ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



The E-Meter As A Delusion Facilitator

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Kha Khan, Mar 30, 2009.

View Users: View Users
  1. Kha Khan

    Kha Khan Patron Meritorious

    In another thread:
    While I included the first sentence for context, the second sentence is exceptionally important. This is very perceptive.

    When used in a sec check or auditing, an e-meter does not detect truth. It does not detect what "is."

    The e-meter detects what the pc believes to be true. It detects what the pc believes. It detects what "is" for the pc, but only for the pc.

    If you believe that purple dinosaurs live in your back yard, the e-meter will confirm that you believe that purple dinosaurs live in your back yard. That does not mean that purple dinosaurs do, in fact, live in your back yard.

    Consider. You are taught there are past lives. You are coached there are past lives. You are instructed there are past lives. The lectures. The meter training where you must pinpoint whether something happened 50 billion to 75 billion years ago.

    And if you do not go "past life," then something is wrong. Wrong with you. Or wrong with the auditing. By definition. So a repair is called for. Or an investigation -- retread -- cramm -- etc., etc. of the auditor. File review.

    Expense. Delay. Embarrassment. Cost. Social disruption.

    And if you protest? Ostracized. Disconnection.

    Consider. You are taught there are body thetans. You are instructed there are body thetans. Indeed, you are taught and instructed that your problems, your weaknesses, are caused by your body thetans.

    And if you fail to communicate with your body thetans? If the thetan hand technique does not work?

    Expense. Delay. Embarrassment. Cost. Social disruption.

    And if you protest? Ostracized. Disconnection.

    So you recall past life events. And the e-meter "confirms" your recollection.

    Does that mean you actually had the past life experiences? That they are real? No. The meter read confirms only that you now believe that you did.

    I wonder why.

    So you communicate with your body thetans.

    Does that mean you actually have body thetans? That they are real? No. The meter read confirms only that you now believe that you have body thetans.

    Again, I wonder why.

    The e-meter. A wonderful tool for confront and abreaction therapy, otherwise known as clearing.

    The e-meter. A wonderful tool for aiding and facilitating the implanting of delusional ideas .

    That you believe something is true doesn't make it true. That the e-meter confirms that you believe something is true doesn't make it true.

    Oh, and for the relief or benefit some receive from the upper levels?

    Assume someone convinces you that you have cancer. You truly believe you have cancer. Then they convince you that you do not have cancer. You now truly believe that you don't have cancer. Wouldn't you be relieved?

    Assume someone convinces you that your problems are caused by body thetans. Forgetful body thetans. Drugged body thetans. You truly believe that your problems are caused by body thetans. Then they convince you that your troublesome body thetans have been removed. The e-meter confirms it! They are gone! Wouldn't you be relieved? Wouldn't that be a weight off of your shoulders?

    Until, perhaps, you continue to have headaches. Or problems with your spouse. Or, when you are honest with yourself, the OT Committee really can't seem to make it go right, or go at all. Or....


    So let me ask you, did you see three lights, or four?

    ********
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2009
  2. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    It doesn't react based on what you believe. It reacts based on how you feel about what you believe. It reacts on fight/flight.
     
  3. Kha Khan

    Kha Khan Patron Meritorious

    That may be true. But the foundation is your belief.

    The e-meter cannot tell if you have purple dinosaurs in your backyard. It can only detect whether you react to the idea that you have purple dinosaurs in your backyard.

    You state, "I have purple dinosaurs in my backyard." Your needle is floating. You are VGI. Obviously, that must mean that you have purple dinosaurs in your backyard.

    You communicate with and remove a body thetan. Your needle is floating. You are VGI. Obviously, that must mean that you have successfully communicated with and removed a body thetan.

    Do that enough, and we'll give you a large certificate, put you on stage, and applaud.
     
  4. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    I think that the e-meter reacts on the sudden recognition of what is being asked for.

    The person looks and if he/she recognizes something there, which, in his opinion, is what is being asked for, then the meter will respond to that recognition.

    It is a subjective thing.

    .
     
  5. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Ron seemed to think the E-meter *was* a 'truth detector'/divination tool. And, used it that way.

    Zinj
     
  6. Been Done Had

    Been Done Had Patron with Honors

    The meter may just be a for divination, depending how you define that. On second thought, not.

    To divine means intution or supernatural forces are at work. The meter detects a PROVEN physiological reaction of the nervous system. It does seem to ride the edge between body and mind. Mainline psychiatry has demonstrated that emotionally loaded words create measurable change with a GSR meter (E-meter).

    LRH says the meter is measuring the bank (subconscious) at just below the PC's awareness level. It's indicating charge (emotional loading? not sure how to wogify the term charge) just below the surface.

    The auditor asks a question, if the needle deflects, then the auditor asks follow up questions to help guide the PC to the information. The meter helps the PC know where to look and helps the auditor know where to work.

    LRH always said PC indicators are senior to the meter, recently that's changed though.

    Regarding sec checks, they have become an abusive control mechanism. The only data the auditor will have is the needle deflected on a question, indicating something is there. Now if the PC is evasive and not really "in" session, you can't take that question to an F/N.

    The meter isn't divinitory. Or magic. It's a tool. Like a hammer. And when meter, PC and auditor are working together, some amazing stuff can happen. As in genuine relief and gains and growth. I swear to God.:)

    And that is the tiny little carrot at the end of the ethics stick. :coolwink:
     
  7. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

  8. Thrak

    Thrak Gold Meritorious Patron

    The e-meter reacts to reactions. I think that's about all you can say for sure.
     
  9. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Kha Khan,

    Excellent thread! :thumbsup:

    Yes, the e-meter reads on both real and imaginary stuff.
    It's the imaginary stuff that leads one down the rabbit hole to delusion.
     
  10. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Yes, yes, yes, people can be lead to think that because something reads, it is "true". That's complete hogwash, though. If something reads, it basically reads on increases in cortical arousal, which is typically due to emotion generated in the amygdala, whether this reaches conscious awareness or not. The amygdala is the center of the brain which is responsible for fight/flight, if'n I remember correctly.

    See the following article, or ignore it, whatever, but it sums up the best expression yet that I've seen of what the meter actually does.

    http://www.trans4mind.com/transformation/transform4.4.htm
     
  11. AnonOrange

    AnonOrange Gold Meritorious Patron

    Excellent original post (and the rest of them). You really understand the deceit of scientology.

    LRH may have been deluded himself and so are most people currently in. I'm actually not sure if LRH a smart con man, a deluded believer or simply insane ?

    Most pseudoscience is promoted by deluded people, not necessarily dishonest people.
     
  12. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    No argument there, however in my unwaverable opinion on this matter, it can and does detect the 'truth of' or 'what's there for' the pc (as you have said).

    This however is only so, given the premise "If the meter reads, all you know is that the meter read". In addition to that, as has already been stated, if one was to give more credibility to what the meter was doing, than what was happening to the pc, then the e-meter as a workable tool is defunct.

    In my last years while on lines in scn, I was on the receiving end of several who were using the meter as a "truth/lie detector" and at times a "delusion facilitator" - not fun. I don't know how LRH used it or intended it, or wtf he did, and I'm aware that it has been used in negative ways. However, I used it as a tool with due regard for it's limitations, and as a result of doing so some of the results were outstanding, and would not have been achieved without it. :)
     
  13. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    I thought the e-meter was suppose to register on 'disagreements'.

    Who hasn't done the pinch test? Let the guy watch the needle, pinch him without warning, the needle falls. Then, If he doesn't drop the cans and punch you, tell him to recall the pinch, and the needle falls again. If you try to use it as a lie detector and ask the guy 'did you murder Miss Scarlet?' and you disagree with Miss Scarlett being murdered, the needle falls, right?
     
  14. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    No auditor actually trained in the use of the e-meter thinks of an e-meter as a lie-detector. It simply does what it does.

    IMO, it simply points to things, those things being determined upon investigation by the auditor and pc.

    Most people who have done OT2 or witnessed the particular needle phenomena associated with OT2 know that it definitely reads on "something" other than what the pc is consciously thinking.
     
  15. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    There are many references on the e-meter reading on "yes" - as in:

    - "Do you have an ARC break?"...fall = "yes"

    - "Is there a protest?"...fall = "yes"

    - "What fruit do you like best?"
    "apples?"... x
    "oranges?"... x
    "mangoes?"... long fall blow down = yes, yes, yes!
    "apricots?"...fall = yes

    - "Do others have a problem with you?"...fall = yes.


    All the while keeping in mind though, that if the meter reads, all you know is, is that the meter read.

    Anyway, that's what I learnt, or the concept that I had (based on what I studied), and the concept I applied.
     
  16. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    K'n'oath Panda! :thumbsup:
     
  17. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    No. The meter reads a neurological reaction, evidently of the brain. The connection is via the electrical functioning of the nervous system.

    The foundation of the "read" is the "mind's reaction" to a specific "meaning" or "concept". This foundation has an emotional character. The type and degree of emotion can produce a corresponding meter read via the neurological system. Higher level thought is typically too slow to register directly as the "instant read" typically looked for in auditing. It takes a person a bit of time to be aware of what he is thinking. Additonally, thoughts aren't especially "reactive" in themselves. It's the areas of emotional "charge" associated with thoughts that are looked for in auditing.

    Meters can be useful in identifying "charged areas" especially when that "charge" is suppressed. The suppression is often not conscious to the pc, hence the utility of the meter. Meters are not strictly necessary. To a competent auditor other indicators of the presence of "charge" are often recognizable in a pc. However, meters are handy and can simplify auditing when used well. :)

    n.b. "Mind" is in quotes above because there is considerable (and heated) intellectual argument (and not much agreement) over the nature of "mind". "Mind" is distinct from brain. Brain is a physical mechanism with an apparent objective basis. "Mind" is the subjective experience of perception & consciousness.


    Mark A. Baker
     
  18. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    "Not strictly necessary", in all cases?

    I'd agree that in some scenarios, e-meters wouldn't be necessary if and when applying "Scn tech", but in some scenarios, I think that they definately would be.

    What about the scenario, where you've got a pc who is as solid as a brick shit house, one who has been "forced" or "co-erced" to the AO, for some case cracking. In the beginning he "hates" ya, and isn't a willing participant particularly, despite the fact that he has some 'hope' that it'll work.

    In the beginning his TA is at 5, he's not budging, the needle is stuck, and the solid facade he's maintaining isn't changing, so ya can't see a bloody thing except a ridge. Thank goodness for the meter in that case. You'd pretty well be stuffed without it if you were trying to audit the guy, IMO.

    Then, as you strip stuff off, bit by bit, the TA starts to come down, the needle gets freer, pc indicators start to become apparent, and at that point the meter may not be a necessary aid. Prior to that though, I reckon you'd be stuffed without it (I know I would have been, when I think of three in particular who I audited in the mid eighties - all men btw :coolwink: ).
     
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Suggest that you take a look at the "Clearing Course" and "OT 2," where the person is told he/she will "see a light to the front and to the left," and it is there, and the person is told he/she will see other things too, and the person is told that these will react on the meter, and to "go by an unreading item can be deadly," etc., and take a look at "OT 3" also.

    Hubbard hypno-mind-games mixed with actual auditing - a very impolite practical joke to play on someone who has trustingly opened up his/her mind so as to travel the "Bridge to Total Freedom."

    This area has been covered, and I don't want to rehash it, but the nice and neat explanations for how a meter is used change once one enters the "Implantology" levels of Scientology, even though some actual auditing can still take place, and that's acknowledged, but the suggestive and manipulative factors become dominant.

    I think that e-meters have some limited usefulness (if the person wants to use one), but, in Scientology, (including the Freezone) they're used manipulatively to mislead, and also, in corporate $cientology, at least, as police interrogation devices, to dominate, and to enforce "thought-crime" control.

    As early as 1951/52, when an early demonstration e-meter was used, and reads were shown - projected on a wall - and the crowd went ooo! and ah!, Hubbard could see the potential for manipulation. That was a period when Hubbard touched upon many things, of a manipulative, coercive, and dark nature, that he would then neglect for a decade, before pulling them out of his bag of tricks in the 1960s.
     
  20. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor


    Well, under the circumstance you describe and from the auditor's perspective a meter would certainly be a necessity. You are certainly not likely to achieve much without one. However, that situation is "doomed" as it lacks a willing pc and thus is already in violation of the Auditor's Code. Not accusing YOU, of course. I know that's how the Co$ works (to my mind a big part of the problem).

    Still, a better course of action might have been to 2wc the pc to either get ruds in and agreement for a session or to let him go on his merry way. Admittedly, that's a bit of a "luxury" for Co$ auditors. :whistling:


    Mark A. Baker