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The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Dulloldfart, May 7, 2017.

  1. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I think the tone scale is somewhat valid including upper levels 6-40.

    Something to take into account is indoctrination/education.

    Jihadism is a good example, one is indoctrinated into
    considering the most evil/counter survival actions as good.

    Scn indoctrination also has examples of the worshiping
    of counter survival actions. Fair game and disconnectioin
    as examples also the rejection of laws and fair play which
    deny the rights of others.
     
  2. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    I'll hazard a guess ...

    [​IMG]
     
  3. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Okay yeh, I agree, as far as feeling emotions TOWARD others, i.e., responsiveness, definitely lacking. For the purpose of this exercise you laid out, though, empathy is not on the Tone Scale, and remorse or guilt are, interestingly enough, listed in the negative tones - Pity is -0.1, Shame is -0.2, Accountable is -0.7.For the upper tone levels, it seems sociopaths and psychopaths have the full range, even if they only feel those things selfishly. No differentiation was made by Hubbard, and it would seem he didn't value guilt, shame, accountability or any sort of empathy, either.
     
  4. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    .


    For once, I can actually wholeheartedly agree with you!

    I think you have brought some much-needed science into the discussion about the validity of the Tone Scale. And, in doing so, you have confirmed that LRH was an extremely high-toned being.

    Because, Dr. Hubbard was chronically in "ACTION" (tone 20) when he was somewhat lying to, defrauding and terrorizing homo sapiens on this planet.
     
  5. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    . . .
    The missing bit . . .
    tone.jpg
    :wink2:
     
  6. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I would say the various defs. of affinity cover empathy.

    The practice of auditing/psychotherapy must include empathy.

    Shame Hubbard didn't spell it out more clearly. If he had maybe Scn wouldn't be in such serious decline.
     
  7. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    The tone scal is in my opinion one of the most famous ridicule and dammaging $cientology legacy..

    No one has a chronic tone...

    Emotions coems and goes..being evolve, either in the better or the worst

    Emotions depend on many factors..including environement, life issues, challenges, attitude, thoughts...but are not inherent to the individual as the tone scale ''chronic tone'' would mean..otherwise..coming on this forum is very hazardous :unsure:

    Emotions are only emotions...
    they are not the being..they are only a present time sensor related to feelings, sensations and other phenomanons..

    Therefore, relating an individual to a pseudo-emotional tone is ridicule, meaningless if only to reshape his behavior and goals in fitting some behavioral expectations of a totalitarian ideology.

    A perfect example of this is here;

    Featuring higher tone productive people vs a degrade low tone homeless
    an interesting look at the deep values and and human generosity displayed by such high\low tone individuals

    [video=youtube;1fC6RP6tZ1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fC6RP6tZ1Q[/video]

    Beautiful beings don't alway wear beautiful clothes.
    But according to the $cientology tone scale they are criminals, degraded, out-ethics low tone beings..
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  8. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    After reading this primer on Rhetoric: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/21/classical-rhetoric-101-the-three-means-of-persuasion/

    I then proceeded to search for Hubbards tone (pathos) scale , how did he develop it, where did he get it from, these were my questions. I really wish I had access to his library and the boxes of material Gerry Armstrong saw, sort of like reverse engineering or as Arnie says how the con was done.

    Turns out Aristotle did have a list of emotions as found here but he did not put them in a chart or scale:

    http://spot.colorado.edu/~hauserg/ArEmotList.htm

    This is what I think, Hubbard came up with his emotions chart and Chart of Attitudes to make it all science sounding but also to persuade one to do Dianetics and later Scientology (expanded tone scale), after all achieving Tone 4 and the higher Tones is a very great sounding place to be ( the never never land). And with KSW we have only one route, or monopoly, Ron called it Ron's Brand and other brands are called squirrels.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcLjcSloXs
     
  9. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Why are posters on this thread assuming that a human being cannot experience more than ONE emotion at the same time?
    :confused2:
     
  10. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I think that is completely true. When I was first researching scientology on the internet, I was ecstatic about reading about others experiences and at the same time fearful of consequences if I were to be found out.
     
  11. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    .


    Excellent point!

    In a major and counter-intuitive technical breakthrough, Dr. Hubbard scientifically proved that both the emotional tone levels of "HAPPINESS" and "HATE" can simultaneously co-exist!



    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    :blink:
    That's it? That's why Scientology is in serious decline?

    So it has nothing to do with the lies, false promises, abuses and total failure to deliver what was promised?

    The real reason Scientology is in "such serious decline" is all because Hubbard didn't spell out "empathy" more clearly.

    Thanks. Wow. Now we know. :thumbsup:
     
  13. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Elcon didn't mention empathy because in his narcissistic $cientology cult it doesn't exist. Dauntless defiant dedicated glaring only the tigers survive KSW is how to make cultic fanatics, empathy and sympathy negates that hogwash. $cientology is in decline because its been doxed and people are kinda weirded out about joining a cult, just sayin'.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  14. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Empathy\sympathy in $cientology is a very wrong thing = related to ''propitiation'' emotional tone. :naughty:
    (you remember vegetarianism = propitiation)

    Actually , almost any thought\act of kindness toward others is related to propitiation.
    It's wrong..especially when it deprives the guru and his cult from any $$$, and slave work.


    The poor narcissist didn't had a clue about it...only it could he a threat to him and his cult :confused2:
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    :hysterical:

    Scieno-Scenario: An OSA operative is very enturbulated and is given a session where he is shown great empathy for his plight:

    OSA EXEC
    Well, I've just been feeling so caved in about that
    whole Operation Freakout. I mean, my God--Ron expected
    us to frame her for bomb threats so she would go to federal prison!

    AUDITOR
    I see what you mean, go on. . .

    OSA EXEC
    I'm just so totally enturbulated! And, my God--if we failed to
    do that, Ron expected us to drive her psychotic so she would
    be forcefully committed to an insane asylum the rest of her life!

    AUDITOR
    I can really understand how upset all this awful
    stuff has made you feel, please go on. . .

    OSA EXEC
    I'm experiencing so much remorse and regret and shame!

    AUDITOR
    As a fellow OT, I can really empathize with
    what you are feeling right now. It'll be okay.

    OSA EXEC
    How will it ever be okay to have attempted to do those
    things to another human being? I have betrayed humanity!
    I must be so evil and degraded, I don't deserve to live!

    AUDITOR
    Hey, don't be so down on yourself. In fact I have a special
    r-factor from LRH to read you in this session. Ron says:
    "Although you have failed to send Paulette Cooper to prison
    or into an insane asylum, I am giving you one more chance.
    Now I want you to drive her to commit suicide!"

    OSA EXEC
    Wow! That's blowing my mind!

    AUDITOR
    I know! That Ron has so much empathy
    [SUP]*[/SUP] that he's willing
    to keep the door to salvation open a crack,
    even for major fuck-ups like you!

    OSA EXEC
    Amazing! I am feeling totally keyed out now! Let Ron
    know that I am forever grateful and I won't betray him again!




    .


    [SUP]* [/SUP]Well, don't blame me--check your tech dictionary, people! It's scientology's special kind of definition for "empathy", right? LOL
     
  16. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist



    Also, I can't find the emotion of LOVE on that tone scale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyA74rri3hQ
     
  17. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    yep, cross posted from another blog:

    "Gib

    interestingly, Aristotle defines love as ” Wishing for a person those things which you consider to be good—wishing them
    for his sake and not your own–and tending so far as you can to affect them.”
    from this link:
    http://spot.colorado.edu/~hauserg/ArEmotList.htm
    go Phil & Willie, may the Phil Board long live! “Call me” is the slogan from a parent to a child."


    https://www.alanzosblog.com/heresy-...lved-family-disconnection-conflicts/#comments
     
  18. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Read or re-read SOS.

    I'm not being a dick but this argument, having been pushed by others, is a red herring. In SOS the affinity measured by the scale is the degree of love or lack thereof the person has or expresses. In other words it is love that is being measured - a point stressed over and over in SOS.

    What is stupid is the ommission of Pride and Arrogance and, later, the expanded addition of a physical sensation, Pain, as an emotion.
     
  19. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    That's correct, Bill. That's why when you're mailing dildos to a whistleblower's place of employment or poisoning their dog you must do so with EMPATHY.
     
  20. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased


    CHAPTER EIGHT
    COLUMN G
    Affinity

    In view of the fact that the word “love” has at least two outstanding meanings in the
    English language, a misunderstanding could result if it were employed to represent this factor
    in theta.

    “Affinity” is a broad term and means simply a sympathy of feeling, an affection, the
    feeling of one person for another, as we use it in Dianetics. Affinity, in the theta sense,
    dianetically, might be compared to cohesion and adhesion in the physical universe, as applied
    to energy. There are degrees of affinity, according to our definition, as represented by the tone
    scale. These range from a feeling of well being along all the dynamics down the various stages
    of emotion to severance of feeling from any and all of the dynamics. Affinity broadly includes
    emotion.

    The tone scale of affinity, as represented on the chart, refers to the reaction of the
    individual at any particular time to just one or to a small number of people. But as affinity is
    suppressed repeatedly, the individual will begin to take on an habitual level on the affinity
    scale, an habitual reaction to almost all people. This is also true of the affinity scale of groups,
    and one can find on this scale the tone level of any nation or, indeed, of mankind for any given
    period, which would be the averaging out of the general reaction of mankind to mankind.

    At the top of the scale around tone four, the individual experiences love, strong and
    outgoing; he experiences friendliness, this is an extroversion of affinity. One commonly finds
    this in children, who when growing older and receiving rejections and rebuffs, first from one
    or two people and then from many, will gradually experience the blunting of their affinity.


    It goes on from there covering love at each major tone both projected and received.

    That's just that chapter. It's all over SOS as well as in Dianetics when covering the Tone Scale and ARC.

    I just re-read these books back-to-back (don't ask).
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017