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Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by ILove2Lurk, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    . . .
    You may not have seen these two posts published on an obscure website. I hadn't.

    I can confirm this. I knew Mike and his wife. He was an ordinary young man previously attending
    a Midwestern college, who got caught up in something way above his pay grade. Nothing more to it.

    A bit of a smoking gun . . . well, maybe a smoking derringer. :coolwink:

    Another person who was there on the ground and at the top, confirming what many of us have suspected or known for years. :whistling:
    Leland likes this.
  2. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


  3. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks for that. Theta always makes my day.
  4. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I wish someone would make a collection of all these recent comments by Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.

    I don't doubt that some things have remained unspoken, but there has been some genuine truth-telling and, I, for one, appreciate it.

    Sure, it was known to some of us before, most of it for decades, but Marty and Mike reach an audience that wouldn't have listened to any one else.
  5. Dart Smohen

    Dart Smohen Patron

    Well, there are a couple of issues here.

    "Billy Blowdown" clearly is a believer. I doubt if he ever met Ron. Like virtually every other brainwashed cult slave he trots out the propaganda spoon-fed to him.

    I, on the other hand, knew Ron & MSH for MANY years, I worked with them, dined with them and they were family friends. I also know that Ron directly and personally organised break-ins, particularly the WHO in Switzerland. I was there when he personally briefed the missionaries who carried out the burglary.

    So, do not tell me he knew nothing about Operation "Snow White". Ok, he may have tried to distance himself from any direct involvement but FOR SURE he was consulted about it. This was far too huge to be left to the GO alone.

    The GO B1 dept arranged several break-ins to offices to obtain files on Scn and detractors. How do I know this? I used to process the senior GO staff.

    Now we come to the matter of TWATH program. The public display was all about a warm and fuzzy feelgood approach.

    In reality it was designed as a CONTROL program. What happens is that Hubbard's rules for a happy life were to be taken on-board and adopted as your own. Sounds simple and ok, doesn't it?

    However what actually happens is that the individual drops their own rules for happy living and takes on Ron's rules. This is a subtle shift from being self-determined to other-determined. Part of the processing requires the individual to have a valence shift.
    Now they are entrapped. Therefore when directed by a control party (Reg, EO etc) they are more compliant and willing to involve themselves more.

    The " False Purpose" Rundown follows and the person is locked in their mental cage.They are "dedicated", will sell their assets, join the SO, give money to IAS and in general be slaves.

    The other trap is all about Status & Identity. Ron used this to entrap staff into an identity which was not their own creation.
    So, now we have these mugs giving all their money to IAS to "upgrade" their status. It is a huge money machine and gives almost nothing in exchange for all that dosh. In the States individuals can write off donations against taxes.

    It becomes very difficult to break the programming. These slaves are forbidden to associate with anyone who is not considered a member of the cult. They are forbidden to read papers, watch programs or read material which might disagree with their mind control.

    However, Alan Walter had a lot of success in getting them to look by asking them " DO YOU REALLY,REALLY

    All of the abuse and suffering they have been subjected to tends to trigger and the person starts to LOOK at what has been going on. Whenever the cult sent people to "handle" Alan, they almost one for one quit.

    The parable of the Magic suit of clothes applies.
  6. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Thanks for your excellent post!

    Re: William Blowdown.

    Personally, I don't trust that guy "Billy Blowdown". I have read his posts for some years and am now convinced that he has some serious BPC and he is stuck in an unflat incident, as described in Ron's book "A HISTORY OF MAN" under the subsection "Poe's Implant".
  7. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Asked of Mike Rinder on his blog [excerpt] :

    When you were the main spokesperson, how did you handle press questions
    about Ron’s promised return in 20-25 years to resume his work?

    Mike Rinder says:
    August 22, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    I was never asked that question. I guess in some respects I believed that would be the case, though I never saw anything written by him that specifically stated that he would return in a different body, though there were certainly rumors about him having left instructions about how he could be identified. Perhaps they were true.

    Do I think he has the capability of returning? Not in those terms. I believe that one lives for more than one life with more than one body. But the fact is, after this long, he has not “returned” as “Ron in a new body.”

    And I place great credence in what Sarge said about the later years of his life.
    There are simply too many other facts that align to the notion that he was NOT in fact in good shape and certainly was not “causatively discarding his body to continue research that would be hindered by a body.”

    If this was the case, there would have been a LOT more detailed hat write ups and turnovers and farewell messages — even a film or video. A lot of things I took as “gospel” from the time I was young concerning the infallibility of LRH I no longer see that way. Including this idea that he could knowingly postulate a future body and identity and return with full recall of his last lifetime.

    Asked of Mike Rinder on his blog [excerpt] :

    What’s the back story? Why did management cover up LRH’s apparent failure
    to deliver on many of his more hyperbolic OT promises . . . and from what I
    can tell even achieve them himself? Why lie to all of us from 1986 on? Seems
    like there was an enormous conspiracy of silence and a forwarding of a patently
    untrue LRH mythology. The lies told were an unthinkable betrayal.

    Mike Rinder says:
    April 21, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    Marty’s books and blog have covered this pretty extensively. There was a hidden data line inside the church too. I was not aware that these materials didnt exist until after I left.

    Miscavige wanted them so he would have a carrot to hold out. But he also could NOT afford to say “Sorry folks, I know LRH said OT IX and X were ready and there was a Grade Chart with OT X1 to XV on it, but they don’t exist” as it would have caused a revolt. In order to maintain his position he has had to pretend to be fully in alignment with LRH and the ONE carrying out his wishes and intention. It has been a slow process to convince the masses that he is the new Messiah. And now it is valuable to him to appear to have something that people want but cannot have “yet” …

    Bolding in passages above is mine.

    If we're to take Mike and Marty's various statements over the years on good faith . . . that they did not learn about many of the "deep secrets and betrayals" until after they had left the COS and begun reading blogs, then we're left with a conspiracy of two: Pat Broeker and DM.

    After 1988 or so, we're then left with a conspiracy of one: DM personally holding all the secrets close to his own chest.

    Or so I've been told. :unsure: :unsure: :whistling:

  8. Orglodyte

    Orglodyte Patron with Honors

    As good a candidate as I've seen for the "one-shot clear." Would be a good protest sign for staff to see. I'll save it myself for just the right moment. Thanks, Alan and Dart.
  9. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Thanks for the timesaving cut/paste from Mike's blog!

    One thing jumped out at me, like a bad BT being shot out of a volcano. . .

    Asked, not answered. He just absolutely "rabbited" from that question. One of those Hubbard PR-Drills where you answer a question not asked? Cognitive dissonance? Doesn't know the answer? Doesn't want to find out the answer quite yet? Knows the answer but doesn't want to "go out gradient" with the Indie Scientologists who religiously read his blog? LOL

    Asking a not-yet-fully-decompressed Scientologist that question is like "getting in good 2-way-com" with a radical Islamic suicide bomber-- and asking them why, if Islam is a religion of peace, did Muhammed order the murder of over 40 people whom he didn't care for?

    One thing I find consistently true about people who use Scientology to any degree is that, to that degree, they are deceptive with others--and ultimately themselves.

    That said, I actually really enjoy Mike's blog and believe he provides a most valuable, cool and entertaining value for anyone interested in Scientology for any reason. Some of his stuff is absolutely hilarious, insightful and very witty.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
  10. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    What forum is Mike posting on here?
  11. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Ditto on last paragraph.
  12. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

  13. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

  14. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    GREAT STUFF, Dart. :thumbsup: Lots of real meat and potatoes in all that you wrote. :clap:

    I've Posted on all this before on ESMB...Having known and personally interacted with El Ron (albeit, I never dined with Hisself), had first hand knowledge of just how much of the plethora and minutia of information Hisself was informed about re: every aspect of Scn Operations, and having been in the "Inner Circle" on the "Prom", "A" and "B" Decks during the time that Snow White was going on I am 100% CERTAIN that El Ron knew EXACTLY what was going on and had Hisself's hands all over it. :yes:

    Hell, even I knew some shreds of information about Snow White and I wasn't GO or CS G personnel (I was Pers Off Staff during that time). :coolwink:


    PS: The big driver for me walking away was that I didn't want my children brought up in and live in a Scn World and nor did I.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
  15. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Once again let me say that I think that Rat and Rin are very valuable and effective at blowing a hole below the water line in the Cof$ and I think it's good thing. Now that they appear to coming out from under "The Spell" that's all the better in helping others "Wake Up". :thumbsup:

    However--having known and interacted with both of them--I've got a jaundiced eye and my personal ax to grind. They ostensibly initially left the Cof$ because DM wasn't "pure" and was "harming" the "Tech". They've come a long way over the past few years but I'm just not ever gonna be a "Fan". They want--especially Marty--for Folks to "Groove" on them, their "Take" and support them--morally, emotionally, philosophically and financially--based on their "Persona" while in Scn and then trashed, obfuscated, lied about and ignore the very people whose guts, integrity and sacrifice made possible and provided the facts, perspective and truth that fostered their awakening, hacked out the path and blazed the trail they are now following, in their way, and "showing others 'The Way'".

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    that's about what I figured. The ole man sure as hell knew what was going on. For he created PTS/SP policy/tech in 1965. Along with O/W's and sec checks.

    He knew what was going on even back in 1965, aka KSW policy. :roflmao:
  17. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    IL2K...Glad you brought all this up again so well at this time.:yes:

    I've been chewing on your OP and this Post and this is what's banging around between me ears.

    I know most of what I Post these days is either redundant and prefaced with, "I Posted this before" or a Link to a Post I made years before. :melodramatic:

    To my knowledge, Marty, Miscavaige and Rinder did not have extensive "face time" with El Ron and, IIRCC, Mary never had any "face time" with Hisself.
    all three certainly had certainly had extensive dispatch and messenger traffic with Hisself, but none of the truly "knew" Hisself. :no:

    That's why the Penomanon/Challenge, Mystic, Dart, Alan, Cowboy, etc Posts about El Ron on ESMB are, IMO, very important for Folks to read to get a "feel" for, insight into and develop their own personal context for Hisself.

    As I have Posted before (Oy Vey, here I go again!) the Hana, Tonja, Mayo, Douglas, Armstrong, Sarge etc stuff available on the Net (and linked to numerous times on this Board) are priceless first hand accounts re El Ron that I deem (or know first hand) to not only be highly credible are also "In Concert" with, but frame, enrich and corroborate what has been originally Posted on ESMB by the aforementioned.

    Rinder makes the point "Management" (he and others) did not know the "Truth" that DM and Broeker knew. I buy that 100%. However, they also did not know the "Truth" re El Ron that above mentioned Old Guard knew. Rinder, Marty and the rest of "Management" didn't know the "Truth" because they didn't really know Hisself and the majority of Folks that truly knew Hisself were Persona Non Grata by '83 or so and the remainder were so mind fucked that they couldn't Grok, come to terms with are even have a transient thought about what the did actually for real know and were so "Under The Spell" that they were possessed with the idea that if they ever said anything but "good" about Hisself they would "Lose their eternity forever" and El Ron would "Forsake" them.

    The Bold/Italicized part of your Post, IL2K, really got me to "chewing my cud". I can't walk in M&M's shoes but, I walked a lot miles in my shoes--shoulder to shoulder with others walking in their shoes, personally following El Ron in Hisself's Majick "Boots in the Sky".

    Are we left to assume that Marty, Rinder et al would have never done what Broeker & DM did? :confused2: Think about it...What would they have done if they had inherited the Majick "Boots in the Sky"?

    I dunno...Probably a useless question and moot point.


    PS: Quite honestly IMO the last Folks that were actually capable of, had the vision for and tried, for real, to "Fix" Scn, "Salvage" the "Tech" and "Reform" the Cof$ were eviscerated by the Children of the Corn, PB/DM/M&M & their "Management" cohorts and El Ron, Hisself--and, they were "Winning" all the way.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  18. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    As to ILove2Lurk's opening post reveals the point that:

    Well, he is right.

    Meisner was not a plant but was turned by the abuse of the Cof$ on him.

    When Meisner became aware that the FBI was onto him and he tried to handle within the "org" . . . he found they were not supportive but instead behaved as his enemy. He was even held against his will and at one time actually handcuffed to a bed in a motel to control him. His fear was that he would be betrayed to take the fall alone with no help.

    When I did my "op" for Diane, and spoke with the "pertinent Special Agent in Charge" of the FBI raid, I learned that the reason they knew where to go and what to obtain to secure and how to play the "raid on a 'church'" (he did emphasis the notion that they had to recognize it as a Choich for public PR reasons) . . . he told me that Meinser had turned and acted to save himself as a cooperating witness.

    YOu have the reason for his turning above.

    The Choich are masters at aliening their supporters . . . to be noted is the point that Jane Kember taught me that lesson in the 1970's when she ran shit scared when the enemies of the Choich I was sent into Belgium to investigate at a conference run by them accused my company of working for the Choich . . .

    The lesson learned on that occasion was that they do NOT stand by their friends and supporters . . . you become collateral damage for the "greater good."


    . . .
  19. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    I wonder about that. Maybe you can help me out.

    Here's a post I found on Marty's, which I thought was pretty interesting. Someone asked him pretty directly if he was involved in the BIG LIE that was covered up for nearly thirty years. Though Marty allowed the post through, he made no comment about it. I notice that's his MO with certain direct questions that he presumably should know the answers for.

    Forever Lurker August 16, 2014 at 3:22 pm

    Marty, at this point in your voyage out . . . would you be willing to name names of all the Int Base/SO executives who knew the truth and specific details about LRH’s final months and yet had the unthinkable gall to invent the death shore story in 1986 and participate in a nearly thirty-year cover-up? That tight-knit cabal?

    Now personally, I view Sarge as an innocent and loyal friend who saw what he saw and then left the SO. (And thank you Sarge for revealing what you knew in Larry’s and Marty’s books.)

    Jesse Prince knew some of the story and went public about it in a short comment on the Internet in the 90’s.

    But who were the people in the Watergate-style conspiracy that hid the truth from us publics to keep the show going all these years? Broeker? Mithoff? Who else? And is that why they’re all still locked up and being held incommunicado? To keep the conspiracy from being more fully brought to light?

    I guess somewhere in my psyche I still have a need to find out so I can fully wash my hands of the subject. To somehow resolve WHO exactly it was behind the lies that induced me to keep the faith and waste so many years of my life, burn up so much money, and miss out on so many life experiences (like having children of my own).

    Would you be wiling to name the names in this deplorable conspiracy and cover-up? What they knew; when they knew it?

    It would help me (and maybe others) to put things to bed and move on.

    We might be owed this much.

    Well, this poster brings up a good point actually.

    Should we even care anymore? Well, I do a little cuz this is one of my hobbies, "pulling strings," if you will.

    Now I don't know Jesse Prince and have never met him. He apparently did a 20-hour interview in 1998 where he revealed quite a few what I initially thought were crazy and unbelievable stories. Sixteen years later many of those unbelievable stories have been told and documented by others and are now part of the canon of COS Internet history and lore.

    JP Interview 230-page PDF:

    I think Jesse held Marty's post in the RTC prior to his leaving the SO, so he was in the inner circle and in the know. Now Jesse claims, among many other things, that:

    • Executives Rick & Vicki Aznaran knew details about LRH's greatly diminished mental and physical state at his death and prior
    • DM, Annie and Pat Broeker obviously knew the truth
    • Ray Mithoff and Norman Starkey were and are in the know
    • Marty was in the room when Mary Sue was browbeaten into signing away her rights and inheritances
    Many other interesting details too numerous to mention are revealed in the interviews. Again, many of these stories have been independently documented by others in recent years.

    Perhaps Jesse's forthcoming book will fill in the blanks, if it ever actually gets published. Given a choice of selling a few thousand copies to the critic universe versus taking a six-figure payoff NOT to publish it if it contains REALLY scandalous stuff . . . well, we'll see. :confused2:

    Like the poster FL above, I too think there was a tight-knit coterie of conspirators who knew the truth (LRH's unremarkable end-of-life and human demise, no upper OT levels, tech largely flawed, etc., etc.) and chose not to speak all these years to the personal and financial detriment of many innocent and decent public and staff.

    It's just too easy to slip out the side door and say "I didn't know about it until I read it on the Internet."

    Not accusing . . . but I just wonder.

    I know I stood up and got pretty loud and declarative with Int Mgmt in and around 1978-80 when I first suspected big problems, false promises, and shady financial moves. I wasn't about to con others. But that's me.

    Maybe none of this matters anymore. Maybe even posting about it is beating a really dead, dead horse. :melodramatic:

    I guess I'm just the curious type and can afford the time to ponder this. :wink2:

    That or I'm really in need of professional help and don't know it!
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  20. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    I'm with you on this ILove2Lurk,

    I never tried to get anyone in....because I couldn't see my way clear of "setting another person up" for what I'd been through. I got one person in in my 27 years in scamology....and she was a niece of an OT 5 I knew....and was asked to do it.

    But more to the point.....How is it possible so few people knew stuff....I can possible see in the later years....but earlier....all the orders going back and forth....the projects....the results or what dones...going back....the notes....the new stuff being released....there MUST have been pilots and guinea pigs.....All kinds of information had to have been floating around....and rumors too.

    I just don't see how it is possible that only a couple people were "in on it."

    That post someone made on another thread that a 20 year old kid put together the "Pain and Sex" HCOB from notes........HOW is it possible that this type of stuff wasn't more known?