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Welcome Jonathan!

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by Karen#1, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I agree, which is the major reason I post under a pseudonym. My ex-Scn life is my ex-Scn life, and my professional career is my professional career, and I'm not interested in mixing the two. When I post my honest opinions about politics and culture on other forums, I do so under pseudonyms as well, and for similar reasons.
  2. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader


    In red . . . I dunno on the "about" . . . I'd say from! It's a rather regular stealth thing he pulls.

    My comment using the word "Fabian" was based on the way I learned the word in the UK when there . . . it referred to the Fabian politicians who were on a stealthy campaign to turn England into a commie socialist state and were destroying "English values" and institutions.

    As regards the point I was making when I wrote this earlier:

    Was not in reference to Jonathan communicating on ESMB . . . but to Carmelo's "style."

    Though, it must be said that as a result of Carmelo's back channel negative communication, Jonathan, as reported here, went weak and withdrew and decided (for a while till restored by Karen) to not communicate on ESMB even under the cover of a nic. Thus it is good to see Jonathan has resumed his position, power and presence to stand tall and say what he has to say. He will be all the better for it . . . nothing is quite as debilitating to a person as to cower and want to stay hidden.

  3. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Thanks. Jonathan himself will tell you he's doing just fine. Carmelo's posted advice for anonymity was not bad advise but regarding all that happened back channel... I think Jonny's over it :) My getting my post deleted probably helped.

    Re: Fabian: Hubbard used that word. I recall having to look it up. You explained it well and your usage was appropriate.

    On the "about"..... I was addressing Karen in that sentence, not Carmelo. But I get your point. Yes, it came from Carmelo.
  4. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Agree. I grew up is USA and chiro was looked at as sort of a way out there weird practice, not legit.
    I was an adult, having lower back problems, could not even stand up straight, was this bent over old woman at like 30 yrs old. A boss suggested I go to his chiro, and I gave him a funny look. I went to my doctor, who offered pills, relaxation and pain. I said no. I was in so much pain, stooped over, even unable to press the clutch to drive my car. My boss sent me to his chiro - and it was a freaking miracle, I was able to walk upright out of his office, AND use the clutch to drive my car. I had to go back every few days, for a week or two, until my muscle memory took hold to hold my spine in proper alignment. And he sold me pillows, one for my office chair, and one for my car - and I still have both, have used them every day since. And he gave me exercises to do, to strenghten my back. And he told me how to sit properly in a chair, LOL - as that was a major source of my problem. LAzy slumped in chair, feet on desk kind of thing. And hunched in the car seat . . . Oh Lord.

    I stopped going for years, after I was fine. Then when I threw my back out, I went back, for same kind of treatment, for a few weeks, then once a week, then once a month, then stopping when fine. Years later I started going in regularly once a month, when I was in martial arts. I thought it was a very good idea to just keep it all in shape.

    I love my chiro - he has the magic touch. And he changed my mind about how I felt about - how I was raised to view - chiropractic therapy. :yes:
  5. jonnyblade

    jonnyblade Patron

    Hi Infinite,

    There are many parallels that can be drawn between chiropractic and scientology. I would say that Chiropractors are EXTREMELY vulnerable to the exploits of Scientology. The majority of chiropractors, from my experience, are very interested in helping people without the use of drugs or surgery. Just Scn's anti-drug agenda alone is enough to build a rapport with many Chiropractors. They also get into CCHR activities very quickly. Some go as so far as to offer their patients a copy of Dianetics when their chiropractic care wasn't effective. The influence of Scn ranges broadly and I could spend many hours typing up scenarios I've seen.

    Chiropractors also feel, in general, that they have been suppressed by the AMA due to their campaign that targeted the abolishment of chiropractic. You can look this up on the web. Therefore, they are very inclined to get indoctrinated with the PTS/SP tech.... Man, i could go on and on and on about this... really.

    Regarding chiropractic, that in itself without Scn is quite a ride. I will extrapolate on that in future posts when I have enough time to do so but just know this for now: There are many many techniques in chiropractic that are unfounded, unproven, filled with pseudoscientific and quasi-religious horse shit that when coupled with Scn, it must feel like a warm glove. Scn allows you to validate anything because in Scn, you really don't need proof of anything! All you need is the subjective finding of 'I'm doing better!' and there you go 'it works!' So, for that type of practitioner, their method of practice is validated by Scn and Scn can also be validated by their method of practice. Following? So, (and I'm skipping around a bit here) if your adjustment didn't work and your patient was unresponsive to your treatment than automatically Scn chiro's believe that they MUST be PTS! It gets pretty sickening.

    There are also excellent techniques within chiropractic that consistently afford patients proven objective evidence, via pre and post x-ray or some other verifiable objective finding, of their progress through care. Much like orthodontics for teeth. It's not a theory, a dogma or a philosophy... its a method that is verified by the teeth becoming aligned. Again, I could go on and on.

    Hope this answers your question for now. Let me know what you would like me to expound upon and I'll be happy to do so.

  6. Idle Morgue

    Idle Morgue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank God for chiropractors!! I go to them for colds, flu - everything before I go to a medical doctor. I really don't care what technique they use - their wanting to help and w/o drugs or surgery is enough for me to support them 100%.

    Would love to hear the details of the WISE bamboozlement you endured. I have a friend that told me she got bamboozled into WISE because the waxing enthusiasm success stories of other chiros - I made $50,000 per month lies! They were already doing well is what she found out - but somehow twisted her thinking into giving WISE / Hubbard tek the credit. She had lots of money on account and had paid for her bridge on credit cards....just had to be right as she declared bankruptcy!
  7. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Well Idle Morgue,

    I can give you an example of WISE bamboozlement from a patient's point of view.

    I had a dentist I was in good comm with and trusted. She was good. One day I saw some Way to Happiness booklets in her waiting room. We had a chat about it . . . her response was that she was not interest in church and philosophy/religion part of it . . . she "just didn't have the time for it," she said. She was interested in the "management principles" of it as espoused by WISE :duh:

    Oh, Oh . . . I should have changed dentists then and there . . . I'm just too bloody tolerant:ohmy:

    The next visit (6 monthly fang cleaning as I have a couple of implant teeth) I get there early as the first appointment of the day, and collide with her an her staff going over stats! Graphs and all! . . . umm we ex staffers know what that is :nervous:

    Anyway, service at the dentist begins to decline . . .

    Three things noticed:
    a) dentist begins to defer more work to the assistant instead of doing it her self . . . I even wrote a letter to her telling her I was paying for her to treat me not her assistant . . . I tell ya the truth! :yes:

    b) the practice then developed Scn money grabbing regging pressure and demanding money before service . . . I said, the first time this was done . . . and it was rudely done by the person in accounts . . . you gotta be joking! I've been coming here for years and I always pay on my way out the door when we know what has been done: not by guess before it is done.

    I ended up saying it's my way or no way!

    c) service begins to get dishonest and sloppy . . . and this then demonstrated to me finally that the money flow was more important than the service to the patient . . . and that was the last time she saw me.

    In other words . . . WISE has been all over the various healthcare practices community selling their "management tech" and screwing up patient delivery quality in some cases.

    Personal observation on that one. I have a Doctor friend who has had them in contact . . . he views their "Purification Program" as "good."

    We did not get into comm on that issue . . . and he can't screw me up as much as the bloody dentist can and DID! Once the bitch was in my mouth it was to bloody late. My Doc I can always say, "Nah" . . . and stay on good terms.

  8. The chiropractors I knew around Clearwater were heavily into conspiracy theories.

    One tried to convince me about the black helicopters and another that FEMA and the UN were about to start rounding us up and putting us in camps.

    (come to think of it, I never saw that person again?)

    I considered the ones I knew here that were Scientologists to be a bit kookie.

    But I never made any bones about it.

    I told my chiropractor that it hurt when I raised my arm. He said "Then don't raise your arm."

    Later he once told me to take off all my clothes and go over to the window and stick out my tongue.

    I asked him "Will this help with my pain?"

    He said "No, I'm just mad at my neighbor."

    And another chiropractor put his hand on my wallet and said, "Cough!"

    I have to say I am a bit prejudiced against chiropractors for two reasons: I suffered a lot and didn't really get any relief from them (I saw about four different ones over a twenty year period)

    Secondly, I did not like that they all had the same simple answer for all ailments--chiropratic alignments and certain cure-all vitamins or minerals.

    And those seemed to change with each new multi-level marketing product that made the rounds.

    They really didn't seem to me to know what they were doing.

    I didn't finally get any relief until I went to an orthopedic neurologist.

    I suffered for years and all it took was one steroid shot to take away the pain.

    Now, of course, that is a drug, but after that I didn't have to calculate every movement I made as to how much it was going to hurt me to move.

    So I am a not a big fan of the profession.

    However, I am glad you are here because of who you are and not because of what you do.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  9. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, these are scno/co$ practices - and if I found out any medical prof was a part of scno/co$ - in any way - I would walk out and find another one. I hate too say it, but I have dealt with scno businesses before, and they are ALL like that. I always feel I have been ripped off. Great for future business, huh.

    Holy cow, someone should warn all possible businesses thinking of hooking onto anything scno/co$, that it will ruin their reputation - word of mouth is very powerful
  10. ethercat

    ethercat Cat in flight

    Welcome, Jonathan.

    Not to derail, but that is correct. Think about it. You have to log in to see the members areas. Google doesn't have a login. :)
  11. jonnyblade

    jonnyblade Patron

    Hey Jacques,

    "And another chiropractor put his hand on my wallet and said, "Cough!"" - yes, there are many like that! Especially those who have been trained by WISE groups. The WISE group I was with taught every chiropractor (hundreds, if not over a thousand of them) to sell patients 'corrective care plans' whether you did corrective care or not!

    I'm probably more in alignment with your feelings re the chiropractic profession than you might imagine. There are proven methods and techniques and there aren't. One of the problems with 'chiropractic' is that there is no standard measurable approach that is agreed upon within the profession. The profession can't even agree if the subluxation actually exists or not much less the correction of one! There's a TON of constant infighting. Here's a little snippit from a recent FB debate that happened between myself and someone who is the new face of the cultish aspect of chiropractic:

    "...just because one doesn't hop on to your bandwagon unquestioningly doesn't mean they are confused. That sounds more to me like the requirements for a cult. You might need to re-read my posts to realize that I didn't deny chiropractic philosophy and I also gave no mention of treating conditions. Your response is typical of those who feel challenged. Here are some undeniable facts for you: The body is a time dependent organism. It changes by certain things, applied at a certain rate, over a certain period of time. (Verifiable by any competent doctor, layperson, and my five year-old nephew.) It is well documented that reflexive muscles govern the position of spinal bones. When an adjustment is delivered, immediately, a dynamic stretch reflex is initiated. This pulls the bone back into the position prior to your adjustment, and within a minute's time, it also becomes measurably worse. Sure the patient feels better, subjectively, due to the fact that fresh blood flow, nutrients and oxygen are now taking the place of metabolic waste products that once caused swelling and / or pain. This DOES NOT mean that they are any more 'well adjusted' or 'aligned' than before your adjustment. I do not base what I do on dogma, theory, philosophy, conjecture or groupthink. I base it on verifiable objective evidence. You'll have to excuse my competency. So, that brings us to you and your message, "every man, woman and child on the planet checked for vertebral subluxation and adjusted, when necessary, from birth." I'm all for that. Certainly, you are prepared to prove that you and the doctors you mentor are delivering on your promise of removing these subluxations, correct? Certainly, you are willing and able to stand up to scrutiny and criticism, especially from those (me) who would be willing to help you with your message, correct? Or will this be a case of "Click the unfriend button" and "You will be replaced" as you mentioned to XXXXX above?"

    Jacques, the spine has a range of what would be considered to be 'biomechanically correct', just like teeth. They can only go so far off to the side, back or front for someone to reason that one or more are not straight. When 2 vertebrae come together they form a foramen, fancy word for a hole, that the nerves exit from. In order to increase that nerve flow, which is the major premise of what most consider to be the goal of chiropractic, the spine must not have the bones out of alignment, must not have disc degeneration, muscle spasms, etc. So, you either use a technique that is proven with scientific evidence to fix these matters or you don't. It's the difference between "your needle is floating!" and "look at the change that we were able to make on your pre and post x-ray."

  12. SpecialFrog

    SpecialFrog Silver Meritorious Patron

    That's what they want you to think. :)
  13. jonnyblade

    jonnyblade Patron

    Yes! ...and being a Scientologist they WANT YOU TO MAKE MORE FUCKING MONEY to pay for your Bridge and auditing. They don't care how you do it... i.e., teaching chiropractors to sell corrective care plans when they don't even offer a method of corrective care! [see my post to Jacques for more on that]. You pay them (WISE) to learn business skills and then they hound you for that money to go right back to them (Scn)... twisted.
  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I smiled at that, but didn't click the like button in case someone thought I agreed with the idea that they probably do have some back door in.


    Now, having written that, I wonder if they do? Obviously they don't promote it, but they also don't promote that they have saved every single Google search by anyone since Google's inception. Since their mission involves making available all the world's information (or something like that), I wouldn't put it past them to have all kinds of databases squirrelled away that are currently inaccessible to the plebs but in the future who knows?


  15. jonnyblade

    jonnyblade Patron

    Yes, and I have learned about a dentist who was doing $1mil / yr. in practice WITHOUT WISE. She then joined a WISE group and bankrupted her practice from stupid ass donations to the Super Power building and her bridge. Funny thing is, I learned about this from a person who I had met in this WISE group as we were cheerfully nattering about all things Scn, and he swore he was going to get his money that he had on account at the Orange County Org back... about $40,000.00. Next thing you know, the owner of the WISE group got into his head and then he's at Flag. :no:
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    you state the exact reasons why I adopted firm policy to not work for or do business with a scientologist.
  17. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

  18. This is actually good to know.

    At some point they are going to have to develop some sort of practice standards.

    How varied are the schools which train chiropractors and who gives them their certification?

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  19. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Hubby and I go to a chiropractic clinic run by a husband and wife who went to chiropractic school together. She's a humdrum practitioner, and he's effing brilliant -- in terms of the varying results they get on me!

    The guy is one of those "gotta learn everything possible about everything" kind of people. He's just passionate for chiropractic, and he's constantly studying and going to new seminars. He never does anything goofy -- just works on alignment and strengthening. He's very specific about his methods. And he tests and checks in constantly -- how is that? Better with that? Worse with that? He's like a little chiropractic scientist, testing, testing, testing.

    One of his adjustments is worth 10 of hers.

    And nothing against her -- I like them both personally.

    Some people are just good at what they do and love what they do. Others aren't and don't. It makes a big, big difference in everything from money management to healthcare to cooking.

  20. Boojuum

    Boojuum Silver Meritorious Patron

    Hi there

    Welcome to the world completely outside of Scientology!

    I've found a great deal of help from reading the posts on ESMB. The members are ... diverse and sorting out their experience each on different levels. Some angry, some not, some curious and sometimes it's nice to see where so and so ended up. The Scientology experience wasn't all bad for me but there was a ton of bad in it, deceptively so.

    I love reading the experiences of others who were involved. It's extremely therapeutic.

    The thing about ESMB is that there are no real obligations, no 10% of income, no mandatory meetings, no all hands, and very few rules. You don't have to read another post. We won't harass you, we won't write you, we might respect you, we might not, we might ridicule you, we'll challenge your ideas but you don't have to stay. We're not your new cult.

    Enjoy the ride.:happydance: