Skeptics and Pseudo-Skeptics of Scientology

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Alanzo, Aug 12, 2019.

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  1. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Quite bluntly it means you bring chaos to an otherwise peaceful environment. If you need further explanation, just ask.
     
  2. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    When I left Scientology, I would never have called it a "cult". I, too, would have called it a "minority religion". That's because I was still wrapped in the belief system.

    Then I started getting educated as to what had happened to me and why.

    And I said "Scientology isn't a cult! Let me prove it!"

    And I asked "What is a cult?"

    And I found out what a cult was by definition. Shocked the hell out of me. By all definitions, by all lists of characteristics, by everything I read, and I read a lot -- Scientology IS A CULT.

    You continue to attack those who know this by claiming it's just a "belief", it's "pseudoscience", it's "emotional bullshit". The evidence, hard-cold evidence, from multiple reputable sources (including your own reference!) all say "Scientology is a cult". It's just a cult. By definition. That's all.

    And I wonder at someone who fights so hard against hard-cold, obvious evidence ... why?

    What is your agenda?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I could say the exact same thing about you.
     
  4. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Beat you to it.

    I said, "This used to be my belief system too".
     
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't think DM is a violent psychopath; his conduct appears normal for an NCO
     
  6. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well, my pa always did say "Don't get in a pissing match with a skunk".
     
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  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Too late. :)
     
  8. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Hello Clay Pigeon

    Long time no see.

    What's an "NCO"?
     
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Alanzo is saying that to get "street cred."

    He doesn't really believe it.
     
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  10. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Why do I want Mike Rinder to expose the criminal activity he engaged in when he worked with David Miscavige for 22 years as CO OSA?

    Because criminal forensics is what will finally take DM out of power.

    You do realize Veda, that the whole time you have been a critic of Scientology - which is a LONG time - you have never changed the fact that David Miscavige is still in power, still doing whatever he wants to Scientologists.

    Your brand of impotence in this matter has been duly noted.
     
  11. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    That means that your brand of impotence doesn't work either. How bout that.:cool:
     
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  12. Emma

    Emma Mother of Dragons Administrator

    I would hardly call Veda impotent. He has been very effective in educating folks here on ESMB about Cults. I have not always gotten on great with Veda, but I have never disrespected him or thought of him as anything other than effective.
     
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  13. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    No.
     
  14. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    First, don't try to use the gimmick of presenting yourself as an adversary of Miscavige. You're using his PR playbook for protecting the Scientology Inc./"Church" operation, and the PR playbook for protecting him and his successors.

    My primary objective was not to dethrone David Miscavige. It's an unrealistic objective as Miscavige is protected by the PINK LEGS (Bolivar PL "tight conspiracy"/buffers/cover up) doctrine, an aspect of which was explained in a 1998 affidavit by Jesse Prince:

    "It is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities. They will spend any amount of money to do this. I know because I was part of it... In fact, the tactic [that] is one of the most coercive used by the Scientology hierarchy [is] to involve members in criminal acts for which they are liable, which then prevents the person from speaking out."

    I've seen Scientology Inc. commit numerous criminal acts, from assault, to illegal imprisonment, to false police reports, to financial crimes - the list goes on. Proving it in a court of law is expensive and often impossible. If it does appear that Scientology Inc. might be in some trouble, then Scientology Inc. simply disowns whoever was caught following its secret instructions. Cute, huh?


    The only action that might penetrate Scientology's protective buffers and protective tactics would be another, and very thorough, series of FBI raids and there are no signs that the current (itself, sadly, corrupt and overwhelmed) FBI has any inclination to do so.

    And, if such raids were to occur, there would be the matter of Scientology's fraudulently obtained "non profit religious" status, and there is no indication that the current (also corrupt and compromised) USA inland revenue (IRS) has any inclination to review that status.

    My, and others, primary objective was to alert people as to what Scientology actually is. To thoroughly describe it in all its aspects, including the "good" parts (which are used to lure) - To provide a kind of warning label.

    Also, my, and others, objective, was to help people extricate themselves, mentally, and sometimes physically, from Scientology Inc., and to recover from its effects and influence.

    I, and many others, have been quite successful at that.

    ESMB, created and courageously led by Emma, has been, and continues to be, a major source of help for others.

    ESMB and Emma are near the top of the list of "enemy" targets for Scientology Inc. Eliminating ESMB would be a win for Scientology Inc. Destroying, or making inaccessible, its archives, would be a gigantic win.

