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Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Again, my point was solely and only that Hubbard said he wasn't going to replicate the mistakes and abuses of the elder religions and churches and then did exactly what he said he wasn't gonna do.

    So, I'm sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree.
  2. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    There are 40,000 or more that would disagree with your assertion. For them it is the opposite truism.

    This has been hashed and thrashed over so many times on ESMB, I do not intend to do it yet another time.
  3. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Tsk, tsk - argumentum ad populum. Even when the whole world believed the Earth was flat it was still spherical. Also, those 40,000 people [STRIKE]believe[/STRIKE] have certainty that there is such a thing as a reactive mind and to deal with it they need to clear their bank.
  4. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    As I added to my last post. This discussion has been done numerous times on this board by others. I have no interest in carrying on.

    I will say that your example is as good as the virgin birth, creation in 6 days, resurrection from the dead, etc.

    Perhaps someone else would like to take up the debate.
  5. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    First of all, DOX PLOX. And, second: no. L Ron Hubbard didn't didn't replicate the mistakes and abuses of any religion. How could he when Scientology is not a religion? Hubbard's statement, if indeed he said it, was yet another of his semantic misdirections.
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Video on Religious cloaking:

    The complete document:


    Quoted posts by others are in sienna (brown).

    By Rmack:

    I just had to vent a little about a pet peeve I have. People who, even though critical of this cult, still call it a church.

    It's well documented that the whole church facade was taken on by Laffy for the benefits it bestowed, like potential tax exemption, the e-meter being protected as a 'religious artifact' to avoid being prosecuted for using it to treat medical conditions, etc. They went from being a clinic with 'doctors' to a religion with 'ministers', but the practices stayed pretty much the same.

    Scientology is a money making fraudulent cult, not a church.

    I like the adage attributed to Abraham Lincoln that goes 'How many legs does a dog have, if you call the tail a leg? Answer; four. Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.'

    Tax exempt status had been sought by Hubbard since he first launched his "religion angle," complete with ministers in clerical collars, crosses on "Churches," and the accompanying benign-sounding 'Creed of the Church', meant to invite agreement from "wogs," as they were "gradiently" led into agreement with the idea that Scientology is a "religion."

    It's the religion angle and religious cloaking that allow Scientology to get away with so much fraudulent and abusive behavior.

    For years, Scientology has been dressing up Scientologists in minister's costumes, erecting huge crosses on buildings, saying, "religion," "my religion," "the Scientology religion," etc., and, through sheer repetition, the message has penetrated, just as L. Ron Hubbard said it would, the malleable minds of those at "lower awareness levels," etc. No matter the arguments, the Bronx cheers, and the protests, it's still penetrated.

    If Scientology's religion angle and its religious cloaking prevail, and to the point where even critics of Scientology are calling it - without "quote" marks - a "religion," and a "Church," then there's no chance that Scientology will reform. Why should it?

    About the IRS deal with Scientology:

    This man was convicted of "interfering with a religion," and sent to jail, for picketing outside Scientology's heavily armed, razor-wire enclosed, base outside Hemet, California.

    From Dulloldfart:


    Principal Organizations
    Religious Technology Center (RTC)
    Church of Spiritual Technology (CST)
    Church of Scientology International (CSI)
    Church of Scientology of California (CSC)

    Trademark Service Organizations
    Inspector General Network (IGN)
    IGN International AB
    Dianetics Centers International (DCI)
    Dianetics Foundation International (DFI)
    Hubbard Dianetics Foundation (HDF)
    WISE, Inc.

    Financial Trusts
    Author's Family Trust
    Church of Scientology Religious Trust (CSRT)
    Scientology International Reserves Trust (SIRT)
    Trust for Scientologists
    United States Parishioners Trust
    Flag Ship Trust (FST)
    International Publications Trust
    Scientology Defense Trust

    Financial Service Organizations
    SOR Services Ltd.
    Nesta Investments Ltd.
    FSO Oklahoma Investments Corporation
    Theta Management Ltd. (TML)

    Publishing Houses & Publication Organizations
    Golden Era Productions
    Author Services Inc. (ASI)
    Bridge Publications Inc. (BPI)
    New Era Publications ApS
    Scientology Publications Ltd.

    Secular & Social Management Entities
    Association for Better Living and Education International (ABLE)
    Applied Scholastics Inc.
    Citizens Commission on Human Rights International (CCHR)
    Criminon International
    Narconon International
    Way to Happiness Foundation International
    World Institute of Scientology Enterprises International (WISE)

    Other Management Organizations
    Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre International (CC Int.)
    International Hubbard Ecclesiastical League of Pastors (IHELP)
    Scientology Missions International (SMI)

    Service Organizations
    <snip mostly Church names>

    Membership Organizations

    Unincorporated Associations
    International Association of Scientologists (IAS)
    Hubbard Association of Scientologists International (HASI)

    Membership Service Organizations
    International Association of Scientologists Administrations, N.V. (IASA)
    Membership Services Administrations (UK) Ltd. (MSA)

    There are 41 names there, only 5 of which include the C-word. Local service orgs in the US and other religion-favouring countries usually include the C-word, and in countries that don't favour religions they don't. Expediency reigns supreme.

    Question for any residents of the "non" countries: when the cult hits the news there, is the main organization ever referred to, or is it just the name of the local branch? For example, does the media in Russia ever refer to CSI spokeperson Karin Pouw by name and title?


    I use the term CofS, when writing, although I really should use quotes around "CofS," and I sometimes write "Church" of Scientology, as that's easier than writing the so called Church of Scientology. It's more difficult to do when speaking unless one wishes to make quote marks in the air with one's fingers when speaking. Senator Xenophon is very clear in that he means "Church" of Scientology.

    Scientology has a decades long history of using the "religion angle" and "religious cloaking" to gain advantage, and to exempt itself from inspection and from laws.

    Scientology is a for-profit blackmail-collecting global scam masquerading as a religion.

    Prof. Steven Kent on 'Is Scientology a Religion?':

    Scientology doesn't really care whether some "wogs" or "SPs" or "DBs" think it's a "good religion" or a "bad religion." The "wogs" and "SPs" and "DBs" can argue about that all day long, as long as Scientology is regarded as a "Church" and a "religion."

    It's rare to encounter a Scientologist who knows what Scientology is, not because they're stupid, but because Scientology discourages its followers from finding out what it actually is and, ultimately, places them in a state of mind where they don't want to know even when they have the opportunity.

    A few bus loads of people such as this are useful for Public Relation purposes, especially when they are wearing big yellow Scientology is my religion buttons.

    These are the well-intentioned dupes, and are an essential component of the Scientology charade.

    If someone want to take some pieces of Dianetics and some pieces of Scientology, and use them benignly, or even "religiously," that's fine; however, Scientology it isn't.

    Scientology is a nasty piece of work, and is neither sincere nor religious.

    Responding to the assertion by another poster that Scientology's status as a (tax exempt, and exempt from various laws) "Church" is a "done deal":

    From Div6:

    I'm with Veda on this. Only in the US is it anywhere near "a done deal". In mexico it is a "philosophical society."

    From Senator Nick Xenophon:

    "What we are seeing is a worldwide pattern of abuse and criminality... On the body of evidence, this is not happening by accident; it is happening by design.

    In 1955, L. Ron Hubbard secretly authored this booklet to be used as a black propaganda vehicle for attacking his critics, by identifying them with Russian Communism. Some years later, the booklet slowly faded into obscurity. It was no longer useful as a propaganda vehicle. During the period of the Vietnam war, Hubbard had decided that "Nazi," not "Communist," was a more effective "button" to push, to influence public opinion to Scientology's advantage.

    Another reason for this booklet fading into obscurity was that Hubbard was now using many of its ideas and methods on his own followers, and on others. Hubbard had been doing this for many years prior, but it was now intensified. These ideas and methods are interwoven into Scientology doctrine, and integral to that doctrine.


    Senator Nick Xenophon continued:

    Scientology is not a religious organisation. It is a criminal organisation that hides behind its so-called religious beliefs."

    It's noteworthy that the first official body to recognize Hubbard's use of this booklet's ideas and methods was from Australia in the 1960s and, now, another Australian official is continuing the tradition of insightful and courageous truth-telling regarding the secretive cult of Scientology.

    From Free to shine:

    Why not just call it scientology???

    I have never called it a church and I never will. I don't even use a capital S unless it's the start of a sentence. I was there when it was decided that it should be a religion, and I know what a farce it was.

    I think it's only those who feel the need to be politically correct who use the word "Church", in the media and so on to avoid getting dogpiled for 'religious discrimination'.


    From Lermanet:

    In 1994, one of the used (Im not saying correct, just one of methods used) ways to guess who was either OSA or duped by osa or too dumb to be of any worth to the expose scientology movement anyway, was to see if they could say "XENU"...

    Ten years later, the rule of thumb *I* use, on all except for the very-newest-escapees, to determine this is DO THEY CALL IT A CHURCH or refer to it as a RELIGION. I feel it works for me, you're mileage may vary.

    Thoroughly understanding the materials collected on my RELIGIOUS CLOAKING PAGE leads to the inescapable conclusion that $cientology is an elaborate hypnotic FRAUD that has been CLOAKED using RELIGIOUS CLOAKING.


    This point is not lost on their own lawyers, and thorough application of such comprehensions demonstrated here.. in the last time $cientology tried to depose me in 1997 at the Law Offices of Mr Sinclair in Alexandria Virginia, a camera had been set up to video this, if you want proof ask OSA to post this video:


    Clam lawyer Rosen asked: Mr Lerma, why do you continue to say bad things about the Church of Scientology???

    Lerma: Mr Rosen, in your question, are you referring to the international psychopolitical terrorist organization running a rapidly shrinking but still brisk fraud upon innocent citizens worldwide dba scientology and related entities and front groups???

    Rosen (Face gets red) said (acting angry) (waving arms around) : Mr. Lerma, you can't describe the CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY that way.

    Lerma: Mr Rosen are trying to trick me into committing perjury on your behalf?

    Rosen: This deposition is OVER.

    THE END.

    Try to remember this one lesson:

    A person takes his first step to becoming a scientologist when they start to believe the first one of scientology's LIES and they are NOT really out of scientology's field of influence until they stop believing every lie.

    Arnie Lerma Exposing the CON since 1993
  7. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    He thought it was one.

    Putting it this way, he said he wouldn't do that stuff. Then he did the stuff. Tape after tape, we're better than that, those other guys, they did this and that, and ground their followers in the mud. Fast forward to Scn days. Hubbard did this and that and ground his followers in the mud.

    I don't give a goddamn whether Scn is a religion or CofS is a church. Or whether someone thinks it is but it really isn't or someone thinks it isn't but it really is.

    The point was that he purported to think it was a religion and was his church. And that he'd do so much better than the other guys.

    Then he failed.

  8. SpecialFrog

    SpecialFrog Silver Meritorious Patron

    Veda, I appreciate a lot of the info you post but if you have posted something before you can always just hyperlink. :)
  9. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Well, personally, I appreciate Veda's "public service announcements".

    He tends to keep these "always running" so that a new lurker might stumble across the information.

    But, I also understand how they do clutter up threads. :confused2:

    I think the positives of him doing so, and continuing to do so, largely outweigh the negatives. :yes:
  10. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller


  11. Mythbluster

    Mythbluster Patron

    May be nothing new to most of you but I just found a few quotes from good ol Ron I hadn't seen before at this site:

    Picked a few of my favourites. Whether he believes everything he says or not, entrusting ones spiritual or emotional development to the application of any of his "wisdom" is a more ludicrous idea than entrusting ... (I was going to make a witty comparison like entrusting child care of your teenage daughter to Charles Manson but in truth Im struggling think of anything truly ludicrous enough!)

    It doesn't give me displeasure to hear of a virgin being raped. The lot of women is to be fornicated. [Affirmations, 1947]
    They smell of all the baths they didnt take. The trouble with China is, there are too many chinks here. [Diary entry, 1927]
    Self analysis cannot revive the dead. Self analysis will not empty insane asylums or stop wars. These are the tasks of the dianetic auditor and the group dianetic technician. … A man could go mad simply reading this book. [Self Analysis, 1951]
    We, by the way, have generated atomic fission without the use of uranium. This is not a difficult thing to do. All you do is synthesize a gamma ray and synthesize some other rays and by concentrating them, you can get an atomic explosion. [Radiation, lecture 05 November 1956]
    Handling truth is a touchy business also. You don't have to tell everything you know — that would jam the comm lines too. Tell an acceptable truth. … So PR becomes the technique of communicating an acceptable truth — and which will attain the desirable result. [PR Series 2, The Missing Ingredient, 13 August 1970]
    Not smoking enough will cause lung cancer. Not smoking enough will cause lung cancer! If anybody is getting a cancerous activity in the lung, the probabilities are that it's radiation dosage coupled with the fact that he smokes. And what it does is start to run out the radiation dosage, don't you see. [SHSBC 35, 6107C19, Question & Answer Period: Auditor Effect On Meter, 19 October 1969]
    Scientology is the study of knowledge in its fullest sense. … brings you truth … brings you Total Freedom … applies modern scientific methodology to resolve the problems posed by philosophy, and has come up with the answers … deals with mental anatomy … is an aim at total knowledge … is applied philosophy. [Dianetics: Evolution Of A Science, quoted in the Foster Report, HMSO, December 1971]

    What a cool guy huh?
  12. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    That does not change what I said or what I was driving at. He's said a lot of things. I've heard him going on and on and on - on tape after tape about how he could do it better.

    I've also seen all those funny Advance Magazine articles where they'd take some elder religion, give it vague props, write a sort of synopsis, then write how Scn was better.

    Then, oh look, it really wasn't.
  13. Smilla

    Smilla Ordinary Human

    I think you might have missed it Claire, but you were checkmated by Infinite in post #508.

  14. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    No, I think you have the order of your names/pronouns mixed. The post was utterly ridiculous. It seemed to imply that Hubbard said only one thing.

    You might want to check Hubbard's tapes and all those dreary Advance Magazine articles.

    I don't see what the fuss is about.

    My point was that Hubbard purported to not make the mistakes of those other guys. Then he proceeded to make the mistakes of those other guys.

    It ain't rocket Scientology.
  15. exsomessenger

    exsomessenger Patron Meritorious

    :clap: :lol: oh my that is funny. your off the list for that one claire. :thumbsup:
  16. Smilla

    Smilla Ordinary Human

    'Rocket Scientology' is great. I love that.
  17. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Nobody has any idea what Hubbard really thought about various things.

    Hubbard wrote and said many things, such as "Scientology is a religion", blah-blah-blah. Remember, also, that he wrote lots of FICTION, both outside of and inside of Scientology.

    No person can know for sure whether Hubbard actually "really felt that Scientology was a religion". Personally, I don't think that he felt or believed much of anything, and his only criteria for "truth" was whatever he could get people to AGREE WITH (that would serve his own ends and fuel his gargantuan ego). THAT was his only index for "truth". He makes that quite clear in a great many of his books, policies and lectures.

    Hubbard stated a great many things, and one has to be a TOTAL FOOL to take anything he said at face value. Hubbard played with IDEAS the way a stage magician plays with props. He manipulated and interconnected various ideas to create an illusion. Some people fell for it. And, some are still falling for it . . . . .
  18. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Number of times over, works for me in getting my thinking straight. :thumbsup:
  19. Gib

    Gib Crusader


    "The group became known for an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, that called for active opposition to dictator Adolf Hitler's regime."

    Enter Anonymous on the internet. :thumbsup:
  20. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    "The group became known for an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, that called for active opposition to dictator Adolf Hitler's regime."

    I guess you can call them SP's from a Hilter and his group members point of view. :melodramatic: