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Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by ILove2Lurk, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Robert Vaughn Young knew about the death shore story.

    Part 6 of the 1999 BBC program 'Secret Lives' about L. Ron Hubbard:


    AT 2:08, Robert Vaughn Young tells of Hubbard's final years. At 3:13, RV Young describes the invention of the shore story re. Hubbard's death.

    Young left Scientology in 1989.
  2. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you IL2K. I was not clear and chose my words poorly.

    I'm 100% certain that, at the time of Hisself's death, Rat & Rin did not know the full truth re El Ron that Broeker, DM and a few others knew. However, there was ample evidence that for a number of years Hisself was "loosing it" to many that actually knew El Ron. Having been in the "Inner Circle" at one time and knowing DM, Marty and Rinder I find it completely implausible that Rat and Rin were completely unaware that something was "Rotten in Denmark" and they were a part of it. Whether or not Rat and Rin actually knew the full story when they were in is, IMO, impossible to know without their candor and, personally, I don't trust Marty at all and Rinder not much.

    As far as a conspiracy of silence goes, that's been SOP for Scn Senior "Management" from the get go (and I was there fairly early on after the get go).

    However, it's one thing to "Front" for El Ron and quite another to "Front" for DM, IMHO. DM's game was to usurp and wear the Majick Boots and Rat and Rin went along with it, supported it and actively forwarded it to "Protect" El Ron's Image and Legacy. Marty, even in his latest "revelations" still craftily forwards the idea that he is the smartest, bestest, sanest "Tech" guy there ever was and Rinder is craftily forwarding the image as the "greatest" PRO and most honest PRO in the history of the Cof$.

    Rat and Rin were at the "Top of the Food Chain" and held dominion over nearly every other fellow SO Member. It was only after they fell from grace that they "saw the light" and left. Once some folks buy that there is Pie in the Sky, everyone else around them has as well and they find themselves at the top of the Pie in the Sky business they'll do whatever it takes to protect the Pie, sell the Pie to others and hold on to their Position and Status.

    As I posted years ago on ESMB, El Ron realized in the early 50's that Folks that bought that there was Pie in the Sky would keep buying "something new", "the latest thing", "the "Tech" breakthrough that would make the Pie even better, easier to get and more "flavorful" when you finally, someday "Got It".

    DM's been operating of that program for nearly 30 years; Marty was operating off that program and recently switched to selling his own Pie; Rinder was operating that program and I'm not sure yet what Pie he's currently selling.

    Sad thing to me is that, IMHO, none of them gives flyin' F about all the Forever Lurkers out there and aren't shedding any tears that there never was, and never will be, Pie in the Sky.

    There just gonna continue to...sell, Sell, SELL!!

    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  3. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    View attachment 8141 Face, you've done the impossible. :biggrin:

    You've somehow refined the theories, speculations from the books, the blogs down into a single sentence (à la the mythical tale in the original "Excalibur").

    Whittled it all down to a cogent, easy-to-get-your-wits-around explanation.

    Probably the best one-sentence distillation of the whole kit and caboodle.

    So brilliant and hilarious at the same time. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :yes:

    I'm supremely amused and enlightened! :yes:

    (And hungry for a slab of pie now!) :roflmao:
  4. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    Pie in the Sky
    Tone 40

    Tone 20

    (Tone 0)


    Or just doing OT TR-0?


    Or possibly OP TR-0?
    Operating Pieface TR-0

  5. Edwardo

    Edwardo Patron with Honors

    Rat and Rin? Fac, your dehumanizing nicknames do you no credit.

    And in my estimation, neither do your sneers at their characters and motives.

    I enjoy their websites and admire what they've done since they left the church. If it weren't for Marty Rathbun's site I might well still be in there myself.
  6. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I knew Mike Rinder back in the GO days and worked with a number of people who worked closely with him. Mike was raised in Scn and spent most of his life in the SO. He didn't question things. He just assumed Hubbard was right and knew what he was doing and somehow lived and worked with that cognitive dissonance every day. Weird as that sounds, that's how it was for him. He didn't question Hubbard's authority, character or the "workability" of Scientology.

    It seems Mike is really working through that now and I'm pleased to see that. I always had faith in him. On a personal basis, Mike Rinder had heart and compassion for individuals when he was in a personal or private position to do so and when it didn't conflict with his SO training.

    I can't even begin to imagine what it must be for him to be going through this stuff now, all over again, but intelligently evaluating it. It must be one hell of a nightmare. That he can only take it on in small bits somehow makes sense to me. I really appreciate that he is doing it, though, and hope he can forgive himself so that he can get through the cognitive dissonance barriers and tell us the whole story when he is able to piece it together himself.

    Thanks, Mike Rinder. Marty - you too (but I expect a lot more detail from you yet). :thumbsup:
  7. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    I worked with Mike and he was, as you say, a regular SO member. It is also important to remember that he was an SO equivalent of a "trust fund baby" - he had family on the outside well off who supported him. That makes a helluva difference in how anyone views their time in the SO. It means that Mike never had to try to make SO pay, especially less than 'full' SO pay actually stretch to cover things like soap, razor blades etc.

    I agree on the fact that he seems to be working through stuff - and to be honest I have been surprised at his progress. I have to say that while I liked Mike when he was in and enjoyed his company I never noticed any of this "compassion" you are referring to. But there again compassion was not something I can say I saw a lot of in the SO from anyone.

    And you have touched on something here that I admit I had not taken fully into account when thinking about Mike and Marty.

    Scientologists in general, and very much more so for SO members, are appallingly ignorant. Wilfully so. We spent a large part of our time ignoring information, self censoring and thought blocking with abandon. We tended to get "instant hatted" on something and figure that we knew what needed knowing . We got a briefing giving an "overview" and figured that was everything to do with the subject. It is horrifying to read sometimes (like with the recent Wendy Honnour counseling fiasco) what ex Scientologists THINK they know and what they ACTUALLY know. As an aside I have noticed that people who worked in actually producing promo in the CofS ( Lulubelle for example) did have skills that did work in the real world.

    What this means when we get out is that we do not have a clue what we do not know. First of all we thought we knew everything that was worth knowing. Getting smacked over the head with reality is a brutal first step.

    But I was thinking about how this affected us when we were in (and consequently for when we were out) and let's take the corporate maze that is the church as an example.

    Let's bear in mind the following - neither Miscavige, Rinder or Rathbun ever went to college. AFAIK none of them graduated high school. I am not accusing any of them of being dumb - merely pointing out that they are uneducated. What is telling is that neither of them have sought to get any sort of formal education since getting out. A lot of exes did (myself included) and I do think it helps get out of the mindset to actually go to college and acquire real life skills.

    Two of the main technicians behind the corp sort out were our much missed friend Denise Brennan and recently passed on Lyman Spurlock. They at least had had fairly extensive legal training/experience before the great "sort out" and "all clear". As can be seen in many of Denise's wonderful write ups - she knew what it was that they were trying to do and how and why.

    I am not at all sure that Miscavige, Rinder or Rathbun ever did. I am sure that they got briefings and CSWs and reports but the simple fact that NONE of them have a clue about the law - apart from the fact that it was nowhere near as good as "scientology justice" - means that none of them ever understood the nuts and bolts of what was being done. And they probably still do not. Sure Miscavige knows that he has all the needed undated resignations in his hands if needs them. But just because he is holding a "dead man's switch" doesn't mean he understands explosives or circuits. He knows enough to pull the trigger. And if he needs more than that - why, he'll call in another lawyer!

    Personally I think one of the biggest confusions that Marty and Mike have yet to go through is the very real idea that they had no fucking clue what they were doing when they were in. And they are now, finally, maybe, starting to get a remnant of a clue.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  8. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

  9. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    Those of us who were part of the mass exodus in early 80s don't share your view of "Rat and Rin". Had you been a part of the Independent Field, and had you experienced the outrageous harrassment that Marty & Mike perpetrated on us, you might not be so forgiving of them.
    The harrassment that Monique Rathbun is sueing COS for is the same crap that Marty supervised when he was RTC.
  10. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Yes . . . Phenom and Face are both very justified in their views.

