ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Scientology's End - less wishful thinking please

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by FascinatedNeverIn, Jan 28, 2014.

View Users: View Users
  1. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you, FNI. :yes:

    And, welcome to this here Rodeo. :clap:

    Contained in the body of work in the Threads of this Board there is more solid, accurate and insightful information than anywhere else re: El Ron (from Folks that actually interacted with Hisself) and Scn (from Folks that have done parts, or pretty much all, of everything comprising the entire "Bridge"--"Admin" & "Tech" Training and Processing). Every era, echelon and experiential scenario of El Ron and Scn has been detailed, delineated and dialogued about by Folks that saw it, were part of it, did it, left it and are now here...from the '50's to the '00's, from St. Hill to IHQ, from FCDC to Flagship Apollo. :ohmy:

    You're most welcome to join this here big conversation. But, please understand that thousands of Folks have written millions of words in gut wrenching, explicit, honest and brilliant narratives, dialogues and analysis for nearly a decade here re: El Ron and Scn, and many of Us have read and participated in a lot of it, a buncha Us in much of it and some of Us in most all of it. :melodramatic:

    What is it you want to ask that you feel would be relevant to your understanding. :coolwink:

    Face:)

    PS: Unfortunately, the "tortuous lingo" is an essential essence of Scn and the Scn experience...For some reason, for the most part, a fool progresses well in "understanding" Scn but stupid people have a hard time "getting 'It'". :no::hysterical:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  2. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    To clarify, the reporter, Guy Adams, contacted the Co$ spokesrep (probably Pouw, just as you've indicated) for comment while he was in Texas interviewing Mr. Rathbun.
    The Co$ spokesrep refused to respond verbally and demanded Mr. Adams' questions in writing. <---Paper trail tek hard @ work.:thumbsup:
    He sent them the written questions and the written responses were sent to the reporter AND The Independent's office in the UK.
    (British attorneys for Co$ were somehow involved in this back-and-forth period, but it's not a detail shared in the published article.)

    The article was published April 7, 2012.
    (^^^ Per David Miscavige's own court-submitted declaration, he had NO ties to the State of Texas on/anywhere near that date. The spokesrep flew solo. Again. Uh-huh.)

    If anyone has a picture of the RTC-approved map of the US -- the one where Louisiana shares a border with New Mexico -- would you kindly post in on any of the multiple Rathbun v Miscavige threads, please?

    /2nd derail.

    JB <---wishful thinker.
     
  3. Queenmab321

    Queenmab321 Patron Meritorious

    I appreciate what you're saying, SOF, and I certainly never intended to suggest that I believe Scientology dogma or tech to be either beneficial or meaningful in fact. But, after all, the Freezone does exist. What's more, there are numerous members of this board (some, if I'm not mistaken, involved in this very thread) who persist in holding on to a belief in the value and efficacy of Hubbard's tech and still others on ESMB who parrot Hubbard's outlandish sci-fi cosmology. Are all these people still brainwashed? Are they surrounded by fellow victims? caught up in the "framework of the con"?
     
  4. MissWog

    MissWog Silver Meritorious Patron

    10,000??????????????? :lol:
     
  5. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    I was told it was "the exact time, place, form and event?"
     
  6. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    Cheers.

    I have a range of things knocking about in my head, but I'm now not sure if they'd be set upon by the wolves as too banal. :biggrin:

    A lot of people seem to have first hand knowledge of 'regging', but hardly anyone goes into much detail about what the regges say or do - they just say they were regged for $5 grand. How do the regges not get pushed away by the crowd when they obstruct public from leaving an event?

    Others say they were called 30-40 times a day (to donate or attend an event or get them onto a course), but how did they stay polite after the 4th call? What did they say when the 6th different arm of Scientology called them that day to ask for a donation? How did their employers overlook the amount of personal calls? Who has time to take 40 long calls a day alongside working and living their life? Many people get irate after receiving just a few calls from a company, and I can't get my head around how the average Joe could remain calm after being disturbed so many times, for so long.

    As someone with a casual fascination, I find information is spread higgledy-piggledy about the web, much on sites that don't look like they've been updated since 1995. It's difficult, when you have a query, to find a clear answer. Much of the best and most up-to-date information is buried deep within Disqus comments on blogs, which are not very searchable. This board has so many exes and experts that I thought it was a perfect place to make a few observations and ask a few questions. I also look at Why We Protest, but that seems far too harsh an environment if you're not actively protesting.

    What I think people who have lived and breathed this subject for a long time perhaps forget is that not everyone has the same angles of interest as them, nor to the same degree. I'm not a lawyer or psychologist, and I've never walked into one of the buildings or had someone setting up credit I can't afford. Some perhaps forget what it's like to not have an instant grasp of all the terminology, nor the timeline of events in their head and how the cult is structured.
     
  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on



    Good stuff!

    In the link you provided there was this snippet:

    "When newspapers asked the Church what was going on,
    they denied any affiliation with the squirrel busters."



    And also Tony Ortega once reported on his Blog the following:


    "Church of Scientology International lawyer Les Strieber said in court
    that the Squirrel Busters were not “sent” by the church.
    He said they were merely church members exercising their religious rights."
     
  8. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    The reges have a number of tricks to get people to pay, and they use them all. Some of these are what all salespeople do, and some are unique to scientology.

    When you're first pulled into scientology, they try to find your "ruin" -- the one thing that you would change about your life if you only could. Once they know that, they never forget it.

    They are persistant. They decide what you are going to buy that day, and they don't give up. They all have a quota of how much they're supposed to get each week, but they don't easily move on to the next guy if you resist -- they want X number of simoleons, and from YOU.

