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Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
And believe me, if anyone ever believed that they could just pay money then sit back and enjoy the scenery while they get a Cadillac ride to a higher spiritual state then they are IDIOTS. Complete total idiots. No rules can ever protect them from the consequences of that.
 

HelluvaHoax!

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An example: many of the critics and writers in their post Scio lives imagine what Xenu looked like and portray him as a comic-book superhero type chap with evil eyes. This was their image of him. yet, by contrast, Bill Robertson asked LRH what Xenu looked like and LRH described as a shabby old man in a shabby grey suit, walked with a limp and a can, had half-tinted glasses, and some sort of eczema on his bald pate. And tobacco stained teeth and fingers.

Quite a difference. Is one of them correct? Did he even exist? I never encountered him in any session so I don't know.


How about Santa Claus? I am guessing that you "never encountered him in any session" either.

So you "don't know" if Santa Claus is real or not?

What a fascinating method you have of determining what is reality. Now your posts are beginning to make a little more sense.




HELPFUL TIP: If you are still struggling over the existence of a "shabby old man...with tobacco stained teeth" you might want to do a quick Google Image search for the term 'L. Ron Hubbard'.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
I agree with this answer, but it's only half true!
Here is my answer to FBM

The other half is that the sicko cult has sacred scriptures (Ron hubbard pseudo tech) wich dictates how to ''handle'' people, life, problems and any issue. So Lisa M was handled per the sacred scriptures, like thousands of people worldwide who, day after day, encounter mental breakdown for such application of pso-called pseudo tech (processing and ethics , RPF on them).

This process, called introspection rundown, consist of depriving people of any human right, righ to communicate, right to freedom, locking them up into a small space and leave them in isolation, giving them psychiatric drugs, watch and guard them from escape and release them only when they promess they can deserve to be trusted and conduct them the way they are expected to conduct themselve. They are deprived of any medical help to get investigations ad proper medical treatment of such mental issues.


Otherwise, no matter how they are doing, they won't be released.
The more they scream and try to escape\recover their basic rights, the more they will be confined to a very small space....

This is a piece of religious assistance and tech application of $cientology.
Any ''minister of the cult\auditor'' learn to apply this process to any ''parishionner\pc'' going crazy after years of midfuck. Also you are expected to pay for such baby watch and emprisonment.

Lisa M is not an isolated case - she is one of the thousands we never hear about- in the cult or in the independant field if such tech is applied. Their spouse, children, parents, whoever, despite knowing there is something wrong, won't rescues their relative not to get the ''religious rage'' onto them - which is always very much costly.....

I, like many here, was involved in depriving these people of their rights with any means like
- running the processes as an auditor,
- ordering ithe process as the C\S,
- guarding them locked up, (as a good $cientologist lossing his mind)
- or administer them drugs to keep them asleep.

We did apply the tech, 100% on source, without any sens of critical mind we had replaced by pseudo scientific cultist mindfuck - in or out of the CO$. But we have been good $cientologists in good standing, saving the planet....



So here we have the real issue laid out. You set aside your own critical faculties [YOU did that. 100% your own responsibility] as well as your own common sense and your own ability to see the obvious in front of your own eyes, and you replaced all of that with the idiocy of being a robot obeying orders, and here you are blaming it all on someone else ! ! ! ! ! !

Well I never did that. And I was never conned. I saw what was going on and rejected the crap all along and took on only what was of value and what was good - and I freely admit I even had momentary lapse in this, but I recovered them while still in the CofS. But I was a trained Expanded Dianetic auditor and I read the Introspection HCOBs and I decided right there and then that I wasn't going to touch this with a fucking barge pole. And I never did.

If I could do that then why didn't you?
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Our Leon, on the other hand, walks bravely amongst the DBs, SPs, and No Case Gain cases, ever seeking to coax them away from the edge of the abyss and towards the Bridge to Total Freedom.

Thank you, Leon! for caring about us little beings.



:grouphug:
A cluster of tiny beings saying, "Thank you, Leon!"




I will on this thread ignore all Ad Hominems such as these here, as well as any posts attached.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Re: Faux therapy explained.



A person getting into scientology for any reason at all will, after a while, almost certainly be disappointed and disillusioned.

The exception (assuming they've cleverly managed to avoid any cultic glue) is someone who gets involved purely to study and operate as an auditor because when they become disappointed and disillusioned they can just blithely wander out the door ... and still operate as an auditor, if that is what they choose to do.

IOW they can dump the cult, continue to pretend to be therapist and laugh and sneer at everyone else.

Such is life.




I certainly do not laugh and sneer at anyone and I don't "pretend to be a therapist".
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I will on this thread ignore all Ad Hominems such as these here, as well as any posts attached.


That's fine to ignore Ad Hominems.

But you shouldn't ignore the Ad HomoNovems. Those could really help a Homo Novus like yourself.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
...




The perfect question!

My guess is that Leon will cleverly slip in a non-Hubbard, non-Scientology definition of his own for "OT". And therefore what he calls Scientology will not in fact be Scientology at all, but instead Leonology.

I have never once seen a Scientologist ever demonstrate OT. Unless they use their own made-up definition for it.

If they use the Hubbard definition of 'Operating Thetan', they simply cannot do it--but they are experts at drowning other people in words talking about the wonders and miracles of OT.

Okay, Leon, it's your turn--dazzle us!


So what do you want me to do? Define OT according to Hubbard's terms? Or define OT? The one you can read in the Tech Dict, and if I do the other then I am "defining it on my own terms". Where does that leave me room to answer anything?


OT means "can do". You're as OT as you "can do". It has never meant anything else.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Leon, you have essentially acknowledged Hubbard was a con artist, yet you continue to promote his goods.

Due to my previous experiences of getting conned and helping Scientology organizations that conned others through all means of deceptive tactics including fraudulent marketing, I can't say I'm presently in the market for any more.

But I previously asked this question (below) on behalf of any potential new consumers so they don't get screwed like the thousands of us who already have, and would appreciate an answer:


What (if anything) do you believe can be achieved by way of using Scientology that cannot be achieved through other means?
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
all of the scientology materials were leaked online decades ago why would someone need another interpretation?


On the one side there is the long list of things individuals say needs handling. On the other side there is the long list of Scientology remedies.

So you have someone saying he has a pain in his zorch. What remedy to use? Well, if you look at the matter in depth you will soon realise that ANY condition could be argued to be the result of ANY mental construct, and so ANY remedy should or could be applicable.

pain in zorch? That could be an engram, a secondary, a service fac, a misunderstood word, out TRs, incomlete Purif, poorly done Objectives, out-communication with the body, Problems, out rudiments on the body, Long-duration ARC breaks with the body, etc etc etc etc. And a few dozen more.

Oh, and PTSness. So for example "All illness is PTSness". Technically, yes. When you are ill you are being the effect of the body or a virus or whatever, and this effect state will certainly have earlier similars and so somewhere there was a big effect state that you never handled at the time etc etc and so you are PTS. According to sacred scripture. (pause while I vomit)

But to derive from this that all illnesses can be "cured" by doing a PTS handing is being stupid. It is NOT standard tech (whatever that is, I have no definition for it) Finding, on any given person, the route towards handling any given malady, takes observation, understanding, intelligence, and some well chosen processes all based on really good Basic Auditing. Or maybe just put some Savlon on it or get a good night's rest.

A robotic C/S under pressure to get the Org's Income up will always fail. That's Leon's first rule of technical application.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Leon, you have essentially acknowledged Hubbard was a con artist, yet you continue to promote his goods.

Due to my previous experiences of getting conned and helping Scientology organizations that conned others through all means of deceptive tactics including fraudulent marketing, I can't say I'm presently in the market for any more.

But I previously asked this question (below) on behalf of any potential new consumers so they don't get screwed like the thousands of us who already have, and would appreciate an answer:


I do not "promote his goods". I never have.

What I promote is that when used with intelligence and discrimination there is worthwhile value to be found in his works. Value that can not be found anywhere else. But "the tech" is only as good as the person applying it, and not one smidgen of a bit better.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
I think I have caught up with posters. I'll look it all over again later and see if I've missed anyone.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
I do not "promote his goods". I never have.

What I promote is that when used with intelligence and discrimination there is worthwhile value to be found in his works. Value that can not be found anywhere else. But "the tech" is only as good as the person applying it, and not one smidgen of a bit better.

The best promotion is "word of mouth" advertising based upon your own personal experiences. Your positive opinion of a product or service you've used. Your post above I've just quoted is an example of that to which I am referring.

You say:
Value that can not be found anywhere else.

If I was creating some promotional literature that is exactly the type of line I would use, if it were true.

And if it IS true, why won't you answer my question?
What (if anything) do you believe can be achieved by way of using Scientology that cannot be achieved through other means?
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
Me just dropping into this conversation. Frankly speaking, I don't believe a second that Hubbard was a con man.

I am saying this because this comes up in every 2nd or third post I am exposed to. If Hubbard were a con why would he have bothered auditing himself even when already half dead? He cared until his last breath about Scientology and that was what his life was dedicated to.

BTW@Leon-2: top-drawer posts I fully agree with :clap:
 
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Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Rehypothecating gold that doesn't even exist.

Rehypothecating? Couldn't find a definition for this.


Do you know that S and double triangle symbol? I was told early on in Scio what the S really stood for and was told to make sure that I got what I paid for, otherwise don't buy.

Really? OK, what does it really stand for?
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Type4_PTS

What (if anything) do you believe can be achieved by way of using Scientology that cannot be achieved through other means?



Answer: Complete erasure of engrams.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Me just dropping into this conversation. Frankly speaking, I don't believe a second that Hubbard was a con man.

I am saying this because this comes up in every 2nd or third post I am exposed to. If Hubbard were a con why would he have bothered auditing himself even when already half dead? He cared until his last breath about Scientology and that was what his life was dedicated to.

BTW@Leon-2: top-drawer posts I fully agree with :clap:

Certainly Hubbard cared about Scientology and his life was dedicated to it for some decades. It provided to him some things that he very much desired. Suitcases containing millions of dollars in cash being one of them. Plus he had thousands of admirers, a flock of teen girls working on his behalf as messengers, helping him get dressed, plus many other benefits that came with this position he created.

I get that you don't believe he was a con man.

In Wikipedia, 'confidence trick' is defined like this:

A confidence trick ... is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence, used in the classical sense of trust. Confidence tricks exploit characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté and greed.

An individual who operates such scams is known as a confidence artist, con-man or con artist, and such people can operate alone or in concert with others.

<snip>
Full entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick

If he was not a con man then why tell all the lies about his past?

Why publish a book entitled 'Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health' when there was no scientific process used?

The book assured us that:
Dianetics is an “exact science” on the order of engineering and is simpler, as exact, and far more useful than physics and chemistry.

That was never the case and either Hubbard knew that wasn't the case or he was completely delusional (which is a distinct possibility). :whistling:

As Jefferson Hawkins wrote:

In a sense, Hubbard (and Scientologists) spent the next 30+ years backing away from the assertions in Dianetics. It was “scientific,” yet there were no actual research papers, research records (peer reviewed or otherwise), or anything else that demonstrated he had not, in fact, invented or borrowed the whole thing. I recall at one point I was working on writing an introduction to Dianetics, The Original Thesis and asked the Archives department if I could see Hubbard’s original research papers and case notes. They said no such papers or notes existed. In other words Hubbard, who obsessively kept everything about his life from early childhood, had neglected to preserve these?

So after a few years, Hubbard backed away from the “scientific” claim and re-branded it as a religion. And even to this day, Scientologists will back off from the “science” claim and begin attacking “science” as inferior to Hubbard’s spiritual intuition if you bring the subject up.

Hubbard’s inability to produce anything that resembled a Clear was a continual source of embarrassment. If you listen to the Congress lectures (nothing I recommend by the way), he is continually asserting, “We’re almost there, we’re on the road to producing a real Clear, it’s going to happen,” and so on. Then about 1959, he says “we’ve bypassed Clear and we’re going straight for OT.” Huh?

Then all the excitement about OT, all the Advance magazine stories of OT Phenomena. Then after a few years, you see all the rationalizations and excuses for why OT “powers” never materialized – PTS, bypassed case, drugs, so on and so on. Now Scientology backs away from all those heady claims about OT. “He didn’t really mean cause over matter, energy, space and time…” I’ve had it explained to me that an OT is really just someone who can live a more successful life – a sort of Tony Robbins result in other words, not an advanced being with superior spiritual powers.

Dianetics was strong stuff. It made all kinds of amazing claims about the nature of man and the mind and how people could be Cleared. I got caught up in it. A lot of people did. Then when the results failed to materialize, you get the reasons, the excuses, the justifications. And Scientologists, like Hubbard, become masters at explaining away the lack of results.

Source: http://tonyortega.org/2013/01/11/blogging-dianetics-part-2-the-state-of-clear/
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Cold and windy on the beach.

OK, now for Gibs' question. It's an important one. What is Clear and OT and where the fuck are they? {I'm just quoting Jason, not swearing}

Just think back to 1949 or so and put yourself in Hubbard's shoes for a moment. He sincerely (I do believe) reckon that he had "discovered" the workings of the mind and he was getting good results from the work he was doing with his clients. He was on to something BIG. He'd found engrams and locks and grief incidents and all this stuff and had observed reactivity in people and this explained what was causing that and he had a way of erasing it all. Wow!

From here it is an easy step to wonder what would one be like if one were totally free of ALL such engrams and reactivity? That would be a real super-being. Surely. At the very least he or she would be cleared of all reactivity and would be free to use the full amount of inherent life-energy in the pursuit of their goals. What would one call such a person? A Clear! Yeah! That's a good name for it. A Clear.

Recognize that at this stage he never even had one yet. And factually he never knew whether he could even attain such a state in anyone. But, in theory, it should be possible. So he marketed it. Figure out the details later. Now one can call that a con if one wants to. Or maybe just as excess of chutzpah. Whatever, people bought it and so he sold it. People certainly wanted it.

But how to get it? And how to know when one had it? These remained unanswered questions.

Free of all engrams. Free of Fac-One. Free of this, of that, of the other thing. Each one looked promising when he first got someone there, none of them panned out in the long run. Always the goalposts receded. But he kept at it.

How to define it? Didn't know that either. Tried all sorts of definitions to see if he could attain one of them. Never did except temporarily.

You see, essentially he was trying to define a not-thereness. And how does anyone define that? How do you describe anything that is not there? It can't be done. I can define a pencil as being whatever, but to define an absence of a pencil? How to describe a not-there-ness? Can't really be done.

And then the idea of OT came to him. He had people who were exteriorised - "there's my body. I'm here". So you're not a body, you're a spirit of some equally undefinable qualities describable only by saying what it isn't. But what is it? Not this, not that, not the other thing.
But, in theory again, this spirit should be able to function without a body. But how to get someone who could be shown able to be so? Where to find such a one? Or how to transform someone through auditing so that he was such a being. How to do that?

And every now and again he had someone who could do it once. Or twice. And then not again. I myself was fully ext with full visio. I saw my body in the chair over there. No shadow of doubt about it. And then it was gone again and I was in the body once more, looking through its eyes. I have done this many times over the years but it has never lasted long. Never so I could go touring or anything. But I have no doubts as to the reality of it.

So "show me a fucking Clear", says Jason. Can't.

Did they ever exist? Oh yes. Momentarily. Even now on a good day I'm as clear as can be. Bu don't try and measure it. That will interiorise me and it'll be gone. It manifests only for as long as you don't try and prove it's there.


Pilot actually said it right. he had his finger right on it. The wins of Scientology can be divided into three groups.

Group one is the way things just go better for one. One gets to be more "lucky". It can't be measured nor can one point to a process that brought it about. It happens as a by-product of getting into the subject. Most people notice this change.

Next are the gains to be made on the Lower Grades - IF DONE PROPERLY. Which is not difficult. These gains are easy to produce, they last a long time, and they truly are the best of Scientology.

And the there are the "OT Levels" which, IF DONE PROPERLY, will provide the guy with some great experiences. Ext perception and all sorts of things. But they are elusive and come and go at a whim. They don't last long. Don't try and hold it, don't expect to be able to demonstrate them to others, don't try to prove it in any way.

Is it all a con? Maybe. I don't know. For some people it sure was, but in all of them I will show you outnesses in their auditing. If that means anything. You pay all you've got and you get what you get.

In all my years I paid the CofS, I think, less than about $2,000. I paid a bit for Excalibur. The rest I did solo all by myself and still continue to do. Was it worth it? I will do it all again. Gladly. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

Has it ever crossed your mind that hubbard might have been deceiving himself. The mental world is a very big place with innumerable creations possible. But it is apart from this physical world and much of what's there (in the mental world) cannot be expressed here (in the physical world). What's true for you might very well be true in the mental world, but it is only true in the mental world and true only for you, you can't bring it to the physical world. The physical world we have to share with all others, the mental world is all yours. Can you imagine the chaos were it possible to bring your mental constructs to the physical, yours and everyone else's? If you push the belief that the mental world is part of the physical world and can be brought about by the thetan's abilities you can drive people insane. The mental world is there for you to explore to your hearts content but it is your own private mental world. Your mental world belongs to you and by that same law another's mental world belongs to them. How can anyone presume to be an advisor in another's mental world while in the same thought be the soul creator in their own.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Has it ever crossed your mind that hubbard might have been deceiving himself. The mental world is a very big place with innumerable creations possible. But it is apart from this physical world and much of what's there (in the mental world) cannot be expressed here (in the physical world). What's true for you might very well be true in the mental world, but it is only true in the mental world and true only for you, you can't bring it to the physical world. The physical world we have to share with all others, the mental world is all yours. Can you imagine the chaos were it possible to bring your mental constructs to the physical, yours and everyone else's? If you push the belief that the mental world is part of the physical world and can be brought about by the thetan's abilities you can drive people insane. The mental world is there for you to explore to your hearts content but it is your own private mental world. Your mental world belongs to you and by that same law another's mental world belongs to them. How can anyone presume to be an advisor in another's mental world while in the same thought be the soul creator in their own.


What on earth are you going on about? I know all this that you write about. The parts that make any sense at least.

What is your question?
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Your own private mental world is what governs your ability to interact with others in the real world.

What don't you understand about this?
 
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