    When you have your whole life disrupted, connections, plans and well being destroyed, all based on the insane idea that all you stand for and/or what they think you are must be destroyed . . . then you have got to recognize the person doing that shit is at that time insanely evil . . .

    It does not matter that they were deluded and under the spell of the greatest liar and con-artist the planet is ever likely to see . . . to want to vent such evil upon your fellows for no other reason than they want to go their own way, speaks for itself.

    That's the stuff of why we are bombing the shit out of the throat-cutting ISIS Jihadists . . .
  11. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    You said it better than me, Rog. Thank you.
  12. Edwardo

    Edwardo Patron with Honors

    Most of the garrison missionaires we had (early-mid 80s) were either (1) really nice or (b) polite but stressed. However there was one missionaire who was mean to me when I was on staff. Had me make him cups of tea until I got up the nerve to refuse. Threatened me with violence another time (which so upset me I blew a little while later).

    Mild stuff in the overall scheme of things, but believe me I remembered him and what happened, and I was pretty damn frosty when I met him years later after we'd both left staff.

    The question of how forgiving to be to people who once belonged to bad groups and /or did bad things to us or others is a thorny one.
  13. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader


    Yes, your point on how forgiving to be can be "thorny" is well taken.

    For me, it has been resolved as both a philosophical question and as a matter of technical address to how do I personally want to live my life.

    What is known in all philosophies and decent religions and the truly workable spiritual technologies we practice is that, to hang onto hurt and the hatred heaped onto us and to not "let it go" by "forgiveness" is to only poison ourselves.

    Indeed, in one of the "earlier universes" delineated in Alan Walter's book "Gods in Disguise" is an existence we shared wherein we retaliated with equal venom and hatred against the evil done us with the result that we ourselves turned into and became that "evilness" we opposed that had earlier affected us.

    I have spent some months handling that area of case . . . thus I can personally vouch for the truth that, to not "forgive" and to hang up in the hurt the shitheads did you in order to make them guilty for what they have done, is to in fact do yourself in!!!

    Thus, the idea of "forgiveness" has some nuances to it.

    The key to success in things like this is to get free of the shitheads, don't hate them nor attempt to retaliate against them except in the case of the need to protect self, and let them do themselves in based on their own behavior . . . . BUT, having said that, ethically and morally, we do have a duty to ourselves and our fellows to recognize the behavior of these characters who behave evilly and to warn all those we would want to protect and to also protect ourselves personally from further hurt by them.

    Thus, to me, I find the key to "forgiveness" is to let the shit go, let it rest where it belongs with the uglies who would want to put it on you or others, and to not turn hateful in any of your efforts to handle the relationship or in protecting yourself and others in the future.

    It indeed is one of the mechanisms of the evil among us to attempt to incite you to the level that you turn evil against them (by reproducing their evil action on them in retaliation or an attempt to handle them) and thereby, you are trapped by the trap they have set for you and brought you down.

    The sad thing about it is that they do not know this is an involuntarily replicated action on an unknowing reactive basis by them . . . and they further are not aware that they are by these actions actually doing themselves in due to their denials.

    There is a lot more I could write on this, but this should do for now.

  14. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    Edwardo, I'm not sure that it is a question of " Forgiveness" or "Forgiving".

    It's more like "Tough Love".
  15. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    . . .
    I was reading an article this morning about the emotional and financial fallout from the Madoff Ponzi scheme. The contrast kind of struck me . . . the number of people going to jail and all the lawsuits compared to what we still see every week right before our eyes in the COS.

    People do get into trouble and go to jail sometimes, not always, for stealing big money in the real world. It does happen.

    . . .
    How blatant theft is handled in the real world versus in the artificial
    and not-so-real world . . . just to put it in stark perspective.

    View attachment 8151

    Participants in the Madoff Ponzi Scheme, considered the biggest financial
    fraud in history with actual losses to investors of about $18 billion

    Bernie Madoff
    Serving a 150-year prison sentence (the maximum allowed) after confessing to running a decades-long Ponzi scheme.

    Other participants / criminal investigations

    Frank Avellino – Florida accountant who ran an investment fund that invested client money.
    Noel Levine – real-estate investor who worked out of a two-room office next door to Madoff's fraudulent operation.
    Palm Beach investor Robert Jaffe – referred potential investors to Madoff.
    Madoff Securities International Ltd. – Mark and Andrew Madoff, Peter Madoff, Ruth and Bernie Madoff held shares.
    Paul Konigsberg – a NYC accountant and longtime friend for more than 25 years pled guilty and faces up to 30 years in prison.
    Norman F. Levy – evidence is being gathered by investigators.
    David G. Friehling – a Madoff's "listed" accountant faces a possible sentence of 20 years.
    Peter B. Madoff – was sentenced to 10 years in prison for his involvement.
    Fred Wilpon – agreed to a settlement for $162 million.
    Ruth Madoff – agreed to give up all of her possessions in return for a promise that federal prosecutors would not go after the $2.5 million she can keep. However, she has been named in several civil actions.
    Mark Madoff – on the second anniversary of his father's arrest, he was found dead in his NYC apartment from an apparent suicide.
    Andrew Madoff – died of mantle cell lymphoma at age 48.
    Jeffry Picower – died before the settlement, his estate returning $7.2 billion in profits.
    Frank DiPascali – faces a maximum of 125 years in prison.

    Madoff backroom staff – in 2010 five backroom employees pleaded not guilty to charges including conspiracy to commit securities fraud. Trials pending or in progress.

    Annette Bongiorno – long time personal secretary and aide to Madoff faces up to 75 years in jail.
    Daniel Bonventre – company director of operations and accountant since the 1960s faces maximum of 77 years in prison.
    Joann Crupi – a former investment advisor to Madoff.
    George Perez – a former Madoff computer programmer.
    Jerome O'Hara – a former Madoff computer programmer.

    Way too many more defendants and conspirators to mention. Really.

    View attachment 8152

    Participants in the Miscavige Ponzi Scheme, a significant religious
    financial fraud with losses to parishioners in the [unknown] billions.

    David Miscavige
    Living the life of luxury with no personal accountability or need to apply normal expected accounting standards.

    Other participants

    Well this is really unclear. They don’t agree with wog fiduciary rules and laws, have very complicated organizational charts, and personnel postings change quite often.

    Most executive staff don’t know about any improprieties. They don’t find out about any scams or anything odd until they decide to leave, walk away, and start browsing on the Internet. Or so I've been told. :whistling:

    Criminal investigations

    They always have the fallback position of: “We’re handling this internally within our superior justice system.”

    Current staff and ex-staff all sign confidentiality documents nowadays, so they can’t be expected to reveal any of the secrets. First amendment protection of religion . . . and all that jazz.

    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  16. uncover

    uncover Gold Meritorious Patron

  17. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron


    I’ve been pondering for a day or so whether or not to Post this response to your Post. Others have clarified or “made the case” for the context of my earlier Post, which I appreciate.

    The gist of the following I’ve Posted about in detail over the last 5 years on ESMB. A small fraction of my Posts on ESMB have mentioned or discussed Mike & Marty. I don’t expect for you to read all those Posts, even if I do a search for and put up Links, so I’m gonna try and distill much of it, but not all, for you and other newer Members.

    Yeah, I agree the the "Rat and Rin" is snarky. :yes:

    Did you ever personally interact with firsthand observe El Ron, DM, Marty or Mike "do their thing" or hear and watch their dehumanizing vindictive towards and about others in the SO, fellow Scns or Folks that were under their power, authority or "crossed" them?

    I've made a number of Posts over the years re Marty and Mike (whom I knew personally).

    Their Websites serve a very valuable purpose for Folks that are still under or just waking up to the "Spell", IMO, and I've Posted that before more than once on ESMB in the past.

    I am very thankful for what Marty and Mike have done since they left the Cof$ (and have said that before on ESMB). I've given Marty his "Props" on the all the Ingleside stuff, his stealth move to the same County that Jeffries has his office in and been repeatedly supportive of Mosey's Suit and the importance of Marty's knowledge, perspective and guts in her litigation and the other litigation he has helped be successful.

    But I'm just not up to admiring Folks that have, since leaving the Cof$ trashed, character assassinated and wrote lies about most of the courageous, completely forthcoming and truthful others that "Woke Up" and came before them that laid the foundation, fought the "Beast" mano y mano at great personal peril and sacrifice--for decades before M&M left--that were mercilessly persecuted and Fair Gamed by M&M when M&M were in the SO, then publically viciously, maliciously vilified and lied about Mike and especially Marty behind the shroud of heavily moderated Blogs after M&M left. Those are the Folks I personally admire--and I personally knew and/or interacted with most of them back in "The Days".

    I guess I'm just one of the "Haters" (M&M's term for folks like me on ESMB) that were actually there when El Ron, DM, M&M and the Children of the Corn (CMO) were eviscerating everyone that said, "Hey, let's chill, talk about and think our way through this...What's going on ain't right and will, if not fixed--and fixed soon--eventually, someday, take the Cof$ down".

    I have no problem that you, or anyone else, likes M&M's Websites...None whatsoever. Like I said, I've got a jaundiced eye having been there in the "Old Days", known and interacted with all the "Key Players"...El Ron, Broeker, DM, Marty, Rinder, etc, etc.

    I know there's currently a bunch Folks that might still be in the Cof$ without M&M's Websites. I venture a guess that there may be as many, or more, Folks that never would have been in the Cof$--or left earlier--if the Lies M&M fostered, protected and were a party to and the Truth they plotted against, inhumanly fought and mercilessly suppressed for decades had seen the light of day back then.

    Yeah, some of my over 100,000 words on ESMB of first hand narrative Posts re El Ron, SO, Scn, Apollo, Int Management, etc, etc about the mid '60's to the mid '80's is pretty snide and occasionally contemptuous may do me no credit. But, I'm not looking for credit...I'm just having my say on an open and justly Moderated Board.

    I’ve Posted the following on several occasions on ESMB…I wish Marty and Mike well; I do not hate them; they are smart guys and are being very effective at dismantling the Cof$ and helping others of their choosing to do so; I do not completely trust Rinder and I don’t trust Marty at all and that lack of trust was born while interacting with them in the SO and has been reaffirmed for me by some of the content—and lack thereof—of their tens of thousands of words Posted on the Net since they first began to speak publically—of which I’ve read most of.

    It's A Okay with me that you disagree with me and don't like what I wrote. It’s A Okay with me that you and others find M&M’s Blogs to be valuable and helpful. And, it’s A Okay with me if you find my comments re them distasteful and upsetting. :coolwink:

    I'm glad you're out and wish you well.:thumbsup:

    Peace. :yes:

    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  18. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader


    Once again the Face demonstrates the class of the classiest.

    The words he writes are worth note. They are wise and will help all who heed them

  19. Edwardo

    Edwardo Patron with Honors

    Fair enough. And I don't have anything further to add at this time to the two posts I wrote earlier in the thread.
  20. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've had 5 minutes conversation with Mike at a party and 2-3 hours in a pub with Marty Monique and Ax 142. So not really in depth knowledge. I liked them.

    In COS most people end up doing things that are wrong and at the time thought
    it was right. People can change and grow. Marty and Mike seem to have done that
    very well. Who'd have foreseen that Marty while bashing DM would one day deconstruct
    Hubbard and his work as he is now. That Mike once international spokesperson
    is doing the same thing now by publishing a very lengthy funeral service.

    I believe forgiveness can be earned or deserved.