    Whatever reason you have to NOT pay them, they have an answer for. Too poor? Auditing will improve your earning ability. Going on vacation? Just think how much better it will be without all that CHARGE. Didn't bring your checkbook? We have your bank account number on file; just fill out one of these counter checks. Your credit card is maxed out? We'll ask for a credit limit increase; it's okay, we know what to tell them. You don't want to spend money that belongs to both you and your significant other? We'll call him/her and you can ask if it's okay.

    Don't worry about that new car or TV you want to buy; this is your ETERNITY we're talking about. We KNOW you want to do this, we INTEND for you to do this, and our attitude makes it uncomfortable for you to say no. You're not a panty-waist dilletantte, are you? Of course not; you want to go up the bridge FAST!

    Don't have time to talk to me right now? No problem, we can get this done right away. Sign here, then you can run up to the courseroom and not have to worry about being punished for being late to course. And every tax-deductable donation you make helps forward the expansion of scientology.

    In addition to all of the above, the Thursday at 2 P.M. thing causes reges to get desperate, and they turn up the "intention" even MORE. And I'm sure you've heard about reges charging someone's credit card without the holder's knowledge or consent.

    So why don't more publics just tell the reges to **** off? Ethics is why. Fight back and you'll be sent to the Ethics Officer, never a welcome encounter. Ultimately, you have to be "all the way in" or "all the way out of" scientology, and the big fear is that if you push back too hard, you'll be excommunicated and no longer allowed to do scientology services. I suppose many who didonethingafteranother would rather have did their bridge at a more leisurely pace, but that's one middle ground that's discouraged.

    And unless you're ready to jump ship and go to the freezone, if you do get excommunicated, your dream of going up the bridge is destroyed.

    I'm sure others can add more to this answer.

    Helena
     
  9. Balthasar

    Balthasar Patron Meritorious

    Why not forbid all religions per Amendment. Maybe ditch the Constitution all together because obviously, as it turns out, we are much smarter than the founding fathers!

    Are we really all that stupid needing additional laws to protect us from our imbecile decisions?

    The problem with Amendments and additional laws trying to regulate peoples private concern is, that they are designed decreed by people just as smart or imbecile as the one crying out for it.

    You have to leave people the freedom to make their own decisions and learn from it rather than to "lawfully amend something out of existence".
     
  10. Daisy

    Daisy Patron with Honors

    And reges constantly tell you that any back off you have for paying for a service is just the reactive mind kicking in. I'm sure the OT's get it worse along the lines of "but you're OT and you cant make it go right?"

    One believes all this BS. "yeah, I can be stronger than my case. Ok I quess I can charge it. After all I will become more able and maybe the money will start flowing in.
     
  11. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Forbidding religion without defining it would still leave the same problem.

    I have no problem with the first Amendment allowing religions, so long as that is DEFINED.

    Laws that cannot be enforced are pointless hand-waving.
     
  12. SpecialFrog

    SpecialFrog Silver Meritorious Patron

    I don't think any constitutional change is needed nor any further definition. Just possibly a couple of court rulings clarifying that:

    1) Religious rights of person A don't trump any other rights of person B
    2) Religious rights of parents don't trump any of the other rights of their children (who are not capable of giving meaningful consent to give up any of their rights)
    3) Taxing religions is not a violation of the first amendment. Clearly you can tax the press without it affecting their freedom.

    If you do that and then treat religious organizations the same as any other charities or non-profits (i.e. any tax benefit is based on what they actually do) it really doesn't matter whether Scientology is or isn't a religion.
     
  13. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    I think that would work, for my purposes, as well.
     
  14. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    THAT would be great. I see no reason to grant religions a blanket "tax-free" card. The aspects or parts of any "religion" that actually do charitable work might be granted limited tax-free status, but the rest of it - TAX THEM FULLY. All Christian churches, all Jewish synagogues, all Muslim groups, and ALL SCIENTOLOGY entities! :thumbsup:

    This idea that "religion" is "good" and deserves tax exemptions is an out-dated and archaic concept. :yes:

    The only reason that this has persisted for so long is because of powerful and influential special interests and "religious" government leaders (for example, in the USA, right-wing Christian representatives, Jewish leaders on the political left, etc.).

    I would like to see a REAL "separation of Church and State", where religion of any sort gets ZERO special treatment.

    Politics and religion are so horribly intertwined in the USA (and probably other places too).
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  15. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    That's certainly the best and most detailed insight I've seen. Many thanks for that.

    I have managed to piece together the ethics part of this, but it was the run-up that I could never quite grasp. Without experiencing it, it's difficult to imagine someone so rabidly after your money that they will pursue you until you relent.
     
  16. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    It would be interesting to know if many Scientologists who go bankrupt and who stay in the church ever cite Scientology as the reason, or whether they try to protect the church from bad PR.

    i.e. could there be an interesting stat from bankruptcy forms
     
  17. Sindy

    Sindy Crusader

    100% of those still in, who go bankrupt, would protect the church at all costs. You can add that to your mental stats.
     
  18. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

  19. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Scientology employs the trappings of a religion, and the obscenity of it was when Fred Goldberg, the IRS Commissioner caved to them, granting extraordinary protections under the law that even legitimate religions are denied. Someday this tragic decision will be re-visited, I hope.

    Until then, I'll look to the enlightened models in this regard, of France and Germany, who, unlike our Government, can discern the difference between religion and the bullshit of Scientology.

    Religion as a force for good or evil is a separate discussion.
     
  20. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien