"The IAS and its Volunteer Minister Crusade are a scam."

[Bigsteveo52]

why should they get a "break"? In what way should they get a break? what sort of break would it be? They oppressed scientologists and tried to destroy exes and critics. It wasn't a fucking game where everyone gets to take a break and meet by the water cooler. They ran an organization that attempted to send critics to jail. It was *serious*.

I do not understand the attitude. I don;t spend my time and effort trying to attack them both, I ignore them for the most part I only respond when i see sycophantic posts from Terrill or like minded people.

I will give them both the time of day and the "break" when they lay out all the ops they did, the people they attempted to destroy and all the rest of it. and not in some book they want to make money off of but in open letters to those they attacked.

This may sound harsh - but your post seems to tell me that you think they should be treated like a couple of teenagers who did a little harmless shoplifting and should now get a break because they confessed it. I am not sure you understand what they and the organization they were commanding parts of - were trying to do.

I think any person who truly seeks redemption should be given the opportunity to acquire it. Certainly, there are many instances where one needs to make up for the damage done, but the quality and quantity of make up demanded will vary from person to person. For instance, if you stole something from me I may forgive you and let the matter rest if you returned the item and if I felt your apology was genuine and sincere. On the other hand, If I stole something from you, only prison time for me would be a sufficient pay back, regardless of any epiphanies I may have regarding my conduct in life much less any sincere apologies. As for Mike and Marty, I only know them from what I read, and, to me, they are doing all they can to make up the damage done during their time in the COS, evidenced by what they write in their books, blogs and websites exposing the abuses within the COS. They are the most credible voices on the planet in this regard and they express themselves from a position of vast understanding. I admire and appreciate these guys. I like what they write and I relate to what they write. They seem like extraordinary, very well intentioned individuals, and guys that would come to bat for you if they were on your team. They got sucked in to the abuses and dismal activities within Miscavaige's house of horrors just like I would have and just like you would have had we been there at the right time and place. And you and I would have gone along with the status quo and done our fair share of hitting and screaming and abusing if we felt it was the "right thing to do", particularly if we were young, impressionable men as they were. We all screw up. Sometimes we get caught up in the wrong crowd. Any crowd with Miscavaige in it is the wrong crowd and they just got sucked into it. For your sake as much as anyone's give them a break. Forgive them of their transgressions and listen to what they're trying to do here and now. Good luck!

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I think any person who truly seeks redemption should be given the opportunity to acquire it. Certainly, there are many instances where one needs to make up for the damage done, but the quality and quantity of make up demanded will vary from person to person. For instance, if you stole something from me I may forgive you and let the matter rest if you returned the item and if I felt your apology was genuine and sincere. On the other hand, If I stole something from you, only prison time for me would be a sufficient pay back, regardless of any epiphanies I may have regarding my conduct in life much less any sincere apologies. As for Mike and Marty, I only know them from what I read, and, to me, they are doing all they can to make up the damage done during their time in the COS, evidenced by what they write in their books, blogs and websites exposing the abuses within the COS. They are the most credible voices on the planet in this regard and they express themselves from a position of vast understanding. I admire and appreciate these guys. I like what they write and I relate to what they write. They seem like extraordinary, very well intentioned individuals, and guys that would come to bat for you if they were on your team. They got sucked in to the abuses and dismal activities within Miscavaige's house of horrors just like I would have and just like you would have had we been there at the right time and place. And you and I would have gone along with the status quo and done our fair share of hitting and screaming and abusing if we felt it was the "right thing to do", particularly if we were young, impressionable men as they were. We all screw up. Sometimes we get caught up in the wrong crowd. Any crowd with Miscavaige in it is the wrong crowd and they just got sucked into it. For your sake as much as anyone's give them a break. Forgive them of their transgressions and listen to what they're trying to do here and now. Good luck!

'The most credible voices on the planet'?

I do agree that they have 'cred' ..... at the moment (while they are being very careful how they word things) but only with Indies, people that are still hubbard supporters/scientologists.

Yippee doo.

I don't think many critics have much (if any) actual 'cred' in real society either though.

Such is life.

 

[Smurf]

Are you back in the cult ?

 

[Terril park]

Well Terrill - writing a self serving blog and wannabe pseudo-intellectual books that attempt to be profound - well you are easily pleased.

Rinder is trying to crush people - he is trying to crush Miscavige for example. I doubt he is doing any better at that.

He ran away from fighting Miscavige - if he had seen the light he was in the perfect position to release the full information to the world - he had access to almost everything. he could have done it - HE CHOSE NOT TO.

remember those words terrill - both of those people that you are busily tongue bathing had the chance to expose EVERYTHING - together with the proof. They had access to the files, the bills, the reports.

THEY CHOSE NOT TO EXPOSE IT. They chose to keep the secrets because they were afraid.

Believe it or not Terrill I admire YOU much more than either of those two. I may not like what you say a lot of the time and I have enormous distaste for your fawning over them but at least you have stood in the open and stood your ground.

Thanks Mick, and having visited and seen how your son is looked after
you and your wife are forever Kha Khan in my eyes. Fuck the 9 lives gig! Anyone interested why just ask me

I consider trying to crush Miscavidge a noble goal. Having attended almost every Anon protest I've put my feet where my money is. and sometimes my vocal cords!

MICK

"He ran away from fighting Miscavige - if he had seen the light he was in the perfect position to release the full information to the world - he had access to almost everything. he could have done it - HE CHOSE NOT TO.

remember those words terrill - both of those people that you are busily tongue bathing had the chance to expose EVERYTHING - together with the proof. They had access to the files, the bills, the reports."

TP

They are doing a fair bit of that now.

Why not mail and ask them directly any questions?

That don't work I can ask them on your behalf. That
don't work I have other possibilities.

Today met my half brothers family again who live near you and where
I stayed when we met. Beautiful family

 

[clamicide]

I think any person who truly seeks redemption should be given the opportunity to acquire it. Certainly, there are many instances where one needs to make up for the damage done, but the quality and quantity of make up demanded will vary from person to person. For instance, if you stole something from me I may forgive you and let the matter rest if you returned the item and if I felt your apology was genuine and sincere. On the other hand, If I stole something from you, only prison time for me would be a sufficient pay back, regardless of any epiphanies I may have regarding my conduct in life much less any sincere apologies. As for Mike and Marty, I only know them from what I read, and, to me, they are doing all they can to make up the damage done during their time in the COS, evidenced by what they write in their books, blogs and websites exposing the abuses within the COS. They are the most credible voices on the planet in this regard and they express themselves from a position of vast understanding. I admire and appreciate these guys. I like what they write and I relate to what they write. They seem like extraordinary, very well intentioned individuals, and guys that would come to bat for you if they were on your team. They got sucked in to the abuses and dismal activities within Miscavaige's house of horrors just like I would have and just like you would have had we been there at the right time and place. And you and I would have gone along with the status quo and done our fair share of hitting and screaming and abusing if we felt it was the "right thing to do", particularly if we were young, impressionable men as they were. We all screw up. Sometimes we get caught up in the wrong crowd. Any crowd with Miscavaige in it is the wrong crowd and they just got sucked into it. For your sake as much as anyone's give them a break. Forgive them of their transgressions and listen to what they're trying to do here and now. Good luck!

I don't know if you truly know the evil fucked up stuff these 2 were involved with... writing a blog and promoting yourself is not freaking atonement. I understand Stockholm Syndrome; I'm very aware that folks who are involved in cults do things they NEVER would have dreamed of; I've read so much freaking social psychology since I've been out, I feel like I should have a freaking degree.

I see how they bitch about how evil DM is for following them, without saying much about the ops they did on others. Also, I read the initial stuff that Marty came out with where he was upset that people wanted him to go to the FBI. And he bitched that he didn't want to go to them, because 'they' had followed him and put him behind bars when he was doing stuff that was reprehensible. So, DM must pay, but he can't go to authorities, because they were trying to shut him down when he was doing the same things? So, they are evil, because... they... attacked Marty?

Cognitive dissonance much? I'm not saying I necessarily think the FBI is all shiny and clean, but he doesn't want to go to them, because they were trying to stop (by whatever means necessary) the stuff he says absolutely needs to be stopped?

Not so long ago, Marty would be cheering the squirrel-busters... now he's a target.

I'm rambling, and I'm sorry. They just had such a hand in actively working to destroy people's lives. And I mean, totally outright destroy. Maybe they just can't even face what they've done. But, when I see them paraded as heroes, it just sort of bugs me.

For Geeks and Other Firefly Fans: the episode "Jaynestown". Just sayin'.

 

[hpm1999]

point taken

Thank you and not to be a dead horse- but why the hell not since we are dealing with DM and CO$
http://www.watchman.org/sci/scientologycamps.htm

 

[hpm1999]

Clearly people have taken Marty up on his offer.

He's written an ongoing blog and 3 books which include explaining himself.
Just bought the third.

Rinder is quite definitely not involved anymore with crushing people.

I have read his first two books & I hope this is taken as civil discourse (and thanks to all who are willing to engage in heated but civil discourse between people who share a common past):

From my view Marty has not "manned up" to his past- nor taken adult responsibility for the actions he took as a "willing and useful idiot" in the service of David Miscavage and the Cult. By his own admission he knew he was doing wrong- but most of his effort is explaining away the mistakes and warped nature of CO$- using DM as the scapegoat (deservedly). But I found little by way of explaining his own actions as a useful idiot and his own work in building on Hubbard's monstrosity.

Free auditing- as far as I am concerned Marty was complicit (as was I BTW in my own involvement as a mere public) in stealing ~ $ 250,000 that I (willingly I admit) gave the CO$ for what was nothing more than a gobbelydigook scam- and 9 years of my life. When you multiply my own history by tens of thousands (and I escaped lightly compared to others) the CO$'s minions who perpetuated this fraud are accountable for millions upon millions of dollars which is nothing compared to the years of indentured servitude inflicted upon staff esp SO members.

So if he were 5% complicit (and I submit that number is far to low) he is responsible for, in effect, the theft of millions of dollars and enslavement of thousands.

There is forgiveness- but there are also should be CONSEQUENCES to actions. I can forgive a thief but that does not mean they should not serve jail time.

 

[hpm1999]

This is his first post ... where he just promoted his webpage, it didn't go down well.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?9794-movin-on-up&p=202410#post202410



This is the second and last post (made just before he flounced off) ... I've broken it up a bit just to make it readable.

There's little doubt that he has come a long way, he sounded completely insane when he posted here and I'm really glad he's moving on.

I think your use of the word 'effective' was what amused me Terril, but I suppose it depends from which side of the molehill you're viewing the whole sad saga from. An 'effective' scientologist who is effectively trying to keep hubbards name in lights is (to me) a complete waste of space and not to be taken seriously.

I personally don't feel the need to see M&M ostracised though ... they're out of the cult (physically) now and living with anything they did while caught up in the madness (as we all have to). I could understand it if the people that were directly affected wanted to see them brought to justice but at this stage that doesn't seem to be an issue.



http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?9819-movin-on-up-II&p=203263&viewfull=1#post203263

Thank you for posting this- it shows that the koolaide still flows in their veins. He knows better than to post- because he would have to face up to what he was and did. No, he can keep to his little walled off blog and keep the demons that must haunt him at bay. Deflecting the light of truth from what Hubbard was (and CO$ & DM are simply direct reflections of Hubbard taken to a logical conclusion) is either a cosmic joke by MR or a reflection of his own insane make believe world which I think he inhabits.
I am sorry I peeked at his blog- it makes me want to puke- reading his "oh Horrors here goes the CO$ again" somehow sickens me. The man HAS TO KNOW somewhere in the back of his soul that he perpetuated and enabled the machine that continues to roll on its sick way.

 

[hpm1999]

I disagree with this ... I think scientology attracts all kinds of people many are/were good and many are/were already arseholes and narcissists, each finds their 'place' in the cult ... and some, due to the cultic conditioning and 'training' ended up becoming potential (and actual) criminals.

OSA is full of them.

Excellent post- in fact I have heard it posited that because of the sec checks that only those people who have no remorse, have no true human feelings can sail through these things- and naturally this means that those at the top tend to be complete hard wired narcissists who have no basic human feeling-- CO$ as you say exacerbates these tendencies.

Bottom line: emeter and sec checks ensure that SH*T floats to the top at CO$

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I think any person who truly seeks redemption should be given the opportunity to acquire it. Certainly, there are many instances where one needs to make up for the damage done, but the quality and quantity of make up demanded will vary from person to person. For instance, if you stole something from me I may forgive you and let the matter rest if you returned the item and if I felt your apology was genuine and sincere. On the other hand, If I stole something from you, only prison time for me would be a sufficient pay back, regardless of any epiphanies I may have regarding my conduct in life much less any sincere apologies. As for Mike and Marty, I only know them from what I read, and, to me, they are doing all they can to make up the damage done during their time in the COS, evidenced by what they write in their books, blogs and websites exposing the abuses within the COS. They are the most credible voices on the planet in this regard and they express themselves from a position of vast understanding. I admire and appreciate these guys. I like what they write and I relate to what they write. They seem like extraordinary, very well intentioned individuals, and guys that would come to bat for you if they were on your team. They got sucked in to the abuses and dismal activities within Miscavaige's house of horrors just like I would have and just like you would have had we been there at the right time and place. And you and I would have gone along with the status quo and done our fair share of hitting and screaming and abusing if we felt it was the "right thing to do", particularly if we were young, impressionable men as they were. We all screw up. Sometimes we get caught up in the wrong crowd. Any crowd with Miscavaige in it is the wrong crowd and they just got sucked into it. For your sake as much as anyone's give them a break. Forgive them of their transgressions and listen to what they're trying to do here and now. Good luck!

If this is addressed to me then allow me to rebut.

First of all - your belief in redemption is not mine. I believe that redemption can possibly be earned only by good acts. And I mean - acts. Writing one's opinions of the misdoings of others is not an act of redemption - it is an act of denial.

Actually Steveo I did NOT get sucked into Miscavige's house of horrors as you called it. And no I would not have ended up like Mike and Marty because I did not end up like them. Sorry - we ain't all the same. I sure as hell have my large bad points but toeing the line of a fascist dictator is not one of mine. I got declared for it and kicked out. So please don't fucking lecture me on what you *think* I would have done.

As for beng "young impressionable men" - how does "40" suddenly become young and impressionable? Stop infantilizing people. They did it as ADULTS, not kids.

Forgive them their transgressions? No thanks, I'm not god. They never transgressed against *me* if they had then that would be a different kettle of fish. If you mean I should tolerate their gratuitous behavior then and their attempts to obfuscate it now - then NO WAY. You handle things your way and I will handle things my way.

You will note I have not once in this back and forth told you how YOU should behave so spare me the pious bullshit of trying to intimate how I should behave. I at least know what I am talking about.

 

[hpm1999]

If this is addressed to me then allow me to rebut.

First of all - your belief in redemption is not mine. I believe that redemption can possibly be earned only by good acts. And I mean - acts. Writing one's opinions of the misdoings of others is not an act of redemption - it is an act of denial.

Actually Steveo I did NOT get sucked into Miscavige's house of horrors as you called it. And no I would not have ended up like Mike and Marty because I did not end up like them. Sorry - we ain't all the same. I sure as hell have my large bad points but toeing the line of a fascist dictator is not one of mine. I got declared for it and kicked out. So please don't fucking lecture me on what you *think* I would have done.

As for beng "young impressionable men" - how does "40" suddenly become young and impressionable? Stop infantilizing people. They did it as ADULTS, not kids.

Forgive them their transgressions? No thanks, I'm not god. They never transgressed against *me* if they had then that would be a different kettle of fish. If you mean I should tolerate their gratuitous behavior then and their attempts to obfuscate it now - then NO WAY. You handle things your way and I will handle things my way.

You will note I have not once in this back and forth told you how YOU should behave so spare me the pious bullshit of trying to intimate how I should behave. I at least know what I am talking about.

Thanks Matt- I differ slightly- I am not sure about redemption- as you say on God can dish that out.
I can forgive someone which is really about me putting aside my own feelings about them- but I cannot or will not forget- and as I said earlier- forgiveness does not mean that anyone should escape from consequences.

 

[OhMG]

Excellent post- in fact I have heard it posited that because of the sec checks that only those people who have no remorse, have no true human feelings can sail through these things-

Naw, fooling the e-meter has nothing to do with that. You can just think of something else instead of what the auditor is saying and it'll sit there and "f/n". Easy peasy.

 

[hpm1999]

Naw, fooling the e-meter has nothing to do with that. You can just think of something else instead of what the auditor is saying and it'll sit there and "f/n". Easy peasy.

I wish I you had told me in 1999!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[A.K. Myers]

Back in the early 70's the mission I worked at tended to put
the newer people in the div 6 posts. They still could relate
to non-scientologist better than some of the trained old-
timers. It was about gradients of "R" (agreement.)

The converse also holds true. Like it or not, the people who
have been the most effective of getting dyed-in-the-wool
scientologists out are those who have recently left. The
people who can still quote policy and tech, have viewpoints
closer to the viewpoints of those still in. Mike, Marty, Karen
& Leah all fall into this category, as do many others who have
broken free in the last several years.

This is why Debbie Cook's letter was so devastating. She
was still a working cult member when she wrote it.

This my be the only reason I cut them some slack. They all
have done horrible things and some they have yet to atone
for, but none the less, they are being effective in getting
people out of the cult.

As time goes on and they get more information under their
belts, their attitudes will shift and they will cease to be
relevant to those still in. At that time, they will have to
come to terms with their own crimes, for the sake of their
own sanity.

"Time will tell, just who has fell, and who's been left behind,
When you go your way, and I go mine." Bob Dylan

 

[OhMG]

I wish I you had told me in 1999!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think even Elron mentioned it (which is probably where I got the idea) when he talks about being "in session/not in session".

 

[Terril park]

I see how they bitch about how evil DM is for following them, without saying much about the ops they did on others. Also, I read the initial stuff that Marty came out with where he was upset that people wanted him to go to the FBI. And he bitched that he didn't want to go to them, because 'they' had followed him and put him behind bars when he was doing stuff that was reprehensible. So, DM must pay, but he can't go to authorities, because they were trying to shut him down when he was doing the same things? So, they are evil, because... they... attacked Marty?



For Geeks and Other Firefly Fans: the episode "Jaynestown". Just sayin'.

Note that some years ago Mike and Marty went to the FBI and the FBI
were thinking of raiding the int base, and even did photo reconaisance. However
Monique Yinglings husband apparently got this stopped somehow.


BIG Firefly fan. Seen every episode at least 3 times and the film also.

 

[OhMG]

Note that some years ago Mike and Marty went to the FBI and the FBI
were thinking of raiding the int base, and even did photo reconaisance.

You're NOT addressing the post. Neither of them have DETAILED all the CRIMINAL ops they were DIRECTLY involved in.

 

[Terril park]

You're NOT addressing the post. Neither of them have DETAILED all the CRIMINAL ops they were DIRECTLY involved in.

I was addressing a particular point that Clamicide was making. Also
others who havn't been here that long may not know that the MR twins
went to the FBI.

Guess I should ask your permission in future before I respond to
anothers post?

Its perhaps worth noting that for a long period of time the MR twins were severely criticized for not going to the FBI after they had done so.

 

[OhMG]

I was addressing a particular point that Clamicide was making.

THIS: "I see how they bitch about how evil DM is for following them, without saying much about the ops they did on others."

Which you failed to address but tried to make excuses for. You DO know that others can read what you quote & post, right? :shock:

 

[Terril park]

THIS: "I see how they bitch about how evil DM is for following them, without saying much about the ops they did on others."
Which you failed to address but tried to make excuses for.

Emma neglected to post me as ESMB police. Thus I don't comment on every point every poster makes.

You should be gratefull.

You DO know that others can read what you quote & post, right? :shock:

Thats just another stupid conspiracy theory.