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VV: Scientology - Mike Rinder on "The Hole," Indoctrination, Confessions, ...

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by Mike Laws, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. StickbyMe

    StickbyMe Patron with Honors

    A possible scenario occurred to me... Just a hypothetical here:

    We've got a lot of people defecting all of a sudden. What if DM were the next to defect? What if he gets out, claims that the whole thing got invaded by SPs, and starts a new sub-cult in the Freezone, free from the name and track record of the Church of Scientology? He might even be able to change the mythology to keep LRH out of it all together...
  2. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

  3. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller


    I see the crims over at the M&M Show have elaborated on the Lisa McPherson tragedy. Yep, you guessed it, its *all* David Miscagive's fault, and, not only that, the tech works, Clear exists as a verifiable state thanks to the wonderous ability of none other than L Ron Hubbard, and Marty can help you realise it . . . yadda yadda yadda. Its a digusting promotion of Scientology tech leveraged off the death of an innocent.

    What's missing from this slick attempt at diversion, obfuscation, and L Ron Hubbard turd polishing are the nuts and bolts of how Rathbun and Rinder managed to secure a not guilty verdict in the criminal case. Where are the details on how the unfortunate coroner was handled, what other witness tampering was carried out, which police offers were paid off, which Scientologists were hidden from the view of authorities, what are the details of the intel capers carried out on the court officials, what evidence was destroyed, altered and manufactured? The list of what is *not* being provided goes on. And, when they feel capable of taking responsibility for their actions in the death of Lisa, how about they do the same in relation to Robert Vaughn Young, Bob Minton, Shawn Lonsdale, Dennis Erlich, Arnaldo Lerma and all the other people they have fucked over.
  4. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    That is precisely what is occurring with scientology as it does with every other aspect of human society. All the destructive movements humans have unleashed are the result of of exactly such mass assimilated & promulgated ideals. A large enough collection of flawed zealous idealists capable of cooperating towards a collective goal requires no supervillains in order to create a hell on earth for their fellows.

    Hubbard recognized the phenomena in others and coined a term for it even though he never acknowledge his own similar failings: 'groupthink'.

    Welcome to the wonderful world of human culture.

    Mark A. Baker
  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    I'm sure that won't bother Sam Clemens. :)

    Mark A. Baker
  6. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Which makes my point.

    Mark A. Baker
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Your contempt for the human race is noted. It seems to be a recurring theme in your, and Hubbard's, writings. Go ahead and call the humans "wogs" and "Homo Saps." You know you want to. Go ahead. You'll feel better.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  8. johnAnchovie

    johnAnchovie Still raging

    Actually, it was far from an original idea, Mark, I picked one author from my studies: this fellow:

    Not to mention a certain Karl Jung...

    The missing Ron mag, my dear friend is called 'Ron The Plagiarizer'

    I hope enjoy Durkheim et al. Makes for very good and lucid reading.
  9. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    It is not clear that such was 'inevitable'. Even with the bad policies in place a different culture would have emphasized different aspects of policy, conceivably resulting in a far less abusive general culture. Of course, any such speculation flies in the face of what has actually occurred.

    The culture that was promoted by hubbard personally and which did ultimately come to dominate the entire church is the destructive abusive cult which we all know and love.

    It's not there just because hubbard wrote bad policies. Nor is it simply the result of because "hubbard said" or that his personal opinions were often expressed in a reactionary fashion. Human cultures are complex. They draw from their environments and from the individual backgrounds of their members.

    Members not only have their own cultural backgrounds which are contributed to the group, they also have individual motivations for themselves, a desire to conform to what they believe is expected of them by others in the group, and the wish to be accepted and even admired for the roles they play within the group. The culture which has grown up around the church is no different to other cultural groups in this. Clearly individuals vary in the degree to which they may affect others in the group and the effects they produce accordingly.

    Hubbard was the 'Founder & Source' certainly of the written guides by which the church is justified as well as the original arbiter of all which the Sea Org sought to impose throughout the church. However he has been dead for twenty five years. Others have also contributed to the development of church culture since its beginnings. Obviously Rathbun & Miscavige have both had significant influence on the development of the culture of the church, especially the latter individual.

    However, John McMaster, Alan Walter, & David Mayo have also had significant impacts on others in the times in which they were involved with the church. Many have remarked how these latter figures were very significant figures in inspiring & motivating others in their pursuit of scientology at the times when these figures were active in the church. Nor are they alone. Many other individuals have also helped to shape the culture of the church since its inception.

    Throughout its history and up to today it has not been all about hubbard, not even all of the bad. It's easier for some to focus on the abuses of hubbard, and certainly he was the principal origin of much of the worst. Others, however, have made original contributions to that too. But it is clear that hubbard was the original 'source' of much, though not all, of the most egregious abuse which has been characteristic of the church. And even more clear that it is the culture which has been created within the church ultimately which matters most in terms of continuing the propagation of the church's abuses.

    Mark A. Baker
  10. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Absolutely. The idea was well known in antiquity also. I did not seek to imply that the idea was original to hubbard, merely that he clearly recognized the phenomenon himself and coined a term for it.

    Mark A. Baker
  11. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Not at all. Unlike yourself I do not care to use racist invective to make my points.

    Mark A. Baker
  12. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    The point is it never actually was. Most just prefer to couch it in such terms because it is easier than recognizing & acknowledging the full extent of the complexity.

    Mark A. Baker
  13. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Allow me to punctuate that for you...

  14. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron


    Jeez what are ya? Some sort of inverted evil transcriptionist? :biggrin:

    You keen to join the "Society for the Protection of the Apostrophe"? We meet every second Tuesday of each month. :wink2:
  15. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Oh, I already received an Honorary Doctorate from them.

    I think it was for this;

    "Scientology: it not what you think it is, it's what you think, it is!"

    Oh wait... that was from the Society for the Protection of the Comma.
  16. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    Well I posted on Marty's blog on this. Leaving out this URL and being low key. Sort of validating their posts which I consider valid.

    Wasn't allowed!!!!

    My take is that Mike and or Marty was involved in missing items from Lisa's apartment.

    Marty is STUPID to not allow my post.

    So I comment here.
  17. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Re: Ortega and Rinder

    No, BB. He was DISHONEST in not allowing your post, but given his thoroughly disreputable past he is 'smart' not to allow others to bring up his very real culpability and lack of integrity in his public forum.

    Of course for those who readily see past his attempts to whitewash himself, lrh, and his peculiar & polemical view of history, his efforts to fashion a reputation for integrity are both fictional & pointless.

    Mark A. Baker
  18. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I object!

    Our brothers in the "Semi Colon Liberation Front", and our other brothers in the "Colon Liberation front for purity of Colons" also object!

    We are deeply affronted that we have been arbitrarily assigned to the vague out data series generality of "Evil Transcriptionists".

    We do have sympathy and solidarity with our "Comma" brethren.

    We are calling a general strike of all grammar entities.

    We are currently negotiating with the " Full Stop Conservative Grammar Asociation" . This successfull, our class enemy "Words" will be powerless and will have to crawl to negotiation.
  19. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    heh heh. He said Colon.


  20. Helena Handbasket

    Helena Handbasket Gold Meritorious Patron

    That why I prefer to use the non-racist term "earthworm" (someone who thinks he's just a body, a product of the Earth). Yes, it's still a terrible thing to call someone, but better than the w-word.

    Unfortunately, the value of such a word has been reduced by the fact that no one ever uses it other than myself. Like the word "cavige".

    CBR also came up with a replacement word -- "meatball".