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Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by ILove2Lurk, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I'm a fan of Rinder. I'm certainly willing to forgive him. He has just
    taken part in one of the greatest blows to CO$, possibly the greatest.

    I think one might ask if he forgives himself. Note how he broke
    down into tears at one point during filming. I guess he's getting there.
  2. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    I've yet to read his Albert Speer-styled memoir, Inside the Inner Circle. :wink2:

    I'm not gonna make any judgements until I read his book. See what he
    has to say and how much he reveals. The A&E series is a good start.

    I don't think this stuff washes off that easily for the main perpetrators
    of the post-1986 Fraud Part Deux. Certainly he had to know the truth.
    He ain't that dumb!
    Personally, keeping my powder dry. :shrug:

  3. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Had no idea Mike R was writing a memoir. Any more details?
  4. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Personnaly I don't have anything to forgive him about, since I don't know him, never interacted with him, and thus he never conducted any ops on me...(but I assume many others have been harmed by him enforcing LRH SP\critics doctrine and orders to destroy them)

    The forgiving of people involved in such operations against them has three parts:

    1) he forgives himself
    2) his victims forgive him
    3) in the event of criminal event done, society (via justice) may forgives a person
    (there it may takes many forms..from forgiving a whistlel blower who cooperated with justice, at the other end, prosecute on behalf of complaints\investigations till the court decide on guilty\not guilty and either release or time to serve in prison to pay the offense)

    edit to add:

    Concerning this ''forgiving Mike issue'' there is a very interesting moment happening in the least episode (7) of Leah's documentary.

    At exactly 38:16 min

    Mike and Leah meet with: Jonh Sweeney, Tony Ortega and Mike Bunker
    Those guys speak about the devastating Ops conducted on them , some (if not all) Mike was involved in, even Leah Remini.

    At one time Mike says essentially: ''...I Can't excuse it but only can explain this was my mindset at the time...''

    Then Mike Bunker quicky replies him: '' ...I've come to understand this and never needed an apology from you...''

    Then Mike explains they are not ''just journalist'' but he considers all of them his friends now...

    And John Sweeney insists on the psycholigical despair he was driven into and seems to direct it at Mike (and aso Leah which participated in fooling him about the OT3 space opera story)

    John said adressing to Mike Let me ( ..explain ???) what was my mind back , what it was like working against 2007, this psychological thing where you no longer trust reality, it's horrible, an you (pointing at Leah) too part in it...)

    Just my impression for what it worth:

    Even if well under control, we can feel the deep emotional scarves left, in this specific part of the is not least not completely!
    Those guys have been traumatized to a lesser or greater degree..John Sweeney has really been under pressure to drive him totally insane at the camera. (I recall , at the time, I wrote him a personnal letter to support him and tell him this was an op to drive him insane...and that his perception was the right one, and what he was doing drove the cult frantic and Mike and Tommy were ordered to destroy him..obviously with mental pressure" as I worried for his mental sanity)

    It seems, that Mike Bunker didn't get any apology.. :confused2: since he said he didn't demanded any!

    I thought those guys, as well, as anyone who had been submitted to such OSA op , to destroy them or their family, could talk about it, explain the deep despair and harm it did to them, be listened to, acknowledged, and given sincere apology.
    But, it didn't happened there.
    :unsure: (it's kinda like if they are expected to be the ones who must be empathetic)

    The justification and explanations (of Mike) of why it has been done to them..and ''you are my friends now...'' certainly don't erase or heal the harm done..'' and is irrelevant for those who have been harmed and still suffering..Another time, after healing, they can received those explanations of; '' I did it just because It was my mindset and I was ordered to do it per LRH policies..'' -
    To me..the only valuable thing we can offer to people we have severly harmed...intentionnaly, on purpose, especially when they all know it was an op...are apologies and later..more explanations if they need so to make sense of it. I would have liked to see or know they are truly acknowledged and are offered a sincere apology, each of them, personnaly! (I think it would have acted also as an acknowledgement of the pain and suffering of the viewers who had thoses ops conducted on them)

    But again...I can't be judgemental to Mike Rinder..since I am not wearing his shoes, neither been hurt by him.
    We all have our own path to walk. I must credit him though for the courage to face this situation on camera and listen to them.
    May be it's tough for him, even if he always remains ''in control of his emotions'' I don't know :confused2: But I am certain he his doing his very best.

    But really, I felt for the guys, especially John Sweeney! :confused2:
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  5. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    I think HelluvaHoax is the co-writer and editor. :biggrin:

    Ask him. He might be able to fill you in with the dust jacket copy. :coolwink:
  6. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Maybe the joke is too obscure. I'll explain.

    Albert Speer wrote a book, Inside the Third Reich, wherein he describes his history within Hitler's inner circle from the mid-30's to the end of the war. Many people have criticized Speer and the book because for all the stuff he must have witnessed first hand, he claims that he did not see, hear or know about a lot of the more sordid things that went on.

    In the book, as at the Nuremberg Trials, Speer denied any knowledge of the Holocaust. While he admits to his knowledge of slave labor used in his ministry, Speer claimed that he tried to improve the slave laborers' condition and that he preferred not to use such labor.

    Even his editorial aide, Joachim Fest, noted in later editions of Inside the Third Reich that much of what Speer wrote disagreed with his testimony at Nuremberg. Most notably, Speer originally made up excuses as to why he stayed with Hitler until the end, but in his memoirs, he admitted he did so out of personal loyalty.

    In the book, Speer claimed to have contemplated Hitler's assassination in early 1945 to end the war. However, aside from an affidavit from one of his friends, Dieter Stahl, there is no evidence to substantiate it.

    So the joke is what kind of book would Mike write? One that reveals all? Or did he not know about a lot of the sordid stuff?

    So far, he claims to not have know about a lot of what was really going on until after he got out. (Discussed earlier in the thread.)

    Hence alluding to an Albert Speer-styled memoir.

    I guess the thread has gone to hell now that I've invoked Godwin's law.

    Don't make me explain that! You can google it. :wink2:
  7. AnonLover

    AnonLover Patron Meritorious

    One thing I've come to realize in the wake of Leah's show, is that as long as there is a chance--no matter how slim--that Mike might reconnect with his two older children, the all-telling memoir/documentary with every little dirty thing revealed is not in his best interest as far as getting his kids out and repairing the harm done them. IMO, I think that's what matters most to him and I think that is the undertone to everything he does now and the way he does it. He walks a very fine line when it comes to judging what is the right thing to do. And if you look at the big picture in regards to every blow he lays on DM versus his very restrained actions on discrediting anything directly related to LRH, it makes sense he is trying to limit the damage done to himself for the sake of not proving to his disconnected kids that he is the truly evil being they've been led to believe he is.

    His kids, by simple fact of their age, will NEVER have an reality on LRH being the real source of everything that is wrong in Scientology as long as they're still in. But there is always the chance that they will see what so many others have come to see in recent years: that DM is running shit into the ground and destroying everything Scientology is supposed to stand for.

    IF, or when, his kids become disgruntled and peak at the internet to find out what their Dad has been up to - consider what would resonate and be most likely to have the most impact on getting them to flee and reach out to Mike. HELLO - it's all the stuff Mike primarily focuses on.

    Family should come first, no matter what. Even when that requires sacrifice. When you consider the long line of sins Rinder left behind, his two kids are not only at the front of the line they are hundreds of miles ahead of every one else he wronged.

    So I can wait for the ultimate tell-all from Rinder. Especially since I believe it would be a helluva lot better if it's done AFTER his kids break free.

    YMMV but I think he should be given ample time to wait it out on his kids leaving the cult. And when it comes to people bashing him for what he doesn't do publicly it should be justified with why he should torpedo any and all hope he might have of eventually salvaging the lives of his two oldest kids once they come to see DM in a bad way. As long as they're still in the cult, Mike still has something to loose. Two, really BIG somethings to loose. He spent 20+ years destroying their lives. He deserves just as long for trying to carefully ride it out in and hang on to whatever hope he might still have for getting a chance to repair what he did to them first and foremost.

    Sooner or later, we need to realize that the continued longevity of the abuses and wrongs being committed against the later generations of born-in members outweighs the wrongs done to any one person in the past. So many wrongs done in the past will never get the justice it deserves because Hubbard died before he went to jail. So the real justice is stopping the never-ending aspect of the abuses continuing, which means getting people out BEFORE they drag their children into it and getting them healed as quickly as possible so they can reach back into the bubble and get others out before they're too far removed to make a difference.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  8. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I don't think it's just that Mike is concerned by disconnection/reconnection.

    Speaking as a father, if I was in Mike's position, and I had children whom DM had access to (and power over), I would be very hesitant to do anything which might send over the edge, somebody who he personally knows to be a violent psychopath.

    Think about the kind of person who has been shown to be willing to let his own father die. What might he order done to the kids of somebody who sends him into a violent rage?

    I have no problems with him being a bit careful.
  9. AnonLover

    AnonLover Patron Meritorious

    THAT TOO! Jeezus... that opens up a whole new pandora's box of revenge I never even considered.
  10. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Let's even ignore the potential of violence. Consider all the various ways in which a vindictive DM can damage the well being and mental state of Mike's offspring, in what is effectively a hostage situation.

    DM has many ways, overt and covert, where he can make Mike's kids suffer. Mike knows this. There are limits to what he can safely do.
  11. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    Sorry. I don't have sympathy or empathy for Rinder and his sorrow for his lost children. How many children have been lost because of Rinder?
    I just don't see him as any different than I see any other sociopath. Doing what he must do in order to get acknowledgement and kindness from people whom he has treated like shit.
    He and Leah make a good team.
    I credit Leah for that. She is the "real deal" and I am in love with her.
    But that's just me.
    I want to see it all out there. All the crimes that he conspired to implement with his orders to Jrs, as well as his "hands on" abuse. Let's have a timeline of the Ops MR was responsible for. In the Courts. If he goes to prison, it will be his just reward.
    Yes. I am a bitter Momma.
    Mike Rinder can kiss my old ass.
  12. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    I agree 1,000 % !
  13. Gizmo

    Gizmo Rabble Rouser

    No fan here. Far far too many broken families left in his wake over the decades of his devotion to the cult.

    Parents torn from children. Children torn from parents. marriages wrecked for life.

    Rinder may get forgiven - just not by me.
  14. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's been over two months since I last Posted on ESMB...After reading what follows some of you may wish it had been much longer.

    I've been sorta skimming the board a few times a week and reading a little here, a little there. I'd forgotten about this Thread and re-read it today.

    IMHO IL2K, Dart Smohen, HH and Mick (and others) have made some very important Posts re: what was surely (whether or not we knew it at the time) a "Tipping Point" for many of Us and Scn.

    Over the 2+ years since this Thread was last Posted on (until dchoiceisalwaysrs Post yesterday) mucho much has transpired re: Rinder and Rathbun: Since then, Rinder--a consummate PR--has charted his way, as has Marty--a consummate Enforcer.

    AnonLover Posted a well thought out and compelling comment re: Rinder and his children and, there were a number of well thought out and compelling Posts on ESMB re: Rathbun and his new child after Monique's seemingly incomprehensible capitulation.

    I'm most thankful Marty has done what he has done and Mike has done and is doing what he is doing...All far beyond what I've ever done, am doing or will ever do.

    All I've ever done is--after around a decade or so in the SO (all as Flag Crew and much of it on the Apollo)--finally recognizing that El Ron was not the "OT de OT's, that the "New Civilization" was not a place I wanted live in and, most importantly, have my children grow up in. They were innocent, at risk, in peril and I was driven to somehow, someway take them away and protect them, nurture them and provide for them until they reached "the age of consent" and could make their own choices. I helped them be born into this world and watched as they drew first breath and their face came alight with the color of Life as they opened their eyes to first sight.

    My heart aches for any Father or Mother that is estranged from their child because of Scn. However IMHO, nearly all Scn's knew if they wanted to stay "In Good Standing" (although they never thought it would happen to them if they "followed the 'Tech'") that Disconnection existed and it included your Spouse, Parents, Sibs and Children.

    For anyone that Married and had a child or children born into the SO...What the F did you think could potentially happen? Think about it...You're going through all the severe deprivation, anal scrutiny and personal abasement dictated by others and that's OK because that's what you're willing to tolerate in order to "Salvage this Sector of the Universe" for the next billions of years...And, to be an In Ethics Group Member it's perforce OK with you for your child's future--who was, de facto, taken from you--to be raised, guided and determined by those same others and you have 1 hour per day of personal interaction with (If you're lucky, "Up-Stat" or a Senior Exec).

    The OP of this Thread is about Mike Meisner...An average Joe--like yours truly--that got caught up in the SO/GO/Scn Truman Show.

    I hope Mike Meisner is doing well and has had a good life.

    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  15. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Thanks for asking and thanks for your kindness, Face. :rose:

    Don't want to say much as he probably values his anonymity after all that went down in the 70's.

    He and his wife both had substantial professional careers and seem to have done very well financially.

    They have a very beautiful mid-to-upper-class home with some land in a nice wooded neighborhood.

    I'm not in contact . . . but I know for sure.
  16. Lord Xenu

    Lord Xenu Patron Meritorious

    Does DM truly believe he's invincible (in the physical realm)? With all the media attention currently directed toward the cult? And what has happened with the Shelley investigation?

    It would be interesting to know what the thinking of the current inner circle is. Do they believe that things are going to carry on pretty much the same as before Hurricane Leah?
  17. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    My guess (and it's is only a guess) is that DM is brilliant at externalising his problems and conflicts and converting them into a form he's convinced he can handle. If anything goes wrong, it's the fault of his minions and an excuse to crack the whip yet harder on them.

    So far, this hasn't failed because no one beneath him has seriously rebelled against him. If they did, I think his power would crumble because there's nothing to back it up with and he has no true friends or allies, just people he's persuaded to do his bidding.

    I think the catalyst for that rebellion would be the growing realisation amongst his underlings that DM is failing badly even by LRH's standards; far from expanding Scn., he's shrinking it and driving it into the ground.
  18. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I agree. As with any leader, the only thing that keeps him in power, is having followers who believe in that leadership, and who think that their personal goals will be enhanced through their support of him.

    Let that BELIEF start to crumble, and his power shatters like a glass vase dropped on concrete. Consider how fast the authority of a certain Romanian dictator crumpled, and how quickly his end came once his authority collapsed.
  19. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    That's a tough question to answer. Those that are inclined to be forgiving will, at some point, say yes. Those who are not inclined will probably say no.

    I see on this thread that someone posted that Mike had never done anything to him so it was not really something that concerned him (or her) which I must admit kind of worries me.

    Mike has always been a nice guy at least in my experience with him. I guess my criterion for this question would be that when I see that Mike has truly forgiven himself, then I will too. Up to that point - I'll just wait.
  20. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Back in early 1979, when I worked in the basement of the Manor as USGO's Director of Income, Mike Rinder was fairly new heading the USGO, having been on post only a few months. He was surrounded by a tight-knit clan of veteran SO members and every week they had an FP meeting.

    I dealt directly with the roughest, toughest, meanest battleaxe of those veteran GO staff: Val Lisa, who headed the infamous B1 Bureau of the USGO and was also the FP Chairman for the USGO. All USGO FP members were Sea Org USGO.

    In my files were all the individuals who had left the GO or Sea Org (GO members were SO or 2-1/2 or 5 year contracted Non-SO then), as well as all the scn franchise missions and orgs that had been sent Missions/Interference by the USGO who were billed for those interference Missions.

    My predecessor had also occasionally filed Mission Orders in the debtor files, which was quite a shocker to me at the time. Val Lisa later discreetly entered my office one night and removed these, as well as anything else she felt was of interest - personal or otherwise. :angry: I was always voice-recorded, so pretended not to notice. She took things on a somewhat regular basis, sometimes returning then, sometimes not.

    So I had the Riverside Mission USGO files and the COSMOD files before the SP Declares came out, as well as the files for every org or mission/franchise that had ever been sent a Mission (official Sea Org term for an interfering bunch of dedicated SO members sent by the USGO to find and destroy SPs and handle "flaps"). Mark(Marty) Rathbun was nobody important back then and not involved directly in these, btw. His power came later, through DM. This was Mike Rinder's time.

    I had a few unforgettable conversations with the sneaky, vicious B1 witch Val Lisa about Mike Rinder, which may give others here a better glimpse of what was going on at the time.

    Every Friday morning, after the Thursday night FP Committee, Val Lisa would go over my collections lineup with me. In the beginning, she wanted me to collect the mission/franchise debts, which I hated worse than collecting from individuals. The ex-GO members were quite sweet, the Riverside, COSMOD and other missions/franchises were extremely angry and upset.

    I couldn't blame them. Here were these hyped up, outrageous bills for tens of thousands of dollars for USGO Missions/Interference that did nothing but upset staff and stir up trouble, Missions that caused more trouble than they helped, supposedly handling "shore flaps" that had begun as nothing more than a few upset public but by USGO interference, abuse and exacerbation, became huge, blown-up emergencies (a "Hill 10" in scino-speak).

    One Friday morning, after battleaxe Val pushed particularly hard and even subtly threatened me for not collecting from COSMOD and Riverside, I told her I had contacted the EDs and they could not afford to pay those bills but I thought there was a possibility that smaller, regular payments could be worked out. Hearing this, Val's eyes went hard and her mouth stretched tight into a cruel, toothy grin. "No," she said, "That is not acceptable. Those bills need to be paid in full and I want them paid this week."

    "But they can't!" I said, "How can you force them to pay money that they don't have?"

    "We'll see about that," she said, and went on about how they were squirreling LRH tek.

    Over the next few weeks, I received a few small payments and reported these in my weekly income breakdown. Val became increasingly infuriated.

    One day she came into the office actually happy! She told me that she had been working on Mike Rinder for weeks, but Mike was soft and kept refusing to allow B1 to take the next actions. She said he was new and green and didn't have the experience or understand how tough it was dealing with squirrels and SPs, but she was teaching him and he was slowly coming around and she thought Mike would approve her plan soon. (She never let on the details of her plan to me as I was not officially GO staff, simply on loan from AOLA.)

    Val Lisa was a bully and she had a lot of power. Her world was black and white, full of only good hats and black hats. The clan of high-ranking SO members was the inner group within the group that ran things. Mike Rinder was not yet one of them, he was a figurehead then, and initially was the only one who resisted and held back the storms of SP Declares on COSMOD, Riverside and elsewhere - at least for a month or two. Eventually, he gave in.

    Clearly, those Mission/franchise SP Declares and their financial ruin were Val Lisa's personal brainstorm and desire. It was Val Lisa's personal mission to blow up all those lives and destroy those franchises completely.

    Most SO members only had a short brush with people like Val Lisa. Mike Rinder had to deal with her insanity nearly every day, for years. Val thought of herself as his "mentor." Eventually, Val Lisa's scientological psychopathy and the isolated bubble of the world of the Sea Org and GO rubbed off on Mike Rinder, too, just as Val planned.

    I'm not sure anyone under the thumb of Val Lisa and saturated with the PTS/SP tek of scn for that long would have done much differently than Mike Rinder. He was far better than many people I can imagine in his post. Mike Rinder sometimes approved cancellations of SP Declares without requiring A-E or Comm Evs or Boards of Review circuses. Cancellations of SP Declares only occurred for a short time period in the early 80s. Melanie (something) and Jergen Brock as CJCs assisted those cancellations, but Mike did as well. That may not sound like much, but under the circumstances, it was huge.

    Back then, Mike Rinder was a man of few words and the occasional bark. He had a poker face and sometimes sneered. On his own, though, he could and would listen to logic. Unfortunately, he came to believe in squirrels and SPs as evil. Unlike Val, though, Mike would sometimes see when someone was incorrectly labeled and did not want the person to suffer. He was not psychotic, like Val, but he was influenced by her and others like her. Deep down, Mike retained some compassion, some sense of humanity and logic that could sometimes be reached, despite the GO persona.

    Val was right, he was soft-hearted, but she hardened him. Bitch. :angry:
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017