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Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by ILove2Lurk, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. TheSneakster

    TheSneakster More Skeptical Than You

    From Mike Rinder's blog:
    Sheila, USGO was located in Los Angeles and not Clearwater. The Guardian's Office was not under the Sea Org or the CMO at that time (to the best of my recollection), either. So are you so sure of your recollection that you want to call Mike Rinder an outright liar without at least checking with some of the other messengers who were around at the time (perhaps Janis Grady or Lois Reisdorf for instance)?

    edit addendum: Please do not take this as any sort of insult because I intend none. I'm only asking.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  2. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Emphasis mine.

    I believe he is only rejecting your evaluation regarding him and Val Lisa (and perhaps of his personality at that time overall) because that is what he says in his response. I'm happy to be wrong Sheila ... only if he replies to you will we know for sure.
  3. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    It's perfectly understandable to me that he wouldn't remember things the same, especially 37 years ago.

    What made me angry was that he never mentioned that he ran the USGO since 1979 or even late 1978 and that he omitted it entirely from his history and that during that time he had extensive dealings with Val Lisa. She headed B1 and was FP Chairman. There was no single person under him in the USGO that had more influence. She is not the sort of person one forgets, either, and he obviously did not forget her = he knew who she was. Fair enough, he feels she was negligible now, that's fine.

    In his memory, she had no effect on him. Fair enough. Maybe she didn't. But he omitted that time period, so I would say that the whole thing is still obfuscated for him, regardless of whether Val or me perceived his beginnings at USGO correctly or not.
  4. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    That's probably why it's best to let people tell their own stories ... even when your original intention is good.
  5. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I'm not the one that decided to present it to Mike Rinder on his BLOG.

    Regardless, for legal and other reasons, folks want to know who was in charge of USGO then. Whether Mike wants to skirt around that or not doesn't matter to me. That was his post title, "Mike Rinder, Director, USGO."

    Mark Rathbun was in GO GLA at first. They recruited him in 1978.

    Weird that they both claim that when they had posts with the GO, they were actually CMO.
  6. janisgrady

    janisgrady Patron

    Mike Rinder was in CMO CW during the time period you are talking about. So he is correct in not knowing what you are talking about as it wasn't him. Before going to Int in the early 80s, Mike was in Clearwater since we moved from the ship in Oct 1975. He was never in the USGO nor even Flag GO and was not based in PAC.

    1979 Marty also was not in the GO, he was in LRH External Comm at the Int Base (Gold).

    You must have both Mike and Marty mixed up with other people that were in the GO.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  7. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Nice to see you Janis. :)
  8. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    No, Janis. You are mistaken. I never said 1979 for Marty (Mark). I said Marty was at GO GLA in 1978.

    Marty's first post was security and picking up Diane Coletto from Pubs Org, which at that time was located at Big Blue. He detailed the death suicide in his own way in one of his books (though others have described the event differently). Diane died in front of Big Blue on August 19, 1978 and only Marty (and John Coletto, who apparently suicided afterward) witnessed the final moments of her life. Do you care to deny that, too?

    Marty (Mark) had only been on staff a short while, then,a few weeks, when I personally met him at the security area only a few days before the Coletto murder/suicide. He was introduced to me by Jeff Porter and a security guard (who has long been out but has not come forward so I will not name) as a new GO GLA staff member who would temporarily be working security while doing basic training. One of his first tasks was to guard Diane Coletto, since her husband had blown the RPF and had threatened to kill her. He was sent away after that. Do you have firsthand knowledge that he was in LRH External Comm at Gold after that, or is this something you heard or read? I wouldn't know exactly where he went after that, my knowledge that he REMAINED in GO GLA is second hand. My personally meeting him as the GO GLA member who would look after Diane Coletto is not. That's where Marty started his staff career.

    You said, "Before going to Int in the early 80s, Mike was in Clearwater since we moved from the ship in Oct 1975. He was never in the USGO nor even Flag GO and was not based in PAC."

    Yes, you would know about the ship and 1975. I am sure Mike began in CW and since he was young, he would have started as CMO. But how would you know all of Mike's posts, duties, assignments, hats and whereabouts after that? If you are sure Mike Rinder was not at USGO then, who was the Director of USGO at the end of 1978-1980 or so? Certainly Val Lisa was the head of B1 and my direct senior. I saw her frequently for an entire year and she referred to Mike Rinder regularly.

    As no names of GO staff were ever written in full anywhere, ever, and even post titles rarely referred to, you know that I cannot document this. I do not know how often Mike Rinder was at PAC (the Manor was where the USGO was located then), I do not know if he was on Garrison Mission as CMO staff, either, which often happened. CMO would often be given long-term assignments as posts as missionaires.

    ADDED: Could Mike Rinder have been directing USGO mostly from CW and only occasionally at PAC? I did not deal with Mike Rinder personally. Val Lisa did.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  9. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Hi Hobs,

    Thank you for being polite. You are right. USGO was at PAC at the Manor, not at CW.

    Now that I think about it, Mike Rinder may very well have been permanently based in CW. I remember now that even Val Lisa sometimes had a hard time reaching him. I had assumed he was there in PAC throughout, but I think it may be that she spoke to him by phone or reached him in some other manner the majority of the time. She never let me witness their conversations and I assumed at the time that they always spoke in person. That was an assumption, so very well could be wrong and it sounds like it was. How often was he in PAC personally? Someone once pointed out Mike Rinder to me, but now you're all making me wonder if that was him after all. :shrug:

    My area was isolated from the rest of the GO because I was not officially USGO. Rarely was I in touch with other GO members beyond Val Lisa and the Director of Disbursements, who shared my office with me in the basement of the Manor. Most of the USGO was on one of the upper floors (The 7th floor, I believe) and I was never allowed up there.

    It was Val Lisa who referred to Mike Rinder as the Director of USGO. I am not mistaken that she said that - she said Mike Rinder's name to me dozens of times and I was on that post with her as my senior for a full year. Mike may have held Director USGO as an HFA post, or maybe Val only referred to Mike Rinder as the Director around me so I would not know Mike Rinder's full title. I don't know.

    I do know that she needed his approval for any major thing. Mike Rinder was her senior or her senior's senior. She said what I wrote earlier, about Mike being soft and her hardening him up and working on him to approve her plan. I am not backing off of my statement of the conversations that transpired between me and Val Lisa. Some conversations you do not forget. I may have had his face wrong back then, he was pointed out to me once while walking, but I did not forget a name I had heard so many times that year. Just like I never forgot your name, or what happened on the EPF to you.

    I may be wrong about Mike Rinder personally canceling SP Declares. Someone in the GO did, though. I always thought it was Mike Rinder, but as I said, nobody ever signed anything with their names. So somebody else was the nice guy then, since apparently he doesn't recall canceling any.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  10. janisgrady

    janisgrady Patron

    What gives you the idea I am denying Marty's involvement with Diana Coletta incident - I said nothing about it nor did I say anything denying where Marty started is career. I stated he was in LRH Ext Comm in 1979 and yes, I do have first hand knowledge of Marty being in LRH External Comm in 1979, as not only did he deliver mail and telexes to me, he also gave me flowers. When in the Sea Org, if someone gave you a flower, you usually remember who that person was.

    As for Mike Rinder, though Mike did join the SO while young, he was not in the CMO on the ship, he joined the CMO at the FLB in Clearwater. Mike rose through the ranks in CMO CW with him and Ronnie Miscavige being the CO and D/CO CMO CW - LRH used to refer to them as the Duke and Earl. There was only two significant periods when the CMO had anything to do with the GO until the early 80's when DM did his take over and took MSH out. The first time was in summer of 1976 when I along with two other messengers were a relay point to LRH when he first moved from DC to LA, we were operating out of the GO Ext Comm office using their telex machines - we were under tight security and the only offices they allowed us to enter was Ext Comm with everything locked, to deliver MSH traffic to her US GO Communicator or to the DG US which was Henning Helt. This was at the manor. Then in 1980 I was posted as the International Relations Director in the CMO Int to be a relay point between MSH and the CMO since LRH was no longer on the lines to do that job.

    When Rinder left CMO CW he went to CMO Int, I know because I was there and we worked together. He did not go to PAC and again had nothing to do with the GO until long after it was disbanded and OSA was established.

    You must have Rinder mixed up with someone else that was in the US GO.
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I believe you. I just don't know why you questioned me in the first place on it. On my post I said 1978, and that was not edited, either. I never said 1979. So we seem to be in agreement.

    Thank you for letting me know about him being LRH Ext Comm in '79, though,as another person once told me differently and said he stayed in the GO for years. I did not personally know.

    That's interesting about Mike joining CMO in CW and about LRH's move from DC to LA in 1976, too. I remember Henning Heldt (never met, never dealt with him) Thank you for confirming that the GO was at the Manor, which I also stated was where I worked in 1979. They had about 4 or 6 offices in the basement hallway, plus the (7th?) floor and USGO Treasury was in the last one on the right nearest the outer door. That's where I worked.

    Setting aside the discussion of Mike Rinder's post in 1979 for the moment, do you remember any other names from the USGO during 1979 besides Henning Heldt? Who do you believe was the USGO Director then?

    1979 was a big year for the USGO. There were a lot of legal battles and legal expenses were high. Toward the latter end of 1979 (or perhaps early 1980), a senior authority transferred all the service orgs' reserves into the USGO account and then directly out of there to foreign accounts. I was shown those transfers by the Dir Disbursements, but neither of us recognized the name/signature of the person who authorized those transfers. Not L Ron, not Mary Sue, not ED Int. The signature was not even legible, but we all knew the signatures of those three from so many copies of hand-signed documents that were still around then. Until I saw those transfers, I had no idea there were any other signatures on the bank accounts other than the ones outlined in OEC policy. It was quite a shock to both of us.

    How could the CMO possibly not have been involved in those transfers? Others also stated that the FSO Reserves were transferred into the USGO account in that same time period.

    Can you help resolve the mystery of who signed off on those?

    ADDED: So you know, Janis, I am confident of the year's accuracy because I held Dir Income USGO shortly after my 18th birthday. Some dates are never forgotten. Oh, and I never forgot that AOLA banked with Sumitomo Bank at that time, either.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  12. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    deleted, incorrect data
  13. janisgrady

    janisgrady Patron

    CMO got involved in direct management in late 1979 when WDC was established. So they would not have been involved in SOR nor GOR. The GO had no control of SOR, that was handled by the SOR Chief who was Sea Org. The GO did have control of GOR which came from the 10% from the Mission Network. The GO were very desperate for funds at that time to defend the GO criminals - they set up the SEF fundraising as LRH would not let the church defend them. As for transfer org reserves overseas, this was probably the time Church of Scientology of California was being drained of all assets and turned into a shell corporation to avoid having assets that Wollersheim and others could go after.

    The GO check signer you are talking about would most likely be Herbie Parkhouse - he was D/G Finance at World Wide and had full control of the GOR and other funds.

    Other US GO people around this time besides Henning would be Artie Marin, Dick Wieland, Duke Snider, Ann Snider, Janet Lawrence, Dorie Deer-Hare, Mike Smith (little). There was also Fred and Ginger Ulan. Ginger was in GO Ext Comm along with Mike Howson and Fred in PR. They were the only people I remember dealing with. The US GO, besides some offices in the basement also had the 6th and 7th floor of the manor.
  14. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    No, this was not SOR or GOR. Up until that time (which is when those particular accounts were drained), the Sea Org service orgs (AOLA, FSO, ASHO and AOLA)not only paid into SOR, but they had their own reserve accounts, called, for example, "AOLA Reserves". Herbie Parkhouse's signature was extremely clear, so not Herbie, nor was it the org AG-F's signatures. I knew Al Crivello's signature very well, since AOLA was USGO's "support" org and sent a sizable amount to the USGO by check every week.

    And yes, it was at the time CSC was being drained over the Wollersheim suit, so yes, that's why I believe it was done, too. The WHO was the mystery. It's not important at this point, but thank you very much for trying. It may have been a COS accountant or something. :shrug:

    Oh, Dorie! I completely forgot her. What a sweetheart!

    Most of those names I know very well from after I went back to AOLA in 1980, though I can't say when they were all transferred to AOLA from USGO. Dick Weiland was AOLA's examiner for a while. Ann Snyder was an AOLA NSO auditor. Mike Howson was the Public MAA AOLA (I never knew he was in the GO!). Gary Jacobs was Public MAA after Mike Howson and was also former GO. I knew Janet Lawrence but not well, so I'm vague on details about her. Mike Smith (Little) I remember from USGO. I didn't know Fred and Ginger Ulan but since you mentioned them, they were probably on some list somewhere.

    Speaking of Dick Weiland (a name that completely eluded me until you mentioned him), would you know what happened to him? AOLA had an examiner that either suicided or went Type 3 and blew around 1980 and I never remembered his name. Nobody else can remember, either, and I don't want him forgotten. I hope it wasn't Dick, he was a real nice guy.

    There were also loads of contracted GO staff who were NSO, but most of those were in GO GLA, although USGO had some, too.

    Janis, I'm sorry to see we had a difference of opinion re Mike Rinder's post or at least his duties in 1979. Since my information is not quite firsthand (was from Val Lisa) and this was so many years ago, I will simply accept what you say and that I must be mistaken or Val Lisa was pulling my leg or putting me through some weird trust test. Thanks for taking the time to chat about this.

  15. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Enjoying reading this interesting thread... I lived in the Manor for long stretches of time when visiting Los Angeles, starting in late 79, on and off through 1983. All those names Janis mentioned were well known in the building and the Manor Cafe ( before it became a fancy place ). However I appear to have missed something in this thread. What do SOR nor GOR stand for?
  16. exsomessenger

    exsomessenger Patron Meritorious

    I believe it is Sea Org Reserves and Gaurdiens Office Reserves. They are accounts where all the monies are stored.
  17. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    SOR is Sea Org Reserves. The org FBO's take as much money as they can from the service orgs for SOR every week and give them as little as possible for bills and staff pay.

    GOR is Guardian's Office Reserves. Money set aside for legal bills or whatever. Would be IAS now.
  18. TheSneakster

    TheSneakster More Skeptical Than You

    Sea Org Reserves and Guardian Office Reserves, respectively. Both "Reserves" were intended to fund their respective organizations for long periods in the event of major financial troubles choking off the income lines from organizations (Sea Org) or missions (GO).

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
  19. janisgrady

    janisgrady Patron

    Hi Sheila

    I don't know what happened to Dick Weigand. I have heard there are quite a few ex GO, including those that did jail time for the GO crimes, working for DMA David Morse and Associates in LA, I believe Tom and Nancy Reiter now own the company and they are Ex GO Clearwater. This is also the company where Craig Reisdorf was working when he first moved to LA from San Diego when he disconnected from the rest of his family as covered on Leah's interview with Lois, Gary, Brett and Brandon Reisdorf - so I guess those Ex GOers are still being used, but on the outside.

    I just remembered there was also Greg Willardson and Craig Jensen who I believe is some wealthy FCCI now days.

    Enjoyed the chat.

  20. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Denny Gogerly, Treasurer WW? (GOWW)

    I have some very vague memory of Herbie's signature being a pretty neat/legible HGParkhouse (maybe just the HGP was neat) and Denny's having a legible D but the rest being not so clear.

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017