubbard. And Steiner collaborated with others without hiding their contributions. That's an important indicator right there.
  6. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    The book never mentions Hubbard or Scientology, and more traces the idea of the "hidden masters" that originated with Blavatsky and Theosophy. It also keeps up with Krisnamurti's history too. He was the one that Leadbeater "discovered" and claimed would become the "World Teacher" ushing in a new great age.
    THAT is a great story in itself (back in the day I read many books by and about Krisnamurti).

    Imagine being taken as a youngster and groomed to be the "new world teacher"? Leadbeater wanted to create the "vessel" that would attract the spirit of this "world teacher", through diet, education (indocrination), meditation, etc.

    I flipped through the rest of the pages, and it comes upon others such as P.D. Ouspensky (who I always liked reading), later evolution of Theosophy, and the channenlings of Elizabeth Clare Prophet (who also had a "link to the "hiddden masters").

    For anyone at at familiar with ideas about the Great White Brotherhood, the Great Heirarchy, of the Ascended Masters, this book gives a critical look at the development of these various ideas and the movements that ushered these ideas in. It gets into all the internal struggles, personalities, and such, and one cannot help bu notice similarities between Hubbard and some of these people.

    The author doesn't really address whether or not any of these ideas are true or not, and more concentrates on the PEOPLE involved. I am enjoying it, especially since I was deeply absorbed in all of this stuff in my younger years! :thumbsup:
  7. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    There is an important factor here. Many of these earlier spiritual movements also, as a sort of ancillary factor, got involved in OTHER aspects of improving mankind.

    For example, Annie Besant of Theosophy was an avid supporter of "freeing India from English imperialist rule". There are streets named after her in India. Even though Blavatsky urged Theosophy to stay out of politics, Annie was a radical in certain regards. She was an early supporter of women's rights and birth control. These aspects did not really have ANYTHING to do with the core materials of Theosophy, yet became LINKED with the subject.

    H. S. Olcott had his own personal hobbyhorse with Buddhism, much to Blavatsky's annoyance at times. In Ceylon he did a great deal of work to start schools, and to fight with legislation to protect Buddhists from the creeping fanaticism of the often over-zealous Christian missionaries.

    These people often truly DID want to help mankind, and even did so along various social channels, that were NOT really directly related with Theosophy. But in the minds of people, such endeavors became connected. And sometimes, Besant and Olcutt (and Leadbeater and others) linked these ideas themselves (to get what they wanted).

    For example, Christian missoinaries TODAY do many things to assist education, nutrition and medical needs in many poverty-stricken areas. The religious apsect gets connected to other genuine desires to help others. There is a Christian donation center in town where I live, and they send boxes of clothes to Africa every week. Of course, they try to convert too. It is all a matter of balance.

    Generally, nothing is just "one thing". Things overlap and get interconnected. Steiner's interests in farming and architecture were separate, but related to his spiritual pursuits, and he was a very intelligent fellow who was brought up along a German idealist tradition.

    I would add Student of Trinity that MANY people truly want to "help Mankind". But, I never base any judgment on "intentions". To me that is an indicator of absolutely nothing. In his own deranged way Hitler wanted to usher in a great "new world" and did truly aim to "help people". The Christian missionaries would often resort to all sorts of deceptions to usher in their great new world. The psychiatrist who lunged the ice pick into the frontal lobes of a mental patient truly felt that he was "helping". One needs to look past the intentions. There is a very good reason why this saying exists:

    The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions

    Many people now, and all throughout history, have truly had wonderful intentions to "help mankind", but their actually behaviors and the effects they create on real people in the real world are often far less lofty as compared to their stated "ideals". That was certainly the case with the Inquisition's treatment of disbelievers and heretics, just as it is for Scientology today.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  8. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    I would add that while Theosophy and Christianity often had positive benefits in terms of helping people and bringing about improvements to society, along OTHER lines than the direct context of the religion itself, with Scientology it is quite different.

    With Scientology the various aims at drug rehabilitation (Narconon), education (study tech into society), psychiatric reform (CCHR) and helping criminals (Criminon) mainly exist to help and support Scientology! These don't exist because of any great urge to sincerely "help others". Granted, these motives in some people might be taken advantage of by Scientology. For example, the urge and desire to "help mankind" is routinely taken great advantage of by the Hubbard and by the Church of Scientology.

    Scientology exists, or so it says, to "make the able more able". They have very little concern for those people in various states of poverty of suffering. Anyone who is not doing well, is not "able".

    In Scientology the "aim to help mankind" is severely focused along only one channel and one channel alone: guaranteeing your eternity. And THAT can ONLY be done through and with Scientology methods (this idea being a very basic aspect of the subject and "philosophy").
  9. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    Absobloodylutely. :goodposting: