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The Social Cost of Questioning Your Tribal Leaders

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Every Ex-Scientologist here knows what I'm talking about in the title of this thread.

You, once, had the moral courage to seek to live with the truth - to question Scientology's leaders no matter the cost to your present life as a Scientologist. And many took heavy costs for doing it.

Maybe that took a toll on you. Maybe losing everything in pursuit of the truth, especially the truths that would lose you your roles in your group, and all the status that went with them - maybe that was something you'd only like to experience once, and never again.

We can all agree that there was not enough questioning of your tribal leaders in Scientology.

I am here to tell you that there has not been enough questioning of your tribal leaders in Anti-Scientology, too.

Why have you stopped questioning the narrative being fed to you?

Why have you not stood up to leaders who needed to be stood up to?

Didn't you learn anything in becoming an Ex-Scientologist?
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Every Ex-Scientologist here knows what I'm talking about in the title of this thread.

You, once, had the moral courage to seek to live with the truth - to question Scientology's leaders no matter the cost to your present life as a Scientologist. And many took heavy costs for doing it.

Maybe that took a toll on you. Maybe losing everything in pursuit of the truth, especially the truths that would lose you your roles in your group, and all the status that went with them - maybe that was something you'd only like to experience once, and never again.

We can all agree that there was not enough questioning of your tribal leaders in Scientology.

I am here to tell you that there has not been enough questioning of your tribal leaders in Anti-Scientology, too.

Why have you stopped questioning the narrative being fed to you?

Why have you not stood up to leaders who needed to be stood up to?

Didn't you learn anything in becoming an Ex-Scientologist?
Yeah, no. :no: You don't know what you're talking about. You have fixed ideas about Scientology, Scientologists and ex-Scientologists -- you should start questioning those fixed ideas.

Or not, and continue to believe you are the Wise Leader, here to instruct and correct ... :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Seriously, :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
You, once, had the moral courage to seek to live with the truth - to question Scientology's leaders no matter the cost to your present life as a Scientologist. And many took heavy costs for doing it.
For my part Alanzo,

I graduated and am not anymore THE truth seeker...
I listen to my inner voice when I can get my frantic hamster wheel to stop. This voice is neither yours or Mike Rinders ( which I don't read or listen to any of his takes as what Scientology is..) this voice is a whisper that speaks down into my guts and rise into my head, which has a complete brain to analyse. If I would have listened to it I would have left this abusive scam after I completed my 1st major course. Thus I am not a truth seeker...I am my inner voice listener.
Maybe that took a toll on you. Maybe losing everything in pursuit of the truth, especially the truths that would lose you your roles in your group, and all the status that went with them - maybe that was something you'd only like to experience once, and never again.
Alanzo, are you talking about yourself???
I know, from observations, that many people here have gave up on ego quest...some long time ago..
Especially their savior\ preacher ego quest???

Is this your case????
I am here to tell you that there has not been enough questioning of your tribal leaders in Anti-Scientology, too.
Yes, it's something we pointed you , several times since you came back to preach us..
But hey, nice that you tell finally!

I wouldn't waste too much energy on that..since the Don Quixote is dead in many people here...:D

Yes I learned since I became am exe

I learned to save myself
I learned to let go my savior false personality
I learned that the one truth doesn't exist
I learned to be my own advisor,
I learned to live my present life instead of living through other's wars ( enemy, enemy, sp....)

That said you may have learn different things than I did..which is YOUR truth..only that!
And you shall inspect your own mind for scrutinity instead of avoiding it while being so concerned by our thinking!

;)
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
For my part Alanzo,

I graduated and am not anymore THE truth seeker...
I listen to my inner voice when I can get my frantic hamster wheel to stop. This voice is neither yours or Mike Rinders ( which I don't read or listen to any of his takes as what Scientology is..) this voice is a whisper that speaks down into my guts and rise into my head, which has a complete brain to analyse. If I would have listened to it I would have left this abusive scam after I completed my 1st major course. Thus I am not a truth seeker...I am my inner voice listener.

Alanzo, are you talking about yourself???
I know, from observations, that many people here have gave up on ego quest...some long time ago..
Especially their savior\ preacher ego quest???

Is this your case????

Yes, it's something we pointed you , several times since you came back to preach us..
But hey, nice that you tell finally!

I wouldn't waste too much energy on that..since the Don Quixote is dead in many people here...:D

Yes I learned since I became am exe

I learned to save myself
I learned to let go my savior false personality
I learned that the one truth doesn't existI learned to be my own advisor,
I learned to live my present life instead of living through other's wars ( enemy, enemy, sp....)

That said you may have learn different things than I did..which is YOUR truth..only that!
And you shall expect your own mind for scrutinity instead of avoiding it while being so concerned by our thinking!

;)

When was the last time you said something openly critical of Karen De La Carriere, Jeffrey Augustine, Mike Rinder or Leah Remini?

When was the last time you openly questioned - actually wrote out your question here on ESMB - anything they had to say?

I'm not saying you've never done this, Lotus. I am just asking can you show me?

I'd like to see it.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I changed my tag line yesterday. First, it was 'Destroyer of Worlds'. And that seemed to scare the shit of everybody. Jeffrey, Karen, HH and so many others ran away!

So then I saw that there was a lot of "Protection of Upstats" going on, so I became "Downstat DB".

Now I am "Screeching Harpy".

I'm a Harpy, and I'm Screeching.

I'm a Screeching Harpy.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
When was the last time you said something openly critical of Karen De La Carriere, Jeffrey Augustine, Mike Rinder or Leah Remini?
I like your question Alanzo.

1) I was among them who were critical of both Mike and Marty when they became suddenly hero. Let me tell you it was not popular here at that time...

Both took a different path...Marty choose Marty's interest and sole benefit . Mike did something that has social value.

Since I didn't wear both of their shoes, and don't know of them personnaly, neither am I doing anything of value to expose the Scientology abuses..thus, I have nothing of value to add.

I am grateful for those who took all the OSA abuse for they exposed the cult. If I am submitted proofs that Mike is a scam, I will give a look then, but now I won't be part of YOUR TRIBAL crime hunt.

Regarding Karen, you are not fair to ask me this question since you commented , a few years ago on your blog, that I called upon Karen for something that happened on her board. I was the only one to openly ask her..instead of smearing her I reported my viewpoint and ask she takes action. She agreed and acted promptly.
Karen always showed respect to me and never I have been a suckpuppet neither she tried pressure me. Athough I know that Karen is a PR specialist and know how to build a loyal base.

I can live with Karen being who she is Alanzo..since I know her long past in Scientology top circle, OSA and others...I expect she may behave differently than I and that she will make use of her influence to have an audience to think as she does and help her in her fight with the cult...the exact same thing you do against the scientology critics here and now.

I don't know Jeffrey and I don't know Leah apart that she had the courage to stand tall against Misc and produced her show, which has a great social value, no matter if all the dirty stuff is totally exposed or not..

That is pretty what I have to say!

Don't make the mistake to think we are not wise and clever, or blind Alanzo..what is to be seen is seen, but people don't necessary act the same way you do according to their observations. They are not part of your own quest.

Ciao!
;)
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I like your question Alanzo.

1) I was among them who were critical of both Mike and Marty when they became suddenly hero. Let me tell you it was not popular here at that time...

Both took a different path...Marty choose Marty's interest and sole benefit . Mike did something that has social value.

Since I didn't wear both of their shoes, and don't know of them personnaly, neither am I doing anything of value to expose the Scientology abuses apart ..thus, I have nothing of value to add.

I am grateful for those who took all the OSA abuse to expose the cult. If I am submitted proofs that Mike is a scam, I will give a look then but I won't be part of a TRIBAL crime chasing

Regarding Karen, you are not fair to ask me this question since you commented , a few years ago on your blog, that I called upon Karen for something that began on her board. Instead of smearing her I reported my viewpoint and ask she takes action. She did promptly.
Karen always showed respect for me and never I have been a suckpuppet neither she tried pressured me. Athough I know that Karen is a PR specialist and know how to build a loyal base.

I can live with Karen being who she is Alanzo..since I know her long past in Scientology top circle, OSA and others...I expect she may behave differently than I and that she will make use of her influence to have an audience to think as she does and help her in her fight with the cult...the exact same thing you do with the anti-sch critics.

I don't know Jeffrey and I don't know Leah apart that she had the courage to stand talk against Misc and did her show, which has a great social value, no matter if all the dirty stuff is totally exposed or not..

That is pretty what I have to say!

Don't make the mistake to think we are not wise and clever, or blind Alanzo..what is to be seen is seen, but people don't necessary act the same way you do according to their observations. They are not part of your own quest.

Ciao!
;)
I read your response to me twice. I appreciate and understand your answer.

But in each of the cases you pointed out: Karen Jeffrey, Mike and Leah, you said the reasons you have not openly questioned or criticized anything they have to said or done is because you don't know them, you are beholden to them in some way (as with Karen), or you don't have the standing.

In other words, you don't feel you have the rank to openly question or criticize anything Mike, Leah, Jeffrey or Karen has said or done.

What happened to you?
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I changed my tag line yesterday. First, it was 'Destroyer of Worlds'. And that seemed to scare the shit of everybody. Jeffrey, Karen, HH and so many others ran away!

So then I saw that there was a lot of "Protection of Upstats" going on, so I became "Downstat DB".

Now I am "Screeching Harpy".

I'm a Harpy, and I'm Screeching.

I'm a Screeching Harpy.
Alanzo,

We told you several times that nobody is scared of you.

But you keep sticking to that as a fix idea that WE MUST be feared by the GREAT ALANZO coming back..which never happened.

HH was not feared of you ; he seemed to be offended that EMMA redacted his post.

Life is good to you that he took a leave..because he could ( nicely or cruelly) deconstruct this big narcisstic ego playing in just a few posts.

Nobody's gives a shit Alanzo about your many personality changing tag lines..

It seems to me you are like a prisonner of an pseudo internet leader identity you are loosing and can't accept.. ( nothing is permanent..things come and go..)

Don't take it for offensive..I told you what I think I must tell you! Just think about it Alanzo, if you wish. You can call me a bixxch back channel..truth is not always nice, either for you or me.

:)
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Alanzo,

We told you several times that nobody is scared of you.

But you keep sticking to that as a fix idea that WE MUST be feared by the GREAT ALANZO coming back..which never happened.

HH was not feared of you ; he seemed to be offended that EMMA redacted his post.

Life is good to you that he took a leave..because he could ( nicely or cruelly) deconstruct you big narcisstic ego playing.

Nobody's gives a shit Alanzo about your many personality changing tag lines..

It seems to me you your are prisonner of an internet leader identity you ateoosing and can't accept..

Don't take it for offensive..I told you what I think must be told ot you now! Just think about it Alanzo. You can call me a bixxch back channel..truth is not always nice.

:)
Do you know what a Screeching Harpy is?

harpy
A harpy is a mean, foul-tempered woman. You might quietly refer to your cranky math teacher as a harpy. The word harpy is a derogatory term for a very unpleasant female person. It is often considered offensive to call someone a harpy, in part because it singles out a nasty woman, when a man with similar characteristics might simply be "loud" or "opinionated" or "overbearing." The word comes from Greek mythology, in which a harpy was a food-stealing creature with a woman's head and the body of a bird.
 

AD1950

Patron
When was the last time you said something openly critical of Karen De La Carriere, Jeffrey Augustine, Mike Rinder or Leah Remini?
When was the last time you openly questioned - actually wrote out your question here on ESMB - anything they had to say?
I'm not saying you've never done this, Lotus. I am just asking can you show me?
I'd like to see it.

OK, I'll try it.

Those folks - WE PROBABLY COULDN'T AGREE ON WHAT TO ORDER FROM THE MENU AT AN ITALIAN RESTAURANT.

(Thanks for the opportunity, feel so much better).

Now, can we get back to the topic at hand - Helping the victims of Scientology (while putting its leaders into prison)?
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
When was the last time you said something openly critical of Karen De La Carriere, Jeffrey Augustine, Mike Rinder or Leah Remini?

When was the last time you openly questioned - actually wrote out your question here on ESMB - anything they had to say?

I'm not saying you've never done this, Lotus. I am just asking can you show me?

I'd like to see it.
My opinions are not for you to dictate. Not you or the cast of characters you seem to think are (oh god!) "tribal leaders". No one dictates my opinions to me SO STOP TRYING!

Because that's all you are doing here: Telling people what to think, how to think, how to be "correct" ex-Scientologists, how to be "correctly" skeptical, how to criticize the church (or, actually, not criticize), who to criticize among ex-Scientologists, and on and on. You are only here to dictate to us how to "correctly" live our ex-Scientology lives.

You have your little "enemies list" and you want everyone to join your (oh god!) "tribe" and join you in your campaign against them.

Just stop it. You are so hypocritical and ... silly.
 

AD1950

Patron
My opinions are not for you to dictate. Not you or the cast of characters you seem to think are (oh god!) "tribal leaders". No one dictates my opinions to me SO STOP TRYING!

Because that's all you are doing here: Telling people what to think, how to think, how to be "correct" ex-Scientologists, how to be "correctly" skeptical, how to criticize the church (or, actually, not criticize), who to criticize among ex-Scientologists, and on and on. You are only here to dictate to us how to "correctly" live our ex-Scientology lives.

You have your little "enemies list" and you want everyone to join your (oh god!) "tribe" and join you in your campaign against them.

Just stop it. You are so hypocritical and ... silly.
The critical yet unanswered question, remains:

ALONZO - WHAT WOULD YOU ORDER OFF THE MENU AT AN ITALIAN RESTAURANT?

(This will help us determine if you are "fit" to be "leader" of Bill's "tribe").

Then, can we get back to evaluation of Scientology? (Lots to discuss on that).
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
OK, I'll try it.

Those folks - WE PROBABLY COULDN'T AGREE ON WHAT TO ORDER FROM THE MENU AT AN ITALIAN RESTAURANT.

(Thanks for the opportunity, feel so much better).

Now, can we get back to the topic at hand - Helping the victims of Scientology (while putting its leaders into prison)?
Sounds good to me.

Try the Kyle Fettucini Alfredo
 

AD1950

Patron
Now that that's settled, I endorse Alonzo's self-nomination to be our tribal leader.

As such, we must begin gathering large stones, to erect a proper and enduring monument to his memory.

(I misplaced plans for the great pyramid, can anyone help with that)?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I have these ideals, these expectations, these standards for what an Ex-Scientologist should be.

I believe that an Ex-Scientologist has been through a very unique set of experiences for a human being: they've had their whole worldview, everything they thought was true, collapse on them. I believe this experience can lead the way to a deep insight into the nature of being human.

A lot of people, such as never-ins, like to remind Exes (over and over) that they were "naive" and "gullible" and "taken in by a con man". And with this comes the shame of being "conned". If an Ex forgets what deep emotional need was being served by intentionally choosing every day to be a Scientologist, or pretends the fulfillment of that need was a weakness or vulnerability of some kind, then the strength and wisdom (yes wisdom) they have gained from their experience of leaving Scientology can be drained right out of them.

They can be convinced they did not gain wisdom from their experiences that few humans have ever acquired - especially those never-ins which seek to shame them (And Asshole Exes like HH).

Never-ins have never had their worldviews tested like Exes have. They have (quite arrogantly) never felt the need to have them tested. They never "fell' for anything other than mainstream society, things like Richard Nixon, the Cold War, and Donald Trump.

But Exes wanted more. And in many cases they found more in Scientology. For a while at least, until their needs stopped being met. Then they left.

Getting out of Scientology is not something you recover from - it is something you are strengthened by.

So I have these standards and expectations and ideals about what Exes should be.

And those standards are NOT delusions: Almost every single one of you were the embodiment of those standards when I was on ESMB before - questioning, criticizing and fighting against Scientology. And helping others to do the same.

Yet look at you now with regard to your new Anti-Scientology leaders.

I was not the only one to have these ideals, these expectations, these standards for ourselves as Exes.

Now was I?
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Do you know what a Screeching Harpy is?

harpy
A harpy is a mean, foul-tempered woman. You might quietly refer to your cranky math teacher as a harpy. The word harpy is a derogatory term for a very unpleasant female person.
:laugh:

Oh Alanzo!

Just coming back from my daily walk in the beautiful park just besides my home.

Lot of kids playing, bicycles, a little devil dog wanted to play with me..a real devil..lol
And suddenly I saw the kites in the sky..and it made me remember my childhood..and the sky was so blue and it is a warm August summer day. And I thought of Jana and wonder if she can see me from above! .. And I was grateful to have this nice park and this beautiful day.

My encounterings of today were nice for the soul..so I am sorry to report you didn't make my day dark..neither your gaslighting of me being a foul- tempered woman is hurting me..to the opposite you made my day for this good laughter.
:laugh:
( I must admit I am a little flattered of such attention)

May I suggest to be careful since, when out of arguments, a good thing is to give up, instead of behaving childish..one is mature the other is ego driven. Also a nice walk changes fixed ideas.

Think about it
so you may accommodate of
Screeching harpy auntie Lotus!
:D
 
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