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Featured The Nature of Evil

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Gadfly, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

  2. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    If you can *say* it, it's wrong.

  3. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    I believe that a bully is a bully because he has some personal problem. Backing off from the bully is ok if that gets rid of the bully as far as you are concerned. This is the proper course to take if one is not interested in handling the personal problem of the bully, so he is not bullying anybody else either.

    However, if the bully doesn’t go away by backing off, and keeps on coming, then one has no choice but to handle the bully. The question then becomes how much force one should use in one’s handling of the bully. Here my guideline is to use just enough force to create a stalemate. DON’T USE ANY MORE FORCE THAN NECESSARY TO CREATE A STALEMATE, otherwise one starts to move into the valence of bully oneself.

    The whole intention should be to neutralize the destructive force of the bully, so that he is than willing to look at the root cause of his bad behavior. That root cause resides in him and not outside of him. Once bully’s destructive force is neutralized then one should use intelligence to handle the personal problem which is making the bully to act that way.

    Does the above reasoning apply on a scale of bullying from an organization like Scientology? I think it does. However, in this case one would not be able to generate the needed counter-force all by oneself. One would have to develop an organization to generate enough force to counter the destructive force of Scientology. I think that ESMB is a part of such an organization. There are many other pieces of such an organization that are coming together right now in the society.

    Internet is just a resource for such an organization against Scientology. Other resources are the Justice System, the ex-Scientologists, the Anonymous, the general public, etc.

  4. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Choosing to accept the abuse is akin to “walking away” mentally. One has simply shut oneself off. But if the abuse continues, there comes a point when one must decide to, at least, handle the effect of that abuse on oneself, and, if one is feeling more courageous, then one may decide to act to handle the abuser as well.

    One may handle the effect of that abuse on oneself by physically walking away from the abuser. If the abuser then comes after one, then one should handle him as a bully as outlined in the previous post. If one cannot do so alone then one must muster up resources available in the society in form of friends, relatives, police, justice system, etc.

    A big problem is that of organizing one’s resources to counter the abuser. If the resources are not there then the best recourse is the Gandhian, non-violent, passive resistance. Using violence in return will only worsen the situation if one is not up to mustering enough force.

    When a person is conditioned to taking the abuse, such as those in the SP Hall at Int, then nothing much can be done for them directly. They will achieve their freedom from the abuser only when the abuser falls because of his karma. Similar condition applies to children in Scientology . But those in the SP Hall, or those born in Scientology, may, all of a sudden, wake up and realize the abusive relationship. In that case the previous paragraphs apply.

    Opposition to the suppressive actions of the Church by a few in the beginning was, indeed, very courageous of those individuals. They had to suffer through the repercussions their actions brought in the form of insane reactions from the Church. But what really organized the opposition to the Church was the advent of Internet. That is where we find the tide turning against the Church. Today, we find that tide becoming bigger and bigger exerting enough force to blunt the destructive forces of the Church.

  5. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    The key datum is recognizing something for what it is. The cumulative effect of Scientology may be harmful but that doesn’t mean that every bit of Scientology data is harmful. Also, one must recognize that a datum may be interpreted in more than one way. Some interpretations may be harmful, but not all, necessarily.

    I believe that LRH came upon the key data “under the influence.” Thus, the original data that he came up with is likely to be neutral. But, what LRH did with that data after “coming out of the influence” is definitely questionable. His selfish intentions did color that data.

    So, I believe that there exists neutral data in Scientology, which is not colored by LRH’s aberrated ego. As regards other data, one has to be discriminative enough to recognize the neutral form of it, and restate it to oneself that way if one wants to use it properly.

    For example, I interpreted Scientology Axiom #1 in a way that it gave me more reality on the concept of BRAHMA that I was exposed to through Hinduism. I don’t know how LRH meant it; but I know how I interpreted it to make it more useful for myself.

    One’s view gets colored by one’s experiences (both good and bad), and by reactions to those experiences. Such experiences, and reactions to them, may suppress one’s ability to discriminate. This is factual to me.

  6. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Yes, I have enjoyed Crowley's work and have even commented on some of them (see Vinaire's Page in my sig line).

    There is stuff in Crowley's work to learn from. :)

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  7. CornPie

    CornPie Patron Meritorious

    My sworn enemy is scientology, this is not about an one-vs-one relationship with me, but about fighting an organization. This is after all, the Ex-scientologist Message Board (ESMB).

    My intention, speaking just for myself, is to partake in annihilating scientology, and everything hubbard, including the freezone. And I'm not even sure how to define annihilation in this case. But as they go down, I hope to see the s*** stomped out of everything hubbard, and if the stompers look like bullies, I think that's justified. Because the world has never seen an enemy like this, with such far reaching tentacles. scientology has shown, they're about much more than an 'idea'.

    We've all heard it many times, "those who don't learn from history, are destined to repeat it." Throughout history, tyrannys have been neutralized, only to later morph into something worse, and rear their face uglier than before. So I get nervous when I hear people say, "scientology will be finished within a year, then we can all get back to business as usual."

    After all, scientology-cia has etched their writings into titanium tablets, and placed them in underground vaults. This shows a clear intention, that they're in it for the 'long' haul. So even if they quite down for a while, I think it's safe to assume they'll be licking their wounds, and preparing for the next assault. Perhaps a generation later, after everyone has forgotten the lessons.

    I wasn't comfortable when my generation protested the Vietnam War in the 1960's. But I have to tell you, I am proud of the younger generation today, who grew up in the Internet era, who value free speech. I admire the way they're taking on scientology.

    I just hope they learn from history, to finish the job off, and then some, for a long-long-long time. And like I said, I'm not even sure how to define annihilation of everything hubbard. But I'm not comfortable with just 'neutralizing' scientology -- I guess it depends on how you define neutralize, and how much force is put behind it.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Those who act like their enemies, are actually repeating the history in real time.

  9. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Ask Gadfly a question and you will receive an answer!

  10. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Corn Pie you should move to Germany

    Corn Pie, maybe you should relocate to Germany. I was just there last month in Frankfurt, Heidelbeg and Berlin. There was no sign of any Scientology whereas in the 70's through the 90's some of the biggest Orgs in the world were concentrated there. I believe Germany has declared Scientology to be a business not a religion. My host in Austria, Karlo97, who is on this board thinks there are only about 4,000 Scientologists in Germany, a country of 80 million. Due to their Nazi past and what it did to their country and the country's and peoples the Nazis destroyed, they responded ruthlessly to Scientoloy's method of operation. Things such as the RPF really raised red flags in the German government against Scientology. Once the religious cloaking is stripped from Scientology, it makes it very difficult for Scientology to operate as a centrally organized group activity. Organizations such as the Freezone are not impacted but do rather well since they are not centrally organized and do not use religious cloaking.

    Berlin is really remarkable. In the Potsdamer Platz, an upscale neighborhood of businesses, stores, offices and restaurants some of the main streets are David ben Gurian Strasse, Yitzhak Rabin Strasse and von Stauffenberg Strasse. There is a Felix Mendelsohn (Jewish Composer) Park with a statue of Mendelsohn, there are two Jewish museums, a statue to the "Unknown Russian Soldiers" who died taking Berlin in 1945. The only reference made to the Nazis which I saw at one of the German history museums was that the Nazis took over Germany, started World War II and suffered total defeat.

    If you want to knock out Scn for good, you will find many kindred souls in Germany. I personally do not want to do this but am just giving you a tip.
  11. finishedman

    finishedman Patron with Honors

    Everything you are doing to be at peace with yourself is what is destroying the peace that is already there. Though you claim you have not, you have set in motion the movement of thought because anything you do to free yourself from the self is the self. That is destroying the peace that is there. What you are doing is the impediment, is the one thing that is disturbing the harmony, the peace that is already there.

    Any movement, in any direction, on any level, is a very destructive factor for the smooth and peaceful functioning of this living organism which is not at all interested in your spiritual experiences. It has no interest in any one of those spiritual experiences, however extraordinary they may be.

    This unpleasant sensation, discomfort and distress that occurs in you when your attempts at certainty are frustrated, where is it? It does not exist at one or another ethereal level — it is here, it is part of the body. Therefore the body has to take the consequences and generally you can not solve the problems. The body has to work them out, and the body can do that in a very intelligent and successful way if you just give it a chance. Your desire to solve your problems at some other level will not be honored. It just remains a hope and nothing else.

    When once you have one spiritual experience there is bound to be a demand for more and more of the same, and ultimately you will want to be in that state permanently. There is no such thing as permanent happiness or permanent bliss at all. You think that there is, because all this talk of eternal bliss, permanent bliss, or permanent happiness. Yet you know that the pursuit is not leading you anywhere. Like I have said in another post, you forget that everything that you are doing, any movement that is there, any want that is there, for whatever reason, is effort.
  12. finishedman

    finishedman Patron with Honors

    Effortlessness is something which cannot be achieved through effort. Anything that you do to stop the effort, is itself an effort. It's really a maddening thing. You have not really pushed yourself into that corner. If you do, then you will really go crazy; but that's frightening. You have to see that everything that you are doing to be in that effortless state, for whatever reason you want to be there, is effort. Even wanting not to use effort also is effort. The total absence of will and the total absence of effort, all and every kind, may be called an effortless state; but that effortless state is not something that you can achieve through effort.
  13. Markus

    Markus Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think this quote fits here

    Just to contradict the torrents of words in this thread I'll leave this quote of Albert Einstein here:

    "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

    Albert Einstein :yes:


  14. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Excellent post. Excellent thread. :thumbsup:
  15. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    I miss Gaddy . . . :unsure: Anyone know if he is OK?
  16. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    I miss him, too. He last posted in May and all seemed fine, post wise. He last visited, per his profile, in mid July early in the morning. Perhaps he's just busy with life. I hope so!
  17. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Me too . . . Hey, Gad - this is for you - wherever you are :hug: :bighug: :grouphug:

    And to Gad, and everyone here, Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays and New Year. :cheers:
  18. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is a fantastic thread! How did I miss it so many years ago? We'll worth reading and studying. Gadfly was one of my favorite ESMBers

    Hope he/she is OK.
  19. eldritch cuckoo

    eldritch cuckoo brainslugged reptilian

    Yeah, meanwhile I've read many of Gadfly's old posts. I like them. Great philosophy and deep thoughts, metaphysics with a touch of spirituality, but in a theorizing and speculating manner, not "down your throat", if you get it... :thumbsup:
  20. Wants2Talk

    Wants2Talk Silver Meritorious Patron

    Is there a "Best of ESMB" thread? This deserves a such an honor. Post this above the door of our clubhouse!:thumbsup: