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Featured The Cult, the nursery, my escape, and a two handed smoke

Discussion in 'Stories From Inside Scientology' started by ExElronComm, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. ExElronComm

    ExElronComm Patron

    Today on Facebook Tory/Magoo posted on SPs ‘r’ US talking about cult child care and would we please share our stories.

    I responded: “I have a story about the Cult of $’s and it’s nurseries that occurred in October 1987 at SNC where I was personally involved and the case went to court. I haven’t posted much more than my introduction on ESMB but this story has been often on my mind to add to ‘My story from inside $cientology’. I’m going to work on that now; have pulled all the old legal paperwork out of its file. This story also includes the story of my escape where the day I escaped turned into four years of escaping and 9 years in hiding. Thanks for the nudge Tory. I’ve been needing to tell this story for 27 years.”

    Thanks again Tory/Magoo. Here we go…

    Preface: I no longer speak cult speak and couldn’t care any less about the org board and don’t care to try to remember who and what everything was in cult speak. I admire those on the board who seem to have steel trap memories for all that but I’m certainly not one of them! It took me too many years to relearn English and my last cult speak sentence was said to my shrink in the mid 90’s. The shock of my turning on cult speak along with the cult stare shocked him so badly he thought I may have let out an extra personality! I’d given him a standard cult speak response to something he’d asked me. Can’t recall to this day what it was and since that day I’ve had no more cult speak left in me. = YAY!

    The date is 2 October 1987. At the top of the local news are stories of the Presidio Day Care molestations with satanic overtones.

    I’m LC SNC. I gave birth to Ma Bebe’ in April and left her bio dad in May. I’d moved into the master bedroom of SNC’s newly rented nursery house. No better way to make sure it stays up to standards than living there. Prior to this house SNC had kept the nursery in our new building since we’d moved into it. It was on the same floor as class rooms and Exec offices and wasn’t working out well. SNC rented a house to use as the nursery. We had 17 kids, various parents working various hours as nannies, and one nanny on post. According to whoever it was that was on whatever post handles legal, the nursery in the newly rented house was legal according to them and their talk with the county.

    I’m at the org and get a call from the posted nanny. There’s a social worker and a few other people from the county at the nursery can I come? When I get there it’s like ‘tag! You’re it!’ Citation pad is out and questions are fired at me. They’re asking my personal information so they can ticket me for 11 counts; some each misdemeanors and felonies! In my mind I’m thinking; NO; no way I’m going down for this alone.

    I’d been working out a plan for escape in my mind since I’d gotten pregnant. When I was 2-3 months along my Mom came to visit me at the org. When I was walking her out I told her, and the words were out loud for the first time, “I’m thinking about leaving.” I have a picture she took that day of my baby bump. It was one of the happiest days she or I had had since I’d gotten involved with the Cult.

    If I’m going down for this I’m taking the lot of them, the other Execs, with me. I was never part of their ‘gang’ or ‘click’. They’d loved bombed me onto the LC post thinking I’d sign the billion year scrap of paper once I was on. The ED especially. Once I was on and once I’d refused to sign time and time again over the 5 years I was on post she lost all the lovey-dovey real quick and I could do no right. I’d just moved the entire org from one building to another at NO COST TO THE ORG! Didn’t cost them one cent to move and there were NO INTERUPTIONS TO PRODUCTION. I organized it completely with volunteers and had us into the new building in 3 days! The bitch wrote me up for some stupid ass thing I can’t even remember. She was an Ass and her other Execs were the Asses other Asses.

    The Social Worker/Cop is telling me they have to ticket a person, they can’t ticket a business. Well then you can ticket me and the ED and the other Execs because this is not all my responsibility. Hey, no problem, the more tickets the merrier. I signed my ticket and I gave them the Execs names. I called the org and told them who was on the way and who they wanted to see. They fled the ship like rats!! When we got there they were gone!

    My boss in LA at big blue was LC of something or other and she was $O. I got called down there and was to leave that day. I make arrangements for my daughter and I’m on a plane. When I get there it’s once again all about signing an $O contract! Can’t count the number of times I had to go to LA for whatever and whatever ALWAYS turned out with the scrap ‘o crap and a pen in front of me. This time I was locked in an office for 15 hours with it. No food, water, or restroom. Different people coming in with an hour or so in between and spewing their cult crap and pushing and pushing and pushing.

    Luckily for me I’d had PTSD already for many years due to other abuses. My entire life it’s been a breeze for me to compartmentalize my mind. And since my first husband had died when we were 19 I’d learned how to be alone with myself and be comfortable with myself. They’re trying to put me over the edge and my edges were fine, and calm, and quiet, and comfortable, and PISSING THEM OFF!! lol After about 3 days of this a call comes to my boss that there’s a bench warrant for my arrest back at SNC. After I’d been cited they ran a background check and it showed I hadn’t paid off a bill, part of my Chapter 13 of course!, to the city.

    I was told to stay in LA and not to go back to SNC until they said go back. Uh? No. I’m going back. Staying would put me and my child at risk of government interference and I’m not taking that chance. I walked out and across the street, used a pay phone, called a cab, went to the airport and went back to SNC. I wasn’t $O, what the hell were they going to do to me if I left and went back on post?! And what could SNC do to me that was worse than LA had done for years? Nothing.

    So I’m back at SNC and of course all Execs had been located and cited by then. They weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy with them. They’re telling me I blew LA and can’t be on post at SNC till I go back. Hey; okay.

    I went to the police station and was booked on the bench warrant for the unpaid bill to the city. I pay my bail and go home, the nursery. The nursery has been shut down since the day of the original citation. The Cult has moved all the kids back to the org. I can’t be on post until I go back to LA. I’m not going back to LA until I’m sure I’m out of legal trouble. I get a VACA!! :D

    I’ve been sick during all of this. Had had at least 101-102 fever since at least a week before I was cited. I was losing weight and my hair was falling out and I was breastfeeding and trying to keep eating well but to no avail. Finally one night I go to the ER. I have exhaustion, malnutrition, and extremely dehydrated.

    I had worked until I went into labor the previous April. I had Ma Bebe’ at home with a midwife and went back to work with Ma Bebe’ with me 3 days after giving birth. I was working average 86 hours a week. The diagnosis was not a surprise. The Dr gave me a stay home for work note! Yeah, sure. That’ll work with the cult!! lol I was still on vaca so fine.

    I get up the next morning to a knock on the door. It’s Pacific Gas & Electric. Hi, I’m here to turn off the gas and electric. YOU’RE WHAT?!? Oh yeah, the ED and her lovely minions decide without informing me, who paid them rent, that they were going to shut down the house! PG&E had no choice even when I told them I was sick and had a 6 month old in the house. I literally begged. Did no good.

    Now I’m sick and pissed. I get dressed, get her dressed. I have no car and it’s about 5 blocks through residential to get to where I knew there was a phone. Of course the phone in the house had been remotely shut off that morning too!

    I’m walking, dizzy, sick to my stomach, cold, fevered, and proceed to faint, baby in arms, onto someone’s lawn. Don’t know how long I was out. Woke up, got up, and kept on walking. Got to Denny’s, borrowed a dime from a waitress, called my Mom…

    Help me, please. I’ve left the cult, I’m sick, I have Ma Bebe' with me, I’m at Denny’s, please, please come! She came, after over 5 years of cult bullshit; she came. Before she came she called my brother and my step dad. They got trucks, rented a storage room, drove to the nursery house, cleared out all of my things and put them in storage. I was with my daughter and mother at Mom’s house while this was happening. Within 2 hours it was done.

    They knew where my mother lived. But my brother had recently moved so they didn’t know where he lived then. Ma Bebe’ and I went to his place to stay until I could get my life back.

    I’d been at his place decompressing and getting healthier. He smoked weed. I’d smoked weed from early teens until the cult. After being in the cult I used to have nightmares that I’d smoked weed and the cult found out. Very realistic dreams. Great dreams! ;)

    So there’s been weed out and about since I got out. I’d looked at it. I’d considered it. I finally two weeks later thought “what the hell!” I packed a pipe and proceeded to get very, very high…WHOOSAH…

    And there’s a knock on the door… Why of course there’s a knock on the door you say. Why of course it’s the Cult you say. Why of course they’d found me through my brother’s forwarding address you say. Why of course they’d knock just after I’ve gotten high for the first time in years you say. Fuck! Fuck, fuck, fuck! Shit! What do I do now?!?

    I open the door of course. Now, what I knew before opening the door; I’M NEVER GOING BACK! So all’s good. I think it was my fave auditor and can’t recall who the other person was. Both staff though. And they start the spiel. And it spiels on, and on, and on, and… “I’m not going back.” Rinse, repeat… My brother comes home from work. Who are you and what are you doing here? I want you to leave now and don’t come back and don’t send others. SLAM!

    Why’d you let them in? “I was high.” Giggle giggle. hahahah!

    I went to my court date for the bench warrant for the unpaid city bill. I knew it’d be fine. I’d made every payment on my Chapter 13 and knew the cities bill was part of what was paid by the, uh, whatever you call the person who you pay and then they pay the people you owe. I had all of the paperwork, and no attorney. I asked to approach the bench to show my evidence to the judge. I stepped back until he was finished. There’s a whole courtroom of attorneys with clients waiting for the shoe to drop… The judge thanked me for my evidence, said it clearly showed that the cities left hand did not know what the right hand was doing and he dismissed the case. One court case down and the big one to go.

    The first court date for myself and the other Execs was in November. I show up outside of court and see the Execs I haven’t seen for bit over a month. An attorney is with them. He’s a $cientology paid lawyer who is not a Cultist himself. When we are introduced he starts explaining what’s going to happen, reviews the charges, etc. He tells us that he will do the speaking until/unless the judge speaks to any of us.

    We enter the courtroom. The usual court proceedings before the judge. How do we plead to the charges? Exec ED Ass: Guilty. Exec ED’s Asses Ass: Guilty. Other Exec ED’s Asses Ass: Guilty. There may have been one more? Somebody who remembers how many Sr Execs are on the board would know. I’ve compartmentalized the number of Asses Asses there were. ED: J. B. = 1. ED’s Asses Ass: L. A. = 2. ED’s Asses Ass: D. L. = 3. ?ED’s Asses Ass: J. F. ? = 4? Not sure on the last one. Compartmentalized her (We were all female.) to the blocked out portion of my mind.

    Anyway; LC SNC: Not Guilty your honor. I just met the attorney Mr. W. B. C. Jr. not 5 minutes ago and we’ve had no personal discussion of this case together. Ew! Instantly pissed off judge! Mr. W. B.C. Jr. please approach the bench. Discussion, more discussion; red faced judge and cowed attorney. Attorney comes back to me. Please step out in the hall with me so we can talk. Out in the hall we find that even though the Cult/Execs knew exactly where to send my fave auditor and whoever else it was with her they somehow did not know where to find me so that Mr. W. B. C. Jr. could contact and speak with me! We also found that the Cult/Execs had claimed to me that all we had to do was show up in court and everything would be ‘handled’; the cult was paying a lawyer. I know there’s no surprise on the faces of any Exes in the room. ;)

    Mr. W. B. C. Jr. had been on a college football team. Mr. Your Honor the Judge had been his coach! Mr. Your Honor the Judge knew him very well and was extremely angry with him. Mr. Your Honor the Judge told Mr. W. B.C. Jr. to break my case off from the other Execs, and at no cost to me, do his lawyerly duties by me and be back in court in May of 1988. When we back into the courtroom I explained to the Judge that I would work with ‘my’ attorney however, ‘my’ attorney was being paid by an organization that I was no longer a part of. What kind of attorney/client privacy could I be ensured of in order to work with him? The Judge and the attorney worked it out so that all of my information regarding my case would be private between myself and my attorney in a written agreement filed with the court.

    The Execs were then sentenced on the spot. Vague, since it wasn’t my sentencing, but seem to recall: At least $2,000 fine each, 5 years informal probation, and many, many hours of community service.

    My lawyer and I speak. We set up a date for me to meet a case worker who will help the judge determine my possible sentence. I meet with case worker who I tell the story to and she tell me to write it out for the Judge. I do that. The judge has it in hand at our May hearing. We discussed it.

    How I got in, how long in, why out now, what do I do now? Who was in charge of what, how does that work, 17 kids, many nannies, one paid nanny = oops; not exempt from day care law.

    “One more area I’d like to mention before I finish this report is: Part Time staff in the Church work usually 4 to 5 hours a night on week nights, and 8 to 9 hours on Saturday and Sunday. Full Time staff work from 9:30am to midnight or later on weekdays and 8 to 9 hours on Saturday and Sunday (every few weeks or so you’d have a Saturday or Sunday off) and often work Saturday and/or Sunday nights. The average hours for a full time staff member are 86 hours a week. As a Senior Executive for the Church last year I made $6,700.00 for the WHOLE year. This position being my only means of support. Working for the Church is a commitment which is obviously not made on the basis of money or time, but a desire to support its work. The only reason I mention it in this report is to show:


    1. How many nurseries can operate these hours?
    2. How many UNPAID individuals can you find to work in a nursery with approximately 17 children for these hours?
    3. How can an average staff member, especially full time with no other means of income, afford day-care for their children?
    4. How can one individual handle the running of a nursery with one paid nanny, two or three volunteer nannies who worked a couple hours a week and no financial support from the church, and nothing but food and sometimes diapers provided by the parents when they could afford it?
    5. How can one individual find “baby sitters” for 17 different children for average 86 hours a week and no pay?

    I could probably think of more of these if I took the time but I think you will see at least part of what lead me to breaking my contract and leaving the Church. I was the individual expected to do the above and I ran out of “cope”. On top of this I was not backed up when I did take the responsibility for the group in signing the ticket, and being the fall guy. I will not lesson my responsibility in this situation as one of the executives in the decision making process but per the Policies of the Church I had my area of expertise and unluckily for me it was not the legal nor the financial area.

    I could get into what I would have done differently if I knew then what I know now but it didn’t happen that way.”

    He asked about care for the children from the nursery now. I told him that I’d heard that they’d moved back into the org, with the same parents and nanny as before. He said the county had checked there recently and the kids weren’t there. I told them that I’d heard that even though the nursery was there that they’d take the kids out to…wherever each day so it would seem like they weren’t there if someone checked.

    We discussed my new job, new day care, having an actual income and a car and medical coverage for myself and Ma Bebe’.

    My sentencing was in June 1988. I plead guilty to a municipal misdemeanor; Operating a day care facility without a license.

    Sentence for said offense: 1 year informal probation (Do not report, break no laws.) No $ fine. 40 hours of community service. I requested I be able to do my community service at the Cult. Surprised now!? Surely not. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

    By this time I’m being threatened by the cult, and ED’s Exec Asses Ass D. L. that if I don’t come back on post they, the cult, will help my daughter’s bio dad take her from me. So, doing community service time at the cult kept me on the fence riding that fine line of being out and having to act in.

    What did they give me to do for my community service? Why I was/had been the LC SNC. They gave me the completions book and certs and I did as I’d always done; I printed/did the calligraphy on the via a computer program for certs. I’d done many previously as LC, and by hand; even my own Clear cert that is also signed by me. I take the completions book home and start doing certs. I hated doing completions like this for the cult but you gotta do what you gotta do. 40 hours of computer generated certs is a hell of a lot of certs. The completions book went back many, many years and had all completions to date.

    I finished doing my time 22 November 1988. By that time there was an $O LC on post and I was mostly, but not completely forgotten. I hadn’t been on post since November 1987 and my contract wasn’t up until December 1988. After my 40 hours service was done I never went back to the org. I was called for crap I never went to and they came to reg me repeatedly and I was threatened with taking Ma Bebe’, and being declared. Basically all the same harassment without being on post.

    By then there was a month left on my contract. I hadn’t been on post for a year. They never tried to route me out or give me a freeloader’s debt or declare me. I think because in the court room and with the attorney they’d paid for and a judge they’d pissed off, they must’ve thought it better to not fuck with me anymore.

    They were right. I have every receipt for everything I paid for while in. I have every haha pay haha stub I ever received. I have every court document involved and I know an attorney who knows how the cult operates and never took another case for them. And Mr. W. B. C. Jr. personally knows Mr. Your Honor Judge P. who also knows how the cult operates, even if Mr. Your Honor Judge P. may be off the bench now.

    I rode that fence and put up with the calls, harassment, regging, threats, until I had enough saved to leave. I took Ma Bebe’ into hiding for the next 9 years. No, I didn’t forward my address!! ;)

    But, the big question after all of this is? I wonder what happened to that completions book…?

    Afterword: This was written off the top of my head one word after another. I didn’t go back over it because a little OCD goes a long way and I’d never get it posted. I know it’s long but I hope, if you made it to the end, that you found it an ok read. To this day I still cannot post about the Cult without having afterwards the physical response of my heart pounding, uncontrollable full body shaking as if in physical shock, hot/cold sweats, and vision greying in and out; for hours. I need two hands to get a stinking cigarette, fork, or weed pipe, to my mouth. All of the same physical reactions I had when I went to a shrink for the first time 7-8 years after leaving the cult. He asked my why it was happening. I told him it’s because in the cult psychiatry equals death and my body thinks I’m going to actually die because I’m here seeing you, telling you everything. It’s the same when I post online about the cult. It’s been 27 years since I left and my body remembers the fear of talking against the Cult of $’s.

    Going to post and go have a two handed smoke now…
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  2. Honey, you should write a book!!! :thumbsup: Thanks very much for sharing your story with us. :yes:
     
  3. Miss Ellie

    Miss Ellie Miss Ellie

    You are a very smart lady & a hell of a mom. You got the two of you out, you screwed them over, you got help & you moved on.

    I understand about the fear. I had them thinking I was dead... then a phone call out of the blue. I stood there screaming how did you find me, leave me alone, etc. Slammed the phone down. The poor hubby, who had never been in, was stunned - ask if we needed to get a gun. Their constant calls got me over the fear & got me pissed. Then got me jacking with them... and enjoying it.

    You are doing great.....

    :thumbsup:
     
  4. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

  5. ExElronComm

    ExElronComm Patron

    Thanks. I've thought about writing a book and had family mention that I should. Can't imagine how long my body responses would last after publishing a book! :nervous:
     
  6. ExElronComm

    ExElronComm Patron

    Thank you SuzyQ! I did do all that didn't I?! Feels good to tell about it to people who certainly understand. My shrink was great but I don't think he really believed it all.

    Can only imagine your shock when they found you not 'dead'!! I liked jacking with them too but they don't call me anymore and I can't say I miss them.
     
  7. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Welcome ExElronComm! Thanks for sharing your story. :thumbsup:

    I really want to fully read it but I keep running into the acronym SNC.

    I knowSNC was up in No California somewhere but what does SNC stands for?

    Thank you:)
     
  8. ExElronComm

    ExElronComm Patron

    Thank you AnonyMary :) SNC is the old telex name for Stevens Creek Org.
     
  9. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Hi ExElronComm! Welcome to ESMB! :welcome2:

    What an extraordinary woman you are!! :clap: :clap: :clap: I can't thank you enough for reporting on that nursery to the police, for standing up for yourself in court, for putting your integrity ahead of everything else.

    I also worked as a nanny in the Sea Org, in a nursery with about 20 toddlers under my care. It was shocking, horrible. So I can relate to your story and the effect it had on you, and how, as a mother, you wanted nothing more than to ensure you and your baby were okay but you didn't want to desert the other children without helping them.

    You done good. :thumbsup:

    I am so sorry you had to go through that horrible experience, but I'm very glad you are out, and that you found Tory (we love Tory!) and through her, you found us.

    Have your smoke and relax. You are with friends now and you can talk about it if you wish.

    But you don't have to, either. Sometimes we just have fun laughing at the stupidity of Scientology. Laughter helps heal.

    Love,

    Sheila
     
  10. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanx for that amazing bit of writing:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

    I've seen how the cult "operates" child-care and lost a daughter to it.:angry:

    In my personal experience, writing it all down does lessen the reactions to the horrors that we all endured - so I do hope you'll do more of it as you communicate that crazyness of cultdom very, very well.:yes:

    Looking forward to moar:drama:
     
  11. ExElronComm

    ExElronComm Patron

    Scooter, I'm so, so sorry about your daughter. There are no words... My heart to both of you. And, thank you.
     
  12. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Wow, thankyou, thankyou!
    Spellbound with your story, I love the way you write.

    In my experience, the physical reactions do lessen with time and putting incidents into perspective. There is so much drama and squashed emotion and fear connected with scientology that it can take a while to find all those pimples to squeeze so they can heal. It hurts when you do it but the feeling better is so good. And it helps other people, it really does.
     
  13. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    I'll toke to you, and say good on ya.
    Glad you came here.:)

    phenomanon
     
  14. Udarnik

    Udarnik Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you for your story, ElronExComm. They can't get at you now, and there is a network of people who will come to your aid if they try.

    I can't help but read this and think of that Indie nursery in Taipei where that baby died of the flu.

    Helen Chen needs to go to prison for perpetuating this shit.
     
  15. Loohan

    Loohan Am I Mettaya?

    Great story, and glad you survived it, despite handicaps.
    The greatest test of a thetan is the ability to make things go right, after all.

    To digress slightly, you said
    "After being in the cult I used to have nightmares that I’d smoked weed and the cult found out. Very realistic dreams. Great dreams! ;)"

    Personally i stopped smoking in early '79, a few months before i got into the cult. And never smoked again until early '90, almost 3 years after i blew staff.
    But for a period there around 1986, while i was on staff, i kept getting recurrent dreams of smoking pot. I had no desire to in waking life, but i kept having these dreams that were like on a parallel time-stream. The weird thing is there was continuity to the dreams. I would find myself smoking dope and deriving satisfaction from it, and thinking, "Whoa, why did i think i haven't reverted? (remembering the times in previous dreams that i'd smoked). "I do have a big withhold. I have been smoking dope. Why did i forget this and deny it?":duh:
    Then i would wake up and remember (again) "Oh no wait! I did not do anything out-ethics and ruin my "case". I haven't smoked after all. Whew!":happydance:

    But then a few nights later, i would have one of those dreams again. :bong: "Wait! Why did i believe i haven't reverted???":melodramatic:

    Eventually it read on a metered correction list or something: "Have you taken drugs?"
    I explained the truth of the matter and it cleared up the needle. I may have stopped having those dreams at that point.
     
  16. Daisy

    Daisy Patron with Honors

    Hello, good to see you posting. I know how you feel. For me things got easier everytime I spoke out or protested.

    I do remember the nursery on the second floor. Sometimes I would walk by from the course room but never saw the inside. I recall hearing something about having some legal problem having to do with the nursery but never got more data. Thanks for filling up some holes.

    I figured out who everyone was except JF. What was her post? It will be bugging me all day. Maybe DF? They are still in the cult!

    So glad you are out and with your baby. Well I guess our kids aren't babies anymore. :)

    Welcome, welcome.
     
  17. Arthur Dent

    Arthur Dent Silver Meritorious Patron

    Great story, ExElronComm!
    Impressive how you severed yourself in the law suit, away from the poison!
    Scientology nurseries, generally, were no better than SC, as memory serves me.
    It was usually a place of neglect, dirt, squalor, smells, parents on post til forever, no money, it goes on.

    So glad you left when you did!
    The shakes go away. Just keep reading and posting and it will fade to nothing.
    I was terrified when I first posted here. :hide: I thought my doorbell was going to ring the second I hit send.
    And now, if it did, I think I'd just throw them out and laugh. And post some more.
    So good that you had such a supportive family, too!
     
  18. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    I'm glad you had the courage to post your experiences for others to read. It can be very scary at first. I was scared when I wrote my story, but I found out that doing it helped me a lot to unbury myself from it all.

    Just take it one step at a time......take your time writing the book......as you do so, you might find yourself bleeding off a lot of the charge stored up from all these horrible experiences. Just do a little bit at a time. Then....later on consider whether you want to publish it or not. Maybe you could work with someone else while you are writing it...a little bit at a time....so that you aren't trying to do it all alone.
     
  19. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Udarnik, I don't know how what happened with Helen Chen's mission fell in priority or why it didn't make it to be posted on ESMB, because your post really shocked me. Thanks for bringing this up so I can be aware of this. I found the link on WWP, though: https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/independent-scientologists-killed-baby.109231/

    This really upset me. :bigcry:

    ElronExComm, these abusive practices toward children were started by L Ron Hubbard - and any time that dead cult leader's policies are followed, it is the innocent that suffer - especially the children.
     
  20. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hey Sheila,

    It did appear on ESMB. Udarnik started this thread:

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?34163-Helmut-Flasch-and-Helen-Chen&highlight=helen+chen