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Discussion in 'Completions Lists' started by mow, May 15, 2008.
Kristi, don't remove any names
She took my name down after I emailed her. Told her I was under 18 for all my stats and it hadn't been my choice to take the courses. She was nice about it.
Bullshit. Especially egregious bullshit from someone who's still promoting the 'good' of Scientology.
Get real! You clearly do NOT live in the same environment I live in. Scientologists do NOT have a good reputation as "eager to do a good job" here. Even though it is illegal to discriminate due to religion you can bet your ass it happens every single day. I'm glad you expect you would not be put off by media reports, however, as an employer myself I can tell you one looks very hard at all aspects of a person before you hire them. Anything off beat like Scientology in the background is not a positive. No one would ell you "I'm not hiring because you were a scientologist" but you can be damn sure it would happen.
What?? Excuiting? Interesting, like what does leprosy really look like? No, a Scientology background would bring distrust and wariness in at least 90% of situations.
I realise I am a bit loud and extreme in my reaction to you here but I am boggle eyed at what you believe.
Outing someone without their consent is definately an act against someone. Thank goodness I never made it onto her lists. Reminds me of the lists the Nazis compiled.
Scientology and Scientologists have dropped into the category of crazy people, fringe lunacy in the public eye. Hell would you hire someone who believed that the mother ship was just over the horizon, and oh I'll need afternoons Thursdays off for the anal probing and gun cleaning. It is a total negative. The Church has managed to become a total negative. They've worked hard at it.
The only reference to any past I have in Scientology is truth about scn. From a long time ago and a galaxy away. But it has come up, and required handling, as a negative. Who knows how many interviews for jobs dropped me because of that slight sign of involvement.
No company will tell you they aren't hiring you because that other candidate was younger, prettier, hipper, or tell you that they didn't call you again because they didn't feel comfortable with that Scientology reference when they googled your ass.
Thank god I don't need to account for staff years on my resume.
So, she is someone you can talk to, and that's good. But instead of removing names of people who don't want to appear, I think is better to partially cover them, like Mark Ixxxxxxxx.
"Innocent" of what exactly? So I guess posting Advance mags online would be witch hunting? And posting who belongs to WISE? Who runs NarCONon and all the other front groups?
We should protect ALL scilons since some on the list left the CoS? That way when they sneak into a city like Las Cruces, NM under the Drug Free Marshall's program we have no way of finding out who they are since they always lie about it?
An employer can also find out if a person has ever been convicted of a crime on the internet. Should we make that information unavailable too?
This is simply a matter of the past coming back to bite us. Bawwing isn't going to change things...the cat's out of the bag.
Listing Scientologists & former Scientologists
I am troubled by this issue. If it is not OK for me to say that somebody is or was a Scientologist, then I can't even write my own story without using fake names. I think I should be able to say what happened in my life and with whom. As long as I am saying the truth, I should be free to say what happened. I try to be courteous, but I have to balance that courtesy against my freedom of speech. If I had to get everyone's approval on what I said about them, I would say very little at all, and I'd feel just as I did within Scientology: I couldn't communicate anything but "success stories". Imagine if you took everyone's stories on ESMB and removed all the real names. That would greatly reduce their credibility and helpfulness of these stories to help each other understand what happened.
It is my opinion that if someone is discriminating against you because Kristi has accurately listed you as having been a Scientologist, then Kristi is the wrong target for your complaint. The person doing the discrimination needs correction, as does the Church of Scientology for creating such a bad image of itself and thereby a bad image of you.
Tricky, isn't it? I have a couple of websites listing names and I can't easily work it out.
It's fine if you can have a decent chat with the person doing the discrimination, because then it is easy enough to clear up. Just like a practitioner who was formerly an auditor can clear it up with a prospective client. But that works only if you get the chance to have a decent chat. If the decision is taken without further input and purely on the basis of "he once worked for that batshit crazy cult!" then that is something else.
Thanks for responding. Yeah, it is tricky. I also realized that I am not being fair in my story. I give some people's full names, some people I just named with a letter "uncle D", and some people I didn't name at all. I don't know how to do this right. But I feel I must communicate with you all and with people who are lurking. I'll try my best to be respectful.
How does anyone write a biography?
Depends what light you want to show the people in, if any. You usually have a considerable amount of discretion over that. Publishing relatively complete lists of completions or staff members or something similar is different, though.
CoS publishes completions all the time, as well as IAS patrons and the like. Kristi's list isn't the only one out there. A lot of the CoS material is now on the internet.
I just keep thinking about this issue. What if the kids hadn't told their story about The Mace-Kingsley Ranch School and how Hanks molested the kids? Or it had been censored? We wouldn't know the name of a paedophile who is possibly still out there molesting little girls.
Should we be upset about whyaretheydead since it names names? Should it just be a gallery of nameless photos since someone that was "innocent" might be involved in the person's story?
Is it wrong to list the people who are on the RPF? Or the people you were on staff with? The guy's name who walked up and punched you out for laughs?
Should John's book be banned because he names people? What about all the other books and stories out there that mention people by name? Would it make everyone feel better if the internet just got taken down totally? I'm sure the CoS would love that.
Where does censorship and revisionism end? Is China our enemy or is it Russia this month? Did LRH call blacks niggers in a letter to his wife? Not according to the CoS.
It's a slippery slope.
Great post. Good questions.
For me the overriding issue is that the 'Church' of Scientology is a secret and secretive organization that thrives on ignorance and deception and *false* information. Faked 'stats' are essential to the organization. Hiding is essential to the organization.
The 'completion lists' are far from being anything like complete or illuminating, but, they're the best *we* have. Or had. Thankfully, we now have many 'insider stories', but, the compiled lists that Kristi (and some others) have put together are valuable data. And, they have been invaluable already, whether in demonstrating the falsity of the 'expansion' or unmasking the 'I'm not a Scientologist, but...' people who routinely show up to pump PR.
The 'I Am A Scientologist' pages were also valuable, but, they're long since not being updated and were never as complete as the 'completion lists'. It's not about a 'witch hunt', it's about *data*. Public Data on an organization that *hates* truth.
I figured it was about time I ventured into this lion's den and give you more information in hopes that you will have a better understanding of the completion lists on Kristi's site.
I am the originator of the lists and have probably contributed to 70-80% of those published lists. Let me give you the history of the Scn Completion lists. I think it time to tell the story. Sit back, grab the popcorn, this might be a long one. Long for me that is. I don't usually write more than a few lines these days.
[cue the trumpets]
I left Scn sometime back in 1999-2000. I had been working for a Sun glass company, called Sunny Days Marketing, selling sun glasses on the side of the road. It was a living and a whole nother story of insanity.
Through a series of cognitive dissonance events, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance, I ended up on the internet. Thank fucking Xenu for the internet!
Like most ex's who happen upon the world of Scientology on the internet, I was most definitely in shock and awe of what I was reading. Talk about cognition!
I was both exhilarated and dismayed. Happy to find out the truth and completely gobsmacked by it all. It was too much to process at once. After all, I was a hard core member, I was in for almost 30 years and had been involved in doing some shady shit with OSA as long time volunteer for their Invest Branch. I was a full fledged true believer and never in 75 million years would I have thought that I would be an Ex Scientologist critic/SP. Nevah evah!
Just like everyone else I was glued to the computer for weeks reading everything I could find. I used to get a feeling of terror when I first started reading critical sites. Intense fear about what I was doing and if it was wrong or evil. But I'd push through it and say that it's only data, and data can't hurt me. And back in 2000, there was really not that much on the net, not in comparsion to what you can find now, which is just about everything, including... ahem... completion lists.
After a time, I decided I wanted to be in touch with some of the critics on alt.religion.scientology which was really the only means of communicating with critics at that time. With help I figured out how to post anonymously and posted as Cerridwen through the use of remailers.
Having first hand knowledge to the way OSA invest worked, I knew that it was essential to stay anonymous, otherwise the wrath of Xenu would be upon me. But I couldn't stay quiet. I was srsly pissed off about what was going on inside MY church. The lies, the false stats, the alter is of the tech, that shit really pissed me off and I was going to do something about it!
When I first started reading ars I was so very impressed with the critics because they demanded dox. For 30 years, I sat there and sopped up lies and PR from the C of S because I was in fear of asking for dox. We all know you can't ask for dox when in Scn. It's just not allowed. To ask for dox to back up stats or "facts" given by Int Mgmt would indicate that you had crimes for ever thinking to doubt Int Mgmt. So that was something you definitely did not do.
So I decided to take on a little stats project on my own. I gathered a bunch of Scn Magazines, specifically Source and Advance and started counting and tallying completions from the Completions list. I figured that after 6 months or more I could post some stats and talk about it on ars. But then I thought, hmmm, I need to provide dox for this because if I just post random numbers and say, this is the tally, then one of the critics is bound to say, prove it with dox.
So I began a project of typing the entire completion list for each magazine I received from them. I even went out and purchased this big magnifying lamp thingie so I could read the tiny font they use.
When I'd post a completion list to ars, I would notice it would become an active thread as critics and Ex's that posted there would know some of the names and link to news stories that the Scio was involved in. I also noticed that Ex's would comment about friends still in and happy to at least know that they were still alive.
After months of posting the lists I'd do a little analysis of sorts.
Here's an example:
Shortly after that Kristi and I got in touch and she told me that I no longer had to hand count all the lists, but instead, I could just send the lists to her and she would write a program, so they would be counted in a flash.
Kristi is some kind of genius computer girl and she went on to design HORTON.
HORTON, Holder of Records Tallier of Numbers, takes the completion list and does a bunch of magical things that I have no understanding of, including spitting out all kinds of stats.
OK so now back to the issue of the completion lists and your names being on them and why they aren't being taken off.
First let me refer you to this page.
Especially this section:
"I've found my name on the list and don't want to be listed. Will you take me off your site?
I'm sorry, but I think it's important that the data remain intact so that other researchers can use it, as described above.
I am very interested in accuracy, though, so if you find incorrect information on my site - whether in these lists or elsewhere - please let me know."
That was from Kristi. The names will stay as they are evidence as to Scn's constant lying to their faithful about their "unprecedented expansion" We all know that Scios are stats freaks. If actual stats, with real evidence is out there for Scios to see, then maybe it will be the cognitive dissonance that will snap them out of the cult.
The lists have many more uses of course, most of them for researchers working on exposing Scn. I am truly sorry that some of you are upset because your name appears on the list and you have been confronted with it or that it has harmed you in some way. It was certainly not my or Kristi's intention for this. Actually, the webbing of all those lists had multiple purposes, not just as documentation to the shrinking of Scn but also as a lure to get Scientologists to visit that site when they put their name into a search engine.
If you look over TAS, you will see that it's somewhat Scio friendly. There is no Xenu there or confidential stuff. It talks about things that Scios still in might dare to read, stuff like stats and squirreling of tech. That site has always had the intention of bring Scios still in to a safe place to read about the Church, from there, they can wander to other more critical sites. So that's another reason for the lists being there.
I took the time to post this info, because as soon as I get off my lazy ass, I'm gonna start up with the completion lists project again, I haven't done anything on it in over a year and it's time to get some stats together. Here's my problem. My source for the magazines is gone. I need some help in getting lists for 2007 and 2008. Anyone who has magazines from this time could pm me or email me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Thank you and damn it!
Very much appreciate this post! And, DAMN! I just started dumpin' all that material in recycle a couple of weeks ago.
Mike the EP's EP
Many thanks for all your work on this, Patty. The world owes you for supplying the dox.
I'm sure some people have a few mags lying about. Maybe you could list out the ones you need - issue numbers and dates - and people could say what they have and are willing to send.
Thanks for posting that, pooks. And thanks for all your work!
I don't think a day goes by that someone doesn't look someone up on that site. It will probably go down as one of the most used tools ever in exposing the cult. I doubt that it will be remembered as the witch hunting site.
Zinj is right. Scientology wouldn't exist without all the subterfuge and secrets.
I say bring it all into the light. Let it be shouted from the rooftops!