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The CofS and the CIA.

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by mate, Apr 30, 2007.

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  1. mate

    mate Patron Meritorious

    I was stunned when Bea Kiddo described her time as Universe Corps C/S in the CofS "church" in Caracas, Venezuela. From her description about having to bring in US dollars and of the "church" itself, it is hard to imagine that it had achieved Old Saint Hill size.

    On the other hand, there has been a major political conflict between the Bush administration and Hugo Chavez, the President of Venezuela. In the past, in countries where such political conflicts with the US Administration existed, the CIA has been operating clandestinely.

    In 1993 the Closing Agreement between the IRS and the CofS, was enacted and in the following year, 1994, the CofS utilized INTERPOL and the US Drug Enforcement Agency to illegally harass David Mayo. It is hard to imagine that Miscavige had the influence to coerce these organizations, to undertake such an harassment. On the other hand, the IRS and the CIA, would have had such an influence.There is some conjecture as to who ultimately controls the CST which, in turn, controls the CofS through the RTC. The Closing Agreement is incomplete and ambiguous, and there can be no doubt that there is an extant trust which spells out who controls the CofS. The IRS was very much involved in the restructuring of the CofS and the tax exempt concession would allow Miscavige to claim that the CofS had the better of the deal. Whereas, the reality is that he has "sold" the CofS to the US Government. It would appear that Miscavige's commission, is a large "expense account". From the US Governments viewpoint, the CofS is self funding and, in addition, as its assets are converted into real estate, then it would not appear on any US budget.

    An international church would be the perfect vehicle for the CIA in its foreign and indeed, its domestic, operations. The CofS has an additional attraction with its own intelligence service. If I'm not mistaken, only the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints, have their own intelligence services.

    Regards, David.
  2. Steven James

    Steven James Guest

    ....... and the Church of Later Day Saints apparently have their own bunker with scripture also.....

    ......Very good post David.

    It was a Venezuelan actress who a Freedom Medal award at the big 2005 International IAS event. Her and a radio presenter. Audrey something or the other and someone else.
  3. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I have never seen or heard a single tiny shred of hard evidence that any US Govt agency has any control whatsoever over DM or any part of the :shark:. One can imagine anything, but if there is no evidence at all, so what? Can anyone provide a single link to any credible testimony online where some ex has said he observed DM after 1986 getting his orders from anyone? Any hint of it? Even from an uncredible source? I don't recall ever reading anything like that in all the hundreds of affidavits, personal stories etc.

    Read this post by Larry Brennan on a.r.s. for a good counter-argument written by a long-term senior SO exec who was actively involved in the whole corporate set-up and who has first-hand data.

  4. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Thank you, Paul.

    Excellent point.
  5. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    I do know that when I was in Venezuela, Chavez originally thought that Scn was behind the Democratic protest movement going on at the time. Somehow they determined that to be untrue. In Vza, the orgs are not that big. I would say only 1000 Scientologists in the entire Country. But that is my own wild guess based on events and so forth that I saw.

    I do know when I was there that the American Embassy bailed out months before I left, telling all Americans to get out now, cause it was not safe. I don't know if they ever made it back.:eyeroll:

    OHTEEATE Silver Meritorious Patron


    Chavez is taking over the oil reserves, in the Orinoco area. He has yet to determine how the owners will be compensated. He had better be careful. The US Govt. is not the only group with snipers. There are ex-military who could do the job. I think Castro was let go because he served some purpose. Chavez could just be too dangerous, and step on the wrong toes. Oil companies have lots of money for "political action".
  7. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Speaking of it, I received this email today from somebody:

    Diane Sawyer on ABC news interviewed the Venezuelan leader Chavez just a
    few weeks ago -- March 2007 He is very dangerous, and you can tell he is
    thrilled to be selling oil to America and having a foot on the throat of
    this country. If you did not hear the interview, the following was
    discussed, and it is true. Chavez has all this oil money coming in and the
    majority of his own people are living in poverty while he is very rich. He
    is best of friends with Castro and Russian leaders. He told Diane Sawyer
    that he was friends with all the world leaders, with the exception of the

    CITGO CHANGING NAME...this is serious Americans... make sure you read....


    Chavez is NOW getting a Russian Weapons Factory built by Putin . The
    RUSSIANS are building an AK-47 Kalashnikov Assault Rifle factory in
    Venezuela , to give armament support to Communist Rebel groups throughout
    the Americas .

    Chavez NOW has IRANIANS operating his oil refineries in Venezuela for him.
    It is likely only a matter of time, if not already, before Chavez has
    Iranian built LONG RANGE missiles, with a variety of warhead types aimed
    at: Guess Who?

    CITGO is NOW in the process of Changing Its Name to PETRO EXPRESS due to
    the loss of gasoline sales in the USA due to the recent publicity of
    ownership by Chavez of Venezuela.

    Every dollar you spend with CITGO or PETRO EXPRESS gasoline will be used
    against you, your basic human rights, and your freedoms. He will start
    wars here in the Americas that will probably be the death of millions of
    free people.

    THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because Chavez is starting to feel the loss of
    revenue from his holdings. HE OWNS CITGO.




    Last edited: May 2, 2007
  8. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    If anyone dislikes getting their news from anonymous e-mails, there is a discussion of this matter here on Snopes' site.

  9. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Who is getting anonymous emails?
  10. mate

    mate Patron Meritorious

    Hi Paul.
    We can either assume that Miscavige has undue influence with Interpol by being able to have them undertake the harassment of David Mayo, or that someone else is calling the shots. I find it impossible to accept that Miscavige has this influence, certainly not the Miscavige I met at Int or the Miscavige described by Jessie Prince, Blownforgood, and others who have posted on the internet. I accept that you do find it quite acceptable that he could have this influence. We could add the astonishing action by President Clinton approaching Germany on behalf of the CofS, said to be a favor to his friend Travolta. What was the real reason for Clinton to do something like this? As a favor for a friend, I think not. What did Clinton get out of it? Why would the US President want the CofS in Germany?

    Sure the CofS got away with a blood sample as an autopsy on Hubbard and got away with Barnett, while at Gold, "committing suicide" with a rifle, shooting herself three times in the chest and once in the head with no powder burns. Which no doubt could stem from local corruption. And of course, there has been the suggestion that the IRS Commissioner, Goldberg, was blackmailed by the CofS to get a tax exempt status, but how real is this, when there have been six Commissioners since, who could have easily reversed the decision. So why haven't they?

    Larry Brennan and his Special Unit colleagues, were very much involved in restructuring of the CofS into the CST/RTC set up, but this was in the early eighties. I have no doubt that Larry has seen the final CST Bylaws and the Closing Agreement of 1993 and has observed that the Bylaws is essentially the same. I also suspect that they were aware that the trustees and the general directors would have to give Miscavige signed undated resignations before their appointments. Larry has made it clear that he is totally satisfied that the ownership of the CofS has not moved out of scientology's hands. Yet I ask whether an undisclosed trust exists, which controls Miscavige or whoever replaces him.

    It should never be forgotten that after he left Clearwater/Dunedin, Hubbard leased a Palm Springs ranch from Karno, who subsequently became Hubbard's attorney and did Hubbard's will for him. Sherman Lenske was a partner in Karo's law practice and both had studied under Meade Emory at the UCLA law school, and it was Lenske who set up Hubbard's pour=over will with the two interlocking trusts. Lenske and Emory were the chief architects of the CST/RTC restructuring. Both were acknowledged experts on trusts and tax law. To suggest that Lenske, Lenske, and Heller's payoffs are attorney's fees misses the point. They are monitoring the operation of the CofS for the US Government.

    If as I suspect, the CIA is using the CofS or more specifically OSA, as a vehicle to gain clandestine access into other countries, then only Miscavige and perhaps the Head of OSA, Rinder, need to know. And both would be so tightly tied up that one false move.... Is this possible? Were renditions possible?

    If Miscavige has done a deal with a government agency, I sure that no one else would be privy to it, and I don't think that Miscavige will be going to make an affidavit stating what he has done, in the near or even distant future.

    Of course, I may well be wrong. And I accept that.

    Regards, David:eyeroll:
  11. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron


    You have a beautiful mind.

    In that I mean, you can connect dots, and think of the impossible as possible, which it always is.

    All the best.....
  12. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    To us, TI, the e-mail is anonymous.

    But mainly, I assume from your question that you know the person who sent you the e-mail containing the text you published. However, did that person originate that text, or was it passed on from another unnamed source? The Snopes link I gave says the CITGO e-mail first surfaced in early 2006.

  13. Romuva

    Romuva Patron Meritorious

    "Chavez is NOW getting a Russian Weapons Factory built by Putin . The
    RUSSIANS are building an AK-47 Kalashnikov Assault Rifle factory in
    Venezuela , to give armament support to Communist Rebel groups throughout
    the Americas "

    I haven't heard of that but maybe that was going on for some time?
    Something like that would be very controversial and it would of showed
    up on baltic news sources,since most of the time baltic countries follow
    very closely what goes on in Russia.You have a situation now in Estonia
    now with the recent removal of a "war memorial" and there's been alot
    of unrest.I hope it doesn't turn into a Yugoslavia type scenario but
    you never know.

    Russia's relationship with Cuba was always close during the soviet union
    so it wouldn't surprise me but Russia making a move on that type of
    percieved expansionist action would be more discussed?

    Maybe not?

    Wow,just found it........maybe I should read the newspaper more......:)
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Hi David,

    Interesting ideas.

    Taking Mayo's write-up at face value, agreed. One piece of circumstantial evidence.

    There seemed to be a quid pro quo with Travolta re his portrayal of pseudo-Clinton in the film "Primary Colors". Clinton is known as a movie buff, as well as for his, er, presidential ethics level.

    Maybe it meant nothing to him either way.


    And admit that the tax-exempt decision was taken as a result of blackmailing a former commissioner?


    OK. (I don't know if these facts are accurate or not, but I am not quibbling about them).

    Wild speculation.

    Again, wild speculation.

    I love "conspiracy theories", or more properly, alternative non-mainstream explanations for world events. I believe that the US "moon landings" didn't take place. I believe that 9/11 was an inside job. I believe that the world is indeed heading for a "New World Order" with each passing day, orchestrated by an elite, with official world governments being mere puppet shows. And lots more. But all these beliefs stem from a great deal of research and viewing of hard evidence. Do I believe that Markabians walk the Earth? No. Why? No real evidence that I have seen.

    I could quite easily accept the idea that some US Gov't agencies were running the CofS. Except I haven't seen any real evidence to support it, and have seen a great deal to suggest otherwise. Yes, it is not theoretically impossible that the CIA remote viewing experiments revealed the potential inherent in "OTs" being used for clandestine observations, as well as the dangers, and someone decided that any tech in use likely to produce such persons should be rendered ineffective one way or another.

    But how do such actions get put into effect? Without anyone noticing! How do these superspy attorneys get their information? How do they relay their orders to Miscavige, or Rinder? By telepathy? By despatch? Cell-phone? E-mail? All without leaving any trace that anyone who has defected--and at one time was highly trusted--had noticed? Or even had any suspicion of? In an environment where paranoia is endemic, e-meters are in constant use, and some people are very perceptive in theta bands of communication?

    How many articles have you seen on the Net, David, where someone like Vicki Aznaran or Jesse Prince, or even recent defectors on XSO or a.r.s. or ESMB have said they saw even one single suspicious item that looked like DM was conspiring with some outside agency? I have spent thousands upon thousands of hours reading about Scn on the Net since 1996, and I don't recall one such item, not a single one.

    Yes, that one Interpol action against Mayo was strange. I don't have a ready explanation for it. It is an outpoint. One outpoint.

    Where are all the other outpoints that don't have simpler explanations?

    Last edited: May 3, 2007
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    All accounts indicate Miscavidge recieves orders from no one. Mayo is not the only one to find harrassment from various authorities. Other people, including a friend in our local FZ group ( The Mentor in the beginners guide TV program) get hassled every time they cross a border. In the latter case the Swiss border. I believe it is easy to arrange that by giving anon information that someone is a drug dealer or terrorist. Interpol would I presume circulate such matters world wide. And your name would be on a list of people to be checked. Note that Mayo was arrested by Drug Police. I expect damaging scientology property would not get one on such a list.

    Zenon Parnousis and Karin Spaink had the same treatment, searched for drugs crossing a border, after one of their court cases in I bekieve Sweden.

    Bill Clinton may have been motivated by the movie Travolta was working on
    per the URL you quoted.

    I think its quite possible that Miscavidge and Rinder have made a deal of some sorts with the CIA. The CIA have used people in civilian companies for a long time. I believe they were impressed by the covert skills displayed by the GO in operation snowhite. OSA operatives do what they are told and operate on a need to know basis. Ha! Civilian operatives already trained in covert ops. Where would the CIA find better better potential recruits? Further taking their orders from Rinder and Miscavidge gices the CIA plausable denial. COS are international. Your comments re this happening in Venezuala seem very possible. I'm sure some suitable exchange could be worked out. Plain cash would probably do.

    The meeting with Interpol seems to be a part of Miscavidge using policy reversely. His use of them seems plain vindictiveness. The Channel 4 film has been made, why have one of the people responsible be still harrassed. But
    thats what Interpol can do for Miscavidge. Not sure what he can do for them other than to stop black PRing them which had been going on for years.
  16. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

  17. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    This Hal Puthoff article gives data re the CIA's interest in remote viewing.

    For some background to the CIA connection, read this. Remember to differentiate between the statements of fact and the conjecture.

    There's more on the Net if you look for it using obvious search terms.

  18. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Y'all have some really great pictures up!
  19. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    The email was sent to me by my cousin, she had forwarded it from someone else and their name was on it so I thought she wrote it.

    Thanks for the link!
  20. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Whenever I get an e-mailed article like that, TI, and I am interested enough to check on its authenticity, I just take a short phrase out of it and Google it (with quotation marks around the phrase). It is surprising how few times a phrase with even common words will appear, unless it is an obvious well-known one.

    Often the article in question will turn up as an urban legend, or hoax.

    If it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean it is valid, but at least it has passed the first test.