    I hope you're not doing anything to assist Scientology Inc. in that regard while pretending to do other things.
     
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  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    You are so tiring.

    I studied social science in college. It's a subject filled with highly trained and honest people who have tried their best to study cultures and sub-cultures, and to do this in an objective way. There have been spectacular failures in the past, such as with Aum. But in the main, these people study this part of life so that we can better understand the dynamics between the group and the individual in our tribal species.

    Of course, cults, as sub-cultures, belong to their field of study.

    One of the things that got me out of the toxic bullshit of anti-Scientology was to step back from the monolithic view of Scientology that you continually express, and to question the assumptions I'd been operating on for so long as an anti.

    This resulted in my generally calming down about Scientology, no longer fearful of the DANGER I felt whenever someone might give scientology a pass.

    But it also sharpened my focus on exactly where the problem is in Scientology:

    INT BASE

    Int Base is where ALL the criminality and abuse comes from in Scientology, and ALWAYS has. The farther you get from Int Base, the less criminal and abusive Scientology is.

    So I now see that the target for correction is INT BASE.

    Who runs Int Base?

    David Miscavige.

    Your problem, Veda, is that if someone should disagree with your view - no matter their reasoning - then they are an OSA Agent.

    Sit back. Relax. Have a creme soda.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Before I bail on this thread there should be some discussion about Hubbard's "early years" and the roles that Jack Parsons, Aleister Crowley, OTO and Sex Magick played in Hubbard's development. The official COS cover story is that Hubbard was a secret government agent sent in to infiltrate subversive groups but he married Sara Northrup while he was still married to Polly Grubb. He had his 3rd child by Sara. Sara was the sister of Jack Parson's wife and Jack was having sex with Sara also. This period has been well documented as being a very hedonistic lifestyle. The COS tries to scrub Sara from history and even shoops her out of photos but the divorce records are online. If Hubbard was a government agent then he either went off his orders or went in-character way too eagerly.

    Hubbard's Affirmations read to me like someone who is trying to achieve the total amoralism embodied in the OTO's governing rule: "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".

    The origins of New Age trace directly back to Theosophy and mysticism. By any definition OT III is demonology and exorcism.

    The Scientology cross is an obvious ripoff of the Golden Dawn Cross:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Cross

    If Hubbard didn't want to be associated with the Rosicrucians then maybe he should have gone with something else. Surely an all knowing Hubbard wouldn't have missed the similarity.

    Here's the thing. Alanzo seems to want to view Hubbard and Scientology as though there was some kind of clean break or defining moment when all of Hubbard's involvement with real cults and the actual occult stopped and had absolutely no influence on the development of Scientology but a close study of Scientology, how the organization is run and how they behave shows many similarities.

    Alanzo seems to want us to be intellectual about Scientology, to separate what we have actually experienced from a scholarly unbiased study much like professors who advocate socialism and communism downplay the deaths of 80 million people or more in the last century due to the wars, tyranny, famine and failures of socialism and communism. It was just misunderstood and not applied the right way. They violated KSW for socialism and communism but next time they will get it right. They contort the language so badly it's like the Tower of Babel and people can't conduct a sensible conversation. He who controls the language controls the debate.

    My experience was this. My friends and co-workers disappeared in the night only to reappear on the RPF dressed in dark blue boiler suits and a dirty rag on their arm. Sometimes there was a goldenrod ethics order issued with some kind of damning explanation, often there was nothing and we weren't supposed to ask. They couldn't talk to me unless I spoke to them first. People I personally had gotten into Scientology now sleeping under guard on a thin bunk mattress on the basement floor eating leftovers. Not just 1 or 2, or 4 or 5 but hundreds of people. They would blow (escape) and more would be RPFed to replace them. This was happening at Flag and Saint Hill and the Cedars Complex. We were told that it was a voluntary program based on LRH orders and tech. They were co-auditing Expanded Dianetics to get rid of deep evil intentions - past life service facsimiles that they didn't even know they had. Sure, they tossed a woman under the bus for making incorrect e-meter reads that got most of these people sent to the RPF. We were told it was a mistake, a dark phase in Scientology's history but it was a new religion and things were bound to go wrong sometimes. Hubbard told us heavy ethics was bad and we all had rights under the only workable judicial system on the planet. We had recourse - Inquiries, Boards of Investigation, Hearings, Comm-Evs by our peers, the Data Series was applied to find the correct Who and the Why. We had the Admin Scale that set priorities - Goals, Purposes, Programs, Orders. We were so organized that the only way something could go wrong is if enemies deliberately wanted to destroy us or someone just did not follow Source. But the reality was that people were often summarily sent to the RPF by people operating on LRH orders on LRH missions without any recourse.

    Years later I'm out of the Sea Org and I'm reading about The Hole. Now it makes sense - the cruelty was deliberate under LRH and his protege has built on and perfected the plan. Then I hear about the creation of the RPF on the ships and tossing people in The Chain Locker. So THAT was where this all began! It's clear to me that all of this punishment and cruelty was coming from Hubbard's mind all along. He is literally applying his most senior policy "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". How can anyone trust anything that comes from a mind like that? How do you intellectualize that into something like a minority religion or sub-culture while trying to say that cult is some kind of useless nondescript derogatory expression? I suppose there are people who got into Scientology, had wins but never witnessed the abuse or are so indoctrinated that like the RPF everything is a voluntary technical program to them and only greatly misunderstood by the larger culture.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  17. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Holy crap! You are so insightful! Here I was missing the "real who" but your Data Evaluation has uncovered the "Real Who"!!!! :buzzin:

    Who is responsible for no "Releases", no "Clears" and no "OTs"? David Miscavige!!!1
    Who is responsible for creating the "RPF" policies written by Hubbard? David Miscavige!!!!!!!!!!
    Who is responsible for creating the "Fair Game" policies written by Hubbard? David Miscavige!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Who is responsible for it all? David freaking Miscavige!!!!!!!!!!

    So, with your "Correct Who" we can all stop bad-mouthing poor, misunderstood Hubbard, stop bad-mouthing the wonderful (not a cult!) Church of Scientology and ... and ... :shrug:

    ... what's the next step Alanzo? What is your "Correct Handling"?

    :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
     
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  18. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Never said anything like this. Otherwise, a well-crafted argument.

    I was familiar with Crowley and Gnosticism before Scientology. And Scientology's gnostic viewpoint was one of my initial draws. Elaine Pagels in her book Beyond Belief clarified my search in my early 20's very well for me. The difference between Eastern Religions and Western Religions were their routes to salvation. Eastern religions taught that your route to salvation was through Knowledge (gnosis). Western religions taught that your route to salvation was through faith.

    I had chosen knowledge. I'd studied TM and was in the first stage of studying Buddhism when I encountered Scientology. It was the cornfields in the 1980's. There weren't many books on Buddhism available to me at the time and Scientology seemed like the way to go for me.

    To this day, at that time of my life, I know it was the right move for me to have gotten myself involved in Scientology. Of the 16 years I was involved, I probably stayed 6 years too long.

    As far as your description of Scientology from your experience, here's my answer:

    I spent my time in missions. You sound like you spent most of your time in the SO.

    The SO was not the "elite" in Scientology. They were the fanatics. They were vetted as the Scientologists who would most easily comply with orders with no backflash. They were not the "causative beings". They were the sheep.

    And the Int Base? They were the worst of the worst.

    The overwhelming majority of Scientologists were never in the SO, and never would be.

    The overwhelming majority of Scientologists never harmed anyone, and never would.

    The abuse and criminality in Scientology originated with Hubbard, and continue with Miscavige. But both Hubbard and Miscavige had a very difficult time making ALL scientologists into criminals. In fact it is impossible.

    My untested theory: Scientology is such an authoritarian structure that if you cut off the criminal at the head, you will cause the criminality to greatly diminish, if not cease completely.

    That decapitation can not be achieved through lawsuits.

    I believe it must be achieved through criminal prosecution.

    The guys who know all the crimes who are not Miscavige?

    Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

    And Marty's not talking any more.

    Mike Rinder has NEVER TALKED.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  19. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Ah! And there it is! After Alanzo discovers the "Correct Who" he explains the "Correct Handling":
    Someone (not Alanzo) should do something about it.​

    All fixed!
     
  20. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    "Non Commisioned Officer"

    Think Beetle Bailey and the Sergeant; the "Top Kick" of his company. DM's fisticuffs are standard tech for a Top Kick but not for a Commanding Officer

    Nice to hear from you Alanzo with an A not an O...