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Update into the criminal investigation of David Miscavige and Scientology

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Lovinglife625, Mar 8, 2007.

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  1. Lovinglife625

    Lovinglife625 Patron with Honors

    Hi Folks

    This is my first posting on this site. I mostly post on XSO (as "LovingLife625") and I do post a bit on ars (as "SME").

    I want to refer you to a document I just put on this site which you can find at:

    I was going to be making this post tomorrow but as someone else just released the news on ars, I wanted this information to be available on here as well.

    The document referred to above is a very slight update to the one put on ars a few hours ago.

    Basically it lists quite a number of questions being asked of both current and ex staff and scientologists as part of an investigation into illegal and unethical activities within organized scientology.

    It seeks information and especially wants any information concerning David Miscavige and three of their top attorneys.

    One thing I like about the questionnaire is that it is very honest up front as to what it plans to do with the information collected. You can see this on page three as it gives five examples of how the information will be used with their intention "to force Scientology to stop abusing its members, former members, and critics through ethical use of justice systems throughout the world".

    The group collecting the information is Factnet and I can assure you that Factnet has no connections whatsoever to the church and is not an OSA Op. (To say the least lol)

    Why am I telling you this?

    I'm not asking anyone to do anything about this. I just think it is right that you all know this is really going on.

    I have been a member of the XSO group for some months now and have very much enjoyed being a member there. But, both in posts there and in many private chats and emails I have noticed that some people want to do something about the lies and abuses that do exist in current organized scientology but have no idea how they can do anything about it.

    I suggest that this may be helpful to some of you in taking some action. I cannot guarantee anything about whether the information you supply will be used or not. I can guarantee that some people involved with this want to stop the abuses and do intend to fight them in all the ways mentioned on page three of the document.

    It is my belief that abuses truly cannot last forever and that the church is truly going to have to confront some major criminal and civil actions in the future that will go beyond anything they have confronted before. And I truly believe this also applies to both press and books being written now.

    And, if you do participate, please remember that only the truth is being sought. This is not a "witch hunt".

    OSA truly has no real clue just how much is going on now to fight injustices, abuses and illegal activities of which they have been a part. I believe they think their lies have "won the day" but they could not be more wrong.

    Heck, I have not even been trying to be much of a part of this other than to correct some lies said in courts and suddenly I have so many people including various types of writers contacting me to help them understand things that they have been lied to about by OSA.

    I don't know where this is all going to end up for sure, nor do I necessarily recommend this to any of you. But I think that you deserve to know this. I truly do believe that based on many years of involvement with "external affairs" matters for the church that what is ahead of them is far worse than what they have seen before. And I believe this has to do with the fact that the abuses have been far worse than ever before.

    And to any OSA spy(s) that might be reading posts in this forum, I ask you to follow your heart and do what is right. Yes, this questionnaire does warn you on pages two and three that you have personal legal liability with respect to crimes carried out by the church and that "following policy", "following orders" and the like will not be defenses for you. BUT, I think that you should end your spying and do what is right and help here because it is simply the right thing to do.

    As for me, whatever information I may supply or may have supplied, has not nor will it ever say anything about another ex scientologist. Nor will I help locate another person or ever say what I have been told privately by another.

    Anyway, I've said my piece and completely respect whatever decisions anyone makes about this.

    Oh, and BTW, hi everyone, it's nice to be here:) lol

  2. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    removed my post.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2007
  3. Pooks



    Thanks for stepping up and getting all this organized.

    You're the best.


  4. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    I removed my post because even though I want the church abuses ended I want the tech to continue to be used and not destoryed like this poster wants to do.

    I also am for religiousfreedom from copyrights.

    I am freezone so I will not condone anything that wants to destory what works if done properly and that is what this poster wants to do.

    The freezone probably would help if it was aimed at true reform in the church.

    This is why I deleted my post.

  5. Lovinglife625

    Lovinglife625 Patron with Honors

    Hiya Fancy

    I really do appreciate your post. As well, I respect your opinions.

    Since you are referring to me as the poster, I wanted to clarify something.

    I am supporting this investigation in an effort to help stop abuses and crimes within organized scientology.

    While I am not freezone, nor do I intend to do auditing again, I very much am in support of people being free to do whatever it is they feel helps them and their loved ones as long as they are not hurting others.

    I don't care if it's Scientology, Islam, Christianity, Buddism, Wicca, whatever.

    Anyway, no biggee here but I just wanted to clarify my position here.

    All the Best,
  6. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    What are the ramifications of filling this out and sending it to FACTNet?

    Will Scientology get a copy with your personal info?

    Will you be supeonaed?

    What other ramifications would it have for you and your family?

