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VV: Scientology - Mike Rinder on "The Hole," Indoctrination, Confessions, ...

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by Mike Laws, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's some tech for you. Enjoy!

    Tech from a book, a booklet, a Professional Auditors Bulletin, some lectures, and some HCOBs (and one paragraph of green on white). It's a small sampling of the, ah, "problems" to be found in Hubbard's wonderful tech tech:

    According to L. Ron Hubbard, sexual perverts, including homosexuals, are made by:

    Kicking a baby's head in,
    running over him with a steamroller,
    cutting him in half with a rusty knife,
    boiling him in Lysol,
    and all the while with crazy people
    screaming the most horrifying
    and unprintable things at him.

    From 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health'

    On the topic of sex, in 'The Way To Happiness', Hubbard advised against promiscuity, explaining that, "A 'feeling of guilt' is no where near as sharp as ground glass in the soup."

    (This one precept has resulted in a drastic reduction of the consumption of soup by married Scientologists.)

    But all that aside, for good wholesome heterosexual married couples, who were faithful to each other and avoided such unpleasantness as knives in the back or ground glass in the soup, there was enjoyable heterosexual sex.

    Uh, well, not exactly...



    There are two items in this universe that cause more trouble than many others combined.

    One is PAIN.

    The other is SEX.

    One should know more about these things.

    They may have applications but they are used by destructive beings in great volume to cave others in.

    Despite the false data of Freud, psychologists, psychiatrists and other criminals, they are not native to a being. They are only artificial wavelengths. They have exact frequencies that can be manufactured. A being or a machine can synthesize either one.

    Pain becomes a lock on a being’s abhorrence for misalignment of his own electrical flows. It is a lock upon unconsciousness which shuts off knowingness. Sex is a lock on and perversion of the “joy of creation” which involves a whole being and expands him, but by using just one wavelength, sex, this can be perverted and he contracts.

    When pain enters a scene, a being withdraws, contracts and can go unconscious. When sex enters the scene, a being fixates and loses power.

    Destructive creatures who do not want people big or reaching—since they are terrified of punishment due to their crimes—invented pain and sex to shrink people and cut their alertness, knowingness, power and reach.

    Go into an asylum or a prison and look at the increasing institutional population and know what you are looking at. In the main, these are pain and sex addicts, decadent and degraded and no longer capable. They were sent on that route down through the ages by the psychs and here they are still in the psychs’ hands! And do they get well or go straight? Oh no. Whether in prisons or insane asylums they just get worse. And the psychs in both places rub their bloodied hands as they turn their products loose again upon the remaining population! It’s no accident. And the stocks in-trade of psychs are PAIN and SEX. They will even tell you it’s “natural” to steal!

    To compound their felony—if that is possible—they tell you it’s the body doing it. Another crashing big false datum on top of all their other lies.

    These are data which emerged from recent thorough research of the whole track. This is not theory or some strange opinion. It is provable electronic fact. The waves are just synthesized.

    They are the most-used tools in the campaign against beings in furthering the general goal of those creatures whose sole ambition is destruction. The universe does not happen to be either destructive or chaotic except as such obsessed creeps make it.

    In the 1950s, as a way of covering for the fact that some people had mental breakdowns after Scientology involvement, Hubbard told Scientologists about LSD - the "insanity drug" - which, according to Hubbard, was covertly used by medical doctors and psychiatrists to undermine and discredit Scientology.

    From the 'Professional Auditors Bulletin' of 30 September 1955:

    "I could tell you about long strings of psychotics run in on the Foundation and the Association, sent in to us by psychiatrists who then, using LSD and pain-drug-hypnosis, spun them and told everyone that Dianetics and Scientology drove people insane. I could tell you about the strange politics and ambitions of psychiatry, so well covered in the book Psycho-politics [Note: Hubbard's hoax Russian textbook, which he had just secretly authored and was not yet published] , and give you a proper riddle as to why we, a small group, the only ANGLO-SAXON DEVELOPMENT IN THE FIELD OF THE MIND AND SPIRIT [sic], have been subjected to so much attack and finance... But I am not telling you stories or being dramatic. I am inviting your cooperation in your own future security..."

    As for dealing with those whose behavior became erratic or an embarrassment after Scientology processing, Hubbard wrote, in the same 'PAB':

    "You'll find the family physician or psychiatrist was called in midway in processing... You'll find there is a vested interest somewhere in the insanity of the person. An so testify that you suspect it. We will have on hand lots of literature on LSD..."

    Sixteen years later, Hubbard would write a similar statement, although this one doesn't mention LSD and is more to the point. It has the simple title 'Confidential', and is dated 29 June 1971:

    "Policy is that we assign any case or upset in Scientology to past damage and interference with the person by medicine or psychiatry. They were sent into us after medicine or psychiatry had already destroyed them. We cannot be blamed for psychiatric or medical failures."

    Now, rather than "psychs," it's "reverse Scientology" applied by the "anti-Christ" of Scientology, David Miscavige.

    But wait, here's some more tech!

    The Children's Security Check from HCOB 21 September 1961



    I have made a technical breakthrough which possibly ranks with the major discoveries of the twentieth century. It is certainly the greatest achievement of 1973 and is now being released after a final write-up of the research. It is called the Introspection Rundown.​



    Psychos in ISOLATION




    The anti-Scientologist

    H,E&R, Human Emotion and Reaction

    Homo Saps


    Here are some more excerpts from the 1976 edition of the 'Red Volumes'. It's an HCOB from January 1974.

    In 1970 the actual cause of PSYCHOSIS was isolated... In the ensuing years this has been proven beyond doubt to be correct.

    But what is a psychotic break?

    Man has never been able to solve the psychotic break. In fact, human beings are actually afraid of a person in a psychotic break and in desperation turn to psychiatry to handle.

    [And here Hubbard goes on about psychiatry, ice picks, electric shocks, etc., then...]


    [Then there are the steps of the RD, and the HCOB ends with...]


    [Then there's the HCOB of February 1974, titled...]



    In a person in a psychotic break, it is necessary to isolate them for them to destimulate and to protect them and others from possible damage...

    There comes a point where the C/S must decide to release the person from isolation. To do this the C/S must know if the person can take responsibility for his actions...

    The C/S's action is a direct comm line to the person by notes. The person is provided with paper and pen to reply. The C/S must determine the person's responsibility level. Example: "Dear Joe. What can you guarantee me if you are let out of isolation?"... "Dear Joe. I'm sorry but no go on coming out of isolation yet. Your actions threatened the survival of hundreds of people indirectly and 6 families directly by burning down their houses. You are unaware of the effects this could have had and still only concerned about your own welfare. You must hate the human race quite a bit."

    [This eventually leads to the cognition...]

    "But, but, I never meant to threaten others' survival. I just wanted to burn down their houses because I like fires. Gosh, I didn't mean it. I don't hate the human race. Oh, I really don't hate the human race."

    Scientologists - both inside and outside the CofS - value highly anyone who is a "Class VIII."

    Here's a sampling of some of Hubbard's teachings on the Class VIII course:

    Most anything in Scientology has a hidden twist to it, reflecting its founder's hidden agenda. Auditing, which at first is simple and benign, changes, as one continues in Scientology. This is in accordance with the "bait and switch" pattern of Scientology, with the "switch" part occurring majorly around the point where Scientology becomes "confidential."

    Even the Admin tech has some "sane" components, especially around the fringes. In fact, the fringes of Scientology - tech tech, admin tech, and ethics tech - are meant to be agreeable to those at the lower part of the Hubbard scale of awareness characteristics, such as wogs, etc.

    We are now watching another phase of the ongoing intra-Hubbardite war, with Hubbardites vs Hubbardites, each quoting L. Ron Hubbard. It can become a tad strange. :unsure:
  2. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    Thank you for the summary, lurkanon.

    I find it interesting that the concept of ethics protection for being "upstat" (pays a lot of money, reges a lot of money, etc.) was not followed as severely for a few years in the 80s. There were a few good people over ethics and justice then and they knew nobody has a free ticket to commit crimes, and doing well in one area doesn't mean one can't be criminal in another.The late 70s were altogether different - NObody was safe no matter what you did, as the GO was running the show and could always find something to prove one was "out-ethics" anyway.

    The current COS seems to be a deadly combination of both extremes.

    The degeneration of the organisation itself into a dangerously fanatical one whose members apply extremist policies without personal judgement or consideration has gone on since its inception. It had to happen, because L Ron wrote in an extremist, exaggerated, "this is always true as fact" fashion.

    If I were to graph COS' progress toward insane fanaticism (ha ha...graphs :eyeroll:) it would show a 45 degree angle since at least the inception of the Sea Org, probably earlier.

    With this progression, things will get much worse for COS staff, families and those affected by Scn before they get better. The final extremes of fanatical groups are suicide, violence, criminality and terrorism. How long will it take now before the final vestiges of decency or integrity leave COS members completely? I would say ten years at most, but it could be much, much sooner.

    The FBI needs to be concerned. Very concerned. And they should be offering some of these witnesses to crimes immunity just to prevent the writing on the wall and save the lives of those left and the unfortunates they hurt in their extremist, fanatical defense of COS.

    At the end of the day, I don't care if they are punished by society if they come forward legally with all the details they have of these crimes and see that this evil machine is destroyed and put all their efforts into doing so.

    I like Mark Baker's feedback on this and many other issues, because he sees the evil machine for what it is and wants it stopped. I believe he also sees a number of fanatical evils written into the tek and though he defends it, he does not defend L Ron's sanity or goodness. I still can't quite relate to Mark, but at least this one practicing FZer does not deny the evil. I wish all Indies and FZers could see it.
  3. Ogsonofgroo

    Ogsonofgroo Crusader

    Just one of many things to atone for imho, there is a closet full of skeletons I think, and the door is slowly rotting away... the sun is shining.
  4. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Hubbard wrote the instructions authorizing the abuse - from spitting in the face, to hitting, to imprisoning. Per Hubbard's instructions, Scientology is a secretive operation run as a "tight conspiracy," with a multi-layered secret doctrine. It's a black hole.
  5. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    I disagree with the main point of that piece, Mark. I don't think it is envy at all, but the mechanism of people not willing to form their own opinion but needing to adopt that of an opinion leader, as Hubbard described. I guess he stole the idea (Bernays maybe) but I [STRIKE]don't[/STRIKE] didn't know the actual source.

    I looked it up:

  6. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    Yes - but I also see Mark's point. There is a subculture within Scn called OSA, there is a subculture within Scn called the Sea Org. There is a subculture of heavy greed, control and coercion that has made these cultures degenerate into the worst they could be.

    It's the Stanford Prison Experiment. The contained culture itself wore it down. Yes, the policies are there - it was inevitable.
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    It's not just "policy." It's also "tech." They are interwoven. Even their built-in secretiveness, duplicity, and manipulativeness are interwoven.

    Some "good" can be "salvaged" from Scientology, but if the salvagers are honest - and no longer entranced - they'll admit what's left is not the doctrine of Scientology anymore, and that they are no longer Scientologists.
  8. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Dats da freaky, funky thing about people that "apply" Scientology. They could be adrift in the icy ocean, clinging onto some wooden flotsam as the sinking Titanic makes its final submersion into the depths.

    But they would still be using their fingernail on the plank to scratch out a "Success Story" about their win while aboard the luxury vessel.

    Scientologists don't get it. If they got it they wouldn't be Scientologists.

    [stage manager cues Terril and Mark Baker to enter stage left and begin reciting tech wins]
  9. DoneDeal

    DoneDeal Patron Meritorious

    Those words of yours also demonstrate an attitude about people in general.

    There were lot's and lot's of able people back then who proceeded to be very productive and build the world we enjoy today.

    Just cause ronald was a loser and had to become a psycho crook doesn't mean the majority was back then.

    I picked up my bad attitudes cause I agreed with them. They served some purpose for me.
  10. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    Veda, you have done a more in-depth, intelligent study of both policy and tech than anyone I've known, in Scn or on ESMB or WWP, so I highly regard your opinions and comments. Personally I've studied all the green vols (OEC & ESTO), and a great deal of the red, done 9 years hard time in the SO, Cl V, HPWCC, OT5 and if that weren't enough, so many full hats I could puke. :puke:

    I agree with you 96% on this and would like you to consider the other 4%.

    1) I believe people call themselves Scns after leaving COS because of the group thing. We could discuss this for pages, but I don't believe I have to explain it to you. It is a natural human need, and a more pronounced need in those who were in - one that I believe has no other possible means of relief other than becoming part of a tight group again.

    2) There will always be a small percentage of people that do not fit the scn robotic persona. All statistics measuring anything have an error rate or some that fall completely away from the scale of measurement. Sure, it's rare to find an FZer or Indie who acknowledges and believes the abuses, the inconsistencies, Hubbard's personal craziness, the evils of policy and evils of much of the tech and truly has compassion for everyone and wants to see the wrongs righted. Maybe this person doesn't exist, but statistics say this person not only can, but does. The error rate of any conclusion is STILL 3-5% statistically no matter what you measure. So I think there are a few people on ESMB that are in that 3-5% and I don't want to generalize about them.

    3) I believe SOME people keep defending Scn and the tech out of simple behavioural training. They just react mentally without thinking. We expose the truth, they "defend from attack" automatically because it is so trained in. Then they have to rationalize the irrational thing they said or did and it just gets worse. It's exactly like someone who was hypnotised who must carry out the post-hynotic command. So I think in many cases it is best for all to just ride it out and let some of those awkward Scn moments pass and not react because reacting to the little things can just keep them in the Scn reactive loop. Otherwise, a lot of the reactions will disappear on their own.

    Some of us ex's do it sometimes too, you know.

    Interested in your feedback. Thanks.
  11. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Essentially, I agree with most everything you've written.

    I'm really not concerned about someone being unable to stop calling himself or herself a Scientologist.

    It's just that, since its inception, Scientology has been presenting itself as something it's not. Now there are refugees from Scientology insisting that they are still Scientologists and presenting Scientology as something it's not, with the distasteful parts of Scientology presented as not really being Scientology, etc. (And there are many wordings used, such as "tech" being used for the real Scientology, etc.) This adds to the confusion, particularly for someone still recovering from Scientology.

    Of course, that's to be expected, and it's been that way for a long time.

  12. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    :yes: :goodposting:

    Thanks, Veda. I see your point.
  13. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    essential to recovery............and essential to keeping a handle on how current events are evolving, i.e. keeping up with what Debbie started and not being left behind?
  14. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    So how does this work? The sheep are putting these people "up there"....looking for the next great hope? Those poor arrogant ex-SO- but-not-ex-scientology (and the ones who are ex scientologist) movers and shakers. Life is tough for arrogant ex SO who are full of themselves.
  15. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I had a very interesting example of this recently. Naughty me, I deliberately pushed that giant red button to see if the result would be modified by years of study of other aspects of spirituality, and sadly the resulting knee jerk answer and lecture could have come from the most dedicated scientologist. I let it ride though, but I was very saddened in this case.
  16. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    Agreeing to disagree.. Mr.Rinder has done nothing yet that can't be seen as 'PR Damage Control', working for the Official Church of Scientology (or Hubbard).. Recall Hubbard's 'Non Existence formula'.. You ask around what's needed an wanted.. A CofS PR dude does that, and all the other Hubbard crap!

    And the only possible PR remedy for the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology is to stage a perfectly believeable and entertaining Revolution!

    Which won't stop me calling it the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology anyway!

  17. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    I never had any interaction with Mike Rinder personally when I was in the Sea Org. We orbited in much different spheres and he was way higher on the food chain than I was. The only exposure I actually had to him was when he spoke at Int Events from the Int PRO post he had when he wasn't running OSA. I hated him as a speaker. Listening to him was the audio version of watching paint dry.

    That being said, from what I know, everyone who worked for him or knew him personally really liked him.

    I knew someone who was OSA Int staff who raved about what a great CO (Commanding Officer) he was. The staff had tremendous loyalty to him. He was actually known as the only person who could successfully do the org's FP (financial plan). No mean feat, as anyone whose ever been on staff knows.

    Stacy Brooks told me after she got out how much she loved Mike and how she grieved for him still being in.

    There are some other posters I know on this board who used to be friends with him and really liked him.

    He was known to be dependable and loyal.

    Sadly and ironically, that's probably why he was given the job of running OSA to begin with. He was a good guy who could be trusted.

    If there was ever a place where no good deed goes unpunished, it's the Sea Org.
  18. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow, I love this respectful discussing and arguing. :yes: I am learning so much.

    Thank you, people. Thank you. This is how is should be done. :happydance:

    Keep going. :drama:
  19. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    Marty and Mike came late on the chain here I believe. They were involved in legal matters and handling the flap presumably after Lisa's death.

    There was posted to the net at the time entries from Lisa's diaries or notebooks. Probably from the court case. In it you can see her introverting because of Benetta Slaughters ethics handlings. Can't find those now, but an interesting bit of data here.
  20. johnAnchovie

    johnAnchovie Still raging

    Christ life was a lot simpler when it was all either black or white.

    I am to some degree persuaded that Mike is transitioning out and away from the narrow cultic thought processes and this is the most frank interview yet. Good on Tony Ortega for a penetrating and revealing interview.

    There is little chance of Mike Rinder dumping his blind faith in all things Hubbard; he grew up immersed and enmeshed in the pseudo-philosophy after all. but he is not quite as glib as he used to be.

    He is free to say what he wants of course, and as long as he is given airtime he will. The interview is useful in that I feel that it just might make some of the more trenchant indies think a little bit. I don't know why I should give a shit about them but I do.

    Where I feel that Mike is prevaricating is on the Lisa McPherson story. He is in effect saying 'I was just following orders'. I am sorry, all us Sea Org people and indeed Class V Org staff, have done shitty things in the line of duty. But very few of us have been even casually involved in the cover up of a murder.

    This is where Mike and Marty don't wash with me. They were both the top level execs from as far back as I remember in my Sea Org career (1985 to 2006) and at no point in that interval of 22 years did they call foul.

    In 1994 a young woman died in appalling conditions while held prisoner in the ne plus ultra of Scientology Churches in Clear Water Florida: Flag, The Mecca of Technical Perfection. Nobody was indited for her death, a death that happened 14 days after she had been removed from a proper hospital and placed back under the care of The Church of Scientology under the direction of one David Miscavige, Chairman of The Board CSI.

    Do not forget: Mike Rinder and Marty Rathburn were directly involved in the expediting of the plans to ship out witnesses and hard written evidence to places where they simply could not be at risk of subpoena. Then even worse, if that is possible, they are directly implicated in the blackmailing of a medical doctor and they are to this day intimated in the corruption of police and other state officials in the main through bribery.

    These are crimes that I cannot countenance. While they are, let us be careful here, imputed in their direct involvement more than they are accused of them (they would be in prison at this writing otherwise) these two figureheads of the Independent Scientology Movement remain in my mind eternally tarnished by association.

    Somebody had to direct, plan and execute the Lisa McPherson cover up. These two men were at the top of the Scientology criminal empire, just under Miscavige. Do the math as the saying goes.

    These are crimes that erode the civil law basis of western society. You want to know what it is like living in a society where trust in the institutions of state and law have collapsed? Go to Kazakhstan for a bit, try and open a shop in Romania, try and publish a Village Voice in Moscow.

    These are disgusting and shocking crimes and they were carried out knowingly and with breathtaking arrogance in order to protect the psychopathic cult leader David Miscavige and that sociopath criminal, L. Ron Hubbard.

    We might get all excited about the M and M show and the little bits of insights they are carefully drip feeding to the slavish information hungry hoards. but let us not lose sight of the nasty, deplorable and dirty underhand acts and villainous perversions of justice and decency these men were carrying out as a regular part of their daily work routine.

    Mike Rinder and his dear friend, Marty Rathburn, still have a very long way to go.