    I think most people want to have the full info on stuff like this before they would submit this.
  7. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    Some of your questions do not point that way. It points to destorying tech.

    I am sorry you were not handled right and I respect that you will not get auditing.

    I have known what auditing can do and what damage being handled wrong can do as well.

    My thoughts are this that only people with life experience should be the church pro auditors. One can't teach that anywhere or on any mental training of any kind what so ever, every where. The students are to be made aware of what can go wrong and how to handle it. No pro paid auditing should get student auditors.

    I had a young auditor and he was not bad but he did not know how to handle life with experience nor did he have any training about people and was giving bad advice and I paid the price of it. I also caused it as well in my way. Not to bright of me.

    Anyhow if you are doing this then I would like you to restore the church to what it should be and not kill it but get reforms in as a church. Get it back on track for those who want to do the orignal stuff before it went south.
  8. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    What I don't really get, from what you've said, is what you need the 'Church' for. The 'Tech' is out and available, and, with the possible (but unlikely) exception of 'forgeries', it should be easy for anyone to acquire every version; from the most pristine and primitive beginnings to those altered by 'Ron' Himself and thense to the most blatantly castrated editions of 'Current Management'.

    That's as it should be, and, since you would like an end to 'copyright' limitations on availability, I would think it's what you want too.

    Once *everything* is 'out' there's no need for a 'watchdog organization' that rides herd over the 'purity'.

    Admittedly, there could be questions of 'taste' and I could imagine that various schisms or factions or even 'squirrels' might offer opinions on 'which' piece of the 'Tech' is most valid and 'effective', but, that's something that is easily handled in the free marketplace of ideas.

    No need for the 'Church' at *all*.

    Nor, for the purposes you *mention* is there any need for the 'Scientology Movement' or 'Current Management' or, for that matter, *any* management.

    So, I'm not entirely 'clear' what your problem with SME's post is. He's not trying to 'destroy the Tech', since it *can't* be destroyed; at least not if it's widely enough available.

    He's just calling for holding Scientology Management *responsible* for the crimes they've committed.

    What's wrong with that?

  9. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    You have a good point.

    But the constant attacks on the tech has the effect of destoryiing it and people willing to look for what works for them. They will scoff at it. But those who think will look for themselves.

    The point of some of the questions do point out the tech damges people and should not be allowed to exist.

    The freezone will keep it alive and yes there is no need for a church to keep it alive. I still would not want it destoryed for there are good people there and I would like to see it reformed and stick to the orignal goals.

    Maybe one day the freezone will take over the church.
  10. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Huh? It's not like one multinational corporation making a takeover bid for another. The two are not entities of comparable magnitude, to put it mildly.
    The FZ isn't even really an entity--it's just a convenient name for a large bunch of individuals and small groups still interested in parts or all of Scn technology, but outside the clutches of the :shark:. Most members of the FZ operate independently of each other. That's what I like about it: it's free!:duh:

  11. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    It depends on what you mean by the 'original goal'. Beyond 'Dianetics', which was more of a 'pie-in-the-sky-personal-therapy-you'll-feel-better' type individual thangy the 'original' goals of Scientology were *always* reprehensible. The goals of the 'movement' were *always* totalitarian, intolerant, megalomanic and objectionable.

    If by 'destroying the Tech' you mean the 'KSW' style 'goal' of the 'Clear Planet' and 100% compliance with Scientology for *all* and replacement of everything by Scientology 'pod-people' type versions of same...

    Well, then I'm all for 'destroying the Tech' :)

    If 'destroying the Tech' means confiscating all Scientology books and tapes and making a big bonfire and arresting people who are doing 'touch assists' or auditing or 'processes' in their own home, then I'm *not* in favor of 'destroying the Tech'. If nothing else, the 'cure' is worse than the disease.

    If by 'destroying the Tech' you mean holding it up to ridicule and creating a social climate where recruiting and marketing the wonders of Scientology becomes practically impossible because it *is* ridiculous..

    Well, that's the way the 'movement' crumbles.

    Scientology has no inherent 'right' to be taken seriously; nor does it have any special 'right' to 'fresh meat'.

    I doubt seriiously that there is any danger of 'The Tech' disappearing from the world anytime soon; so, it won't be 'destroyed'.

    I'm sure there are still practicing phrenologists around too. :)

  12. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    It will continue so you are right there and those it helps willl continue on with it. Those who don't like it will continue what they do.

    Nothing I can do or say will change that.

    I do understand that some do think it is bunk and I can see how it became that way.

    I also know for myself what it can do but if what happened to me did without me knowing what it can be done I could see how one can become critic or just walk away.

    There is not much I can say on this because I am not good at debating.

  13. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    I sure hope you're not getting the impression that I don't want to hear what you say, however much I might disagree with your conclusions.

    In a way I see any 'discussion' of this kind as both a clash of ideas and a clash of personalities, and, overriding both, a meeting of minds, however little they 'mesh' :)

    As a non-Scientologist, I pretty much reject the concept of ARC as an 'ideal' to strive for, and especially dislike 'duplication' as a necessity to ARC.

    Our ideas can 'debate' all they want, and we can still be people carrying them, and, letting them feud, however unlikely any 'final victory'.

    You don't have to debate to speak your mind :)

    Hopefully you will continue to do so.

  14. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Oh yeah, it's irrelevant, but, I've always had a fond feeling for your posts, even when I disagreed with them, since 'Fancy' was the name of my favorite band I was in back 30 years ago or so in Germany.

    Yes, it is irrelevant, but, it was a really cool band :)

  15. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious


    Today I don't feel like debating or talking very much. I bought a car yesterday and someone driving the town's senior van decided hitting me in the back would be a great idea. I am glad I saw them and hit the horn and work them up. I got off easy compared to what could have been.

    I don't feel so hot today so I am not arguing it.

    I can see what ARC is about and it took me about 20 years or more to get the proper idea of what it is. It hit me like a ton of bricks when I figured it out that it makes tons of sense.

    Anyhow I am going for tonight. I got insurance companies to chase after tomrrow.

    Yes, My name is Barb and OSA knows who I am. I just got tired of my other name I used so I choose the name of my cat.

  16. Emma

    Emma Con te partirĂ² Administrator

    God Damn!

    I wonder what the statistics are for getting hit the day you buy a car. I bet it's higher than it should be. That sucks. I'm sorry to hear about it.
  17. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    That is ok. It is going to be fixed. The best part is I woke him up in time not to kill me. He just clipped me.

    The repair shop found more damage that I had missed. The town's insurance is going to pay for it.

    What gets me is he was the senior citizens van driver. I don't think he had anyone in there.

    It is high and if one believes one's pulls it in then I probably did. I was paranoid about getting hit like that. So now I can say I did it and got it over with.

  18. ron's hat

    ron's hat Patron with Honors

    What you resist you become
  19. Fancy

    Fancy Patron Meritorious

    I know and it happened that way.

  20. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Questionairre sounds like snitches for the I.R.S..

    Who the hell would support those criminals called the I.R.S.?

    Tax his land,
    Tax his bed,
    Tax the table
    At which he's fed.

    Tax his tractor,
    Tax his mule,
    Teach him taxes
    Are the rule.

    Tax his cow,
    Tax his goat,
    Tax his pants,
    Tax his coat.

    Tax his ties,
    Tax his shirt,
    Tax his work,
    Tax his dirt.

    Tax his tobacco,
    Tax his drink,
    Tax him if he
    Tries to think.

    Tax his cigars,
    Tax his beers,
    If he cries, then
    Tax his tears.

    Tax his car,
    Tax his gas,
    Find other ways
    To tax his ass

    Tax all he has
    Then let him know
    That you won't be done
    Till he has no dough.

    When he screams and hollers,
    Then tax him some more,
    Tax him till
    He's good and sore.

    Then tax his coffin,
    Tax his grave,
    Tax the sod in
    Which he's laid.

    Put these words
    upon his tomb,
    "Taxes drove me
    to my doom..."

    When he's gone,
    Do not relax,
    Its time to apply
    The inheritance tax.

    Accounts Receivable Tax
    Building Permit Tax
    CDL license Tax
    Cigarette Tax
    Corporate Income Tax
    Dog License Tax
    Federal Income Tax
    Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
    Fishing License Tax
    Food License Tax,
    Fuel permit tax
    Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
    Hunting License Tax
    Inheritance Tax
    Interest expense
    Inventory tax
    IRS Interest Charges
    IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
    Liquor Tax
    Luxury Taxes
    Marriage License Tax
    Medicare Tax
    Property Tax
    Real Estate Tax
    Service charge taxes
    Social Security Tax
    Road usage taxes
    Sales Tax
    Recreational Vehicle Tax
    School Tax
    State Income Tax
    State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
    Telephone federal excise tax
    Telephone federal universal service fee tax
    Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
    Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
    Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
    Telephone state and local tax
    Telephone usage charge tax
    Utility Taxes
    Vehicle License Registration Tax
    Vehicle Sales Tax
    Watercraft registration Tax
    Well Permit Tax
    Workers Compensation Tax

    COMMENTS: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

    What happened?

    And I STILL have to "press 1 for English"! ! !