ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



What got you in? What made you stay?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Bea Kiddo, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. Krysti

    Krysti Patron with Honors

    Do you have a link to Alan's site by any chance?

    How strange. This whole thing. What I have considered mental illness, is the state of mind that is considered winning in scientology.

    When I was manic, it felt great. When I came out of it though, I felt embarrassed. I felt like I had been out of control. Like I had been drunk. I would wake up with a sick feeling in my stomach trying to remember if I did anything really stupid.

    Being manic didn't seem like me. Well, in the moment it did, but afterwards, it didn't seem like it was me. And I did do stupid things sometimes.

    Anyway... Does it not worry people, who want to achieve that state, that you may be achieving a state of mind that is possibly one step away from what is considered insanity?

    I ask that because of my own situation. Being manic was great.... until I toppled over the edge into a delusional state. Don't get me wrong, that felt great also. But, also made it impossible to work. And, others around me didn't find it nearly as fun as I did. :ohmy: I definitely wouldn't be where I am today if I had remained in that state. On the other hand, I don't think I'd be where I am today if I'd never been manic. :)

    Krysti
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2007
  2. nw2394

    nw2394 Silver Meritorious Patron

  3. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    There is a difference between enlightenment and delusion. But as was pointed out in 8-8008 (the book) "a stark raving mad thetan was better off than homo spaiens..."

    Looks like some things have been shifted on Alans site...here is one link: http://www.knowledgism.com/main/ascend.asp
     
  4. gomorrhan

    gomorrhan Gold Meritorious Patron

    Kristi, you ask a tricky question. Yes, I think there is a similarity. No, I don't think they're the same. The difference, in my opinion, is one of causality. When you're in such a state as a result of something that you understand, that's different than when it occurs unexpectedly, without apparent cause, and without any sort of willing or deliberation on your part.

    In my family, I have a cousin and an uncle who were severly manic, requiring hospitalization. I witnessed my cousin during one of these episodes, and his affect (perceptible emotion) was definitely similar to people who'd experienced an ascension or what some scientologists will call exteriorization. However, his thought process was different. He was afraid of the state, and didn't have any understanding of what was happening. He was flat terrified, couldn't sleep, extremely emotional and quite fixated on what was happening to him.

    Something to keep in mind is that there are many different things that are dubbed exteriorization in scientology, whether officially so or just in the "culture". Some have a sense of vertigo, and this is taken to be exteriorization by the untrained auditor, and seen as a reason to STOP session, big win (tm), etc. It's actually a somatic, something turned on by the process, and the process should be continued until the somatic stops, otherwise the person could get stuck in it for a while (or in theory, for a very, very long while). Others experience a sense of disconnection from their body's sensations, which is a form of numbness, and also is not the same thing as "exteriorization". One goal of scientology was recognized as developing Exteriorization with Full Perception. This means what it says. A person who could locate anywhere in any universe (or at least completely separate from the body), and have full perception of the area around them (or anywhere), locate themselves anywhere, etc. I, personally, don't believe this is possible, but it was an expressed and logical outgrowth of the belief that identification with the body was a form of prison conditioned on an immortal spiritual being.

    I have had "ascendent" phenomena in my life, twice. Once when I was a child, and once when I was about 17. In neither case was I at all afraid, and there was no collapse into depression or anxiety afterwards. As a child, it happened frequently, and was so persistent that I lump it all together as "once", but it was really about a hundred or so discrete periods, all centering around "sport", either tennis, badminton, or soccer. I would achieve a "zen focus" on the court, or on the field, and be "transported", and lose track of time, people's names, but not "the ball", or "the game". During these periods witnesses reported extraordinary feats of athleticism, and it would carry over into my "normal life" for days or weeks at a time. The loss of track of time wasn't a bad thing: I didn't forget appointments, or anything, but I simply didn't feel bound to the period of time, and felt I was accomplishing much more during that "time" than otherwise I would, and it was accompanied by huge outputs or inputs, in terms of reading, writing, exercise, and everything else I was doing.

    Some will attribute this to "runner's high", but I will categorically state that while it is similar, it is qualitatively different. I've run 10k runs a lot during my military days, and that was blissful, but this was really a totally different type of experience: bliss was built into it, but not it's full scope.

    The next time I experienced this (and it had been sorely missed), it was connected to psychedelic drug use, but not something which regularly occurred through use of psychedelics. It didn't happen on my first use, and it never happened again despite numerous attempts to repeat "the experiment". The psychedelic in question was MDMA, in high quantity, combined with psychedelic mushrooms, opium, hashish, marijuana, amphetamines, LSD and a unique cultural situation. I was, in short, at a Grateful Dead show in 1987, during the "Touch of Grey" tour. One of their largest shows during this tour was in upstate New York. After the show, I was feeling really great due to the dancing and music and the group of people I'd gone with (lifelong friends the Church tried to get me to disconnect from). We were all a little stoned, but the stronger drugs hadn't been dropped yet. We went to a local state park, where about thirty thousand other "heads" were camping, found a spot, did our drugs, and by about one AM, were "out of our heads". It is expected that taking such drugs will have a long effect, perhaps 24 hours, maybe even several days. My "high" stopped after about 36 hours, but the experience that was triggered did not, and lasted about four months, continuing to get more and more intense, with expanding effects throughout my life. I was in early college, and had my first exposure to calculus during this period, which I think amplified this experience. Something about the concept of "taking a derivative" seemed to mirror the experience I was having. I was starting to feel more and more like I was "the derivative" of who I'd been, previously. Rather than growing linearly, or exploding, or expanding, I simply felt that I was more purely me, less connected to emotions that would normally subsume me, etc. I did NOT stop having emotions. I also experienced paranormal senses, during this time, including precognition witnessed by several people. In one incident, I was sitting in my dorm room with my room mate, Chris Thatcher, and I suddenly had the feeling that my girlfriend was "there". I said "the phone is about to ring". About a second or so later, the phone rang in the hall. My room mate jumped up to get it, as he was expecting a call (I hadn't been). I shouted after him "don't bother, it's for me, it's Nitza, and she needs us to pick her up downtown". He picked up the phone, got very quiet, and then came back to the room with a spooked look on his face "it's Nitza", he said, "she's downtown at the bus stop, says she came to surprise you, and she wants us to pick her up. How did you know that?" I know this is not something others will believe on its face, and I don't blame them. Some will.

    Even in that situation, though, I wouldn't say I was "exterior", because I was still very much in the present, perceiving with my normal bodily senses, but having extraordinary senses, also. I think Alan's term, Ascension, is closer to the truth of what happened with me in all these similar situations. Oh: to wrap that up, this experience ended when I started to take drugs and drink again at school at parties, which had the unfortunate additional effect of getting me thrown out of school, again. In that circumstance, while it was mostly very pleasant, I was worried because it had been triggered by drugs, and I wasn't sure which one, and I wasn't sure how long it would last. I slept like a baby though (unlike most manic periods in true manics lives), I didn't have a pervasive sense of fear or paranoia or a crash afterwards, other than simply "return to normal". I didn't feel like I had control of it, unlike when I was a kid, and I could induce it by simply "climbing trees" (for hours) or playing tennis or soccer or ping-pong, or riding my bike.

    I think the difference is simply one of causality. I had slight cause, in that I knew it was induced by drugs, the second time, even though I didn't induce it strictly through mental focus. Where such events are triggered by the environment, and you have no control, I understand it can be scary, unwelcome, and baffling. For me, this was not the case. During my childhood, my family called me, jokingly, "Keevine, the Mystic", and after Star Wars, "Obi Wan". Friends realized that I was not affected by life, much, adversely, I just kind of floated through it excelling wherever I put my attention. I know that sounds arrogant, but it was true. Two things "brought me down" from this at around age twelve. First, I was struck in the back during a fistfight by another kid with a baseball bat, and lost consciousness (although I apparently kept fighting, and walked away with my family [it was at a kids baseball league picnic]), and about the same time was powerfully triggered by puberty. Puberty completely introverted me, and I experienced it then like a form of emotional/intellectual prison, and couldn't "get out" anymore. My senses were completely controlled by female attributes, I was completely distracted, and I felt a tragic loss of what I would now call "ARC" with myself: I felt betrayed that I was thinking like this, not in control of myself, etc. To be completely honest, sex, now, provides temporary release from this, although I don't feel the powerful distraction the way I did from 12-20: it's definitely still there.

    Hopefully this gives some insight. I know this isn't "exterior with full perception", but I think it was Ascension. When I described this to an auditor from FLAG, one time, she showed me the meter dial, and I had floating TA, which lasted a few weeks (rehabbed the experience), and she programmed me for Clear Certainty Rundown, and provided me with references on Past Life Clear, Natural Clear, etc.

    Makes me want to go play tennis. Wouldn't that be nice?
     
  5. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Historically, the reaction to an 'ascension experience' is not understanding, fear and even sometimes sheer terror, although there are other flavors.

    'Exteriorization' as used in Scientology tends to mean literally anything from a mild buzz to the 'Grand Tour' spiritual journey through the galaxies.

    I suspect that 'exteriorization' even in Scientology was intended to correspond to an 'out of body experience' as in 'be three feet behind your head', but, the failure of The Tech to produce such results resulted in the watering down of the concept (as with 'Clear' and 'OT') until success could be claimed.

    An Ascension Experience, on the other hand, might include 'exteriorization' in the 'non-Scientological' sense, or also any number of religious experiences.

    Zinj
     
  6. Krysti

    Krysti Patron with Honors

    Thanks for the links, nw and Div.

    Very interesting...

    I can definitely relate to what Alan is talking about. It sounds exactly like my manic states. I really felt I was on a different level than everyone around me. Like there were mentally different planes and I was on a higher plane.

    I was also extremely in-tune to everyone else. It was like I could see right through people and knew what they were thinking and how they were feeling. I could pick up on facial expressions like never before. I was just so AWARE. Weird.

    When I became delusional, I was still very AWARE. It was like I just went to the next level or the next higher plane. I felt telepathic. Unfortunately, either I wasn't or I had the timing all wrong!

    When I came to the realization I had become delusional and got a prescription for psyche meds, I had to make myself take them. I felt like Phoebe Cates in Drop Dead Fred (take the pills and kill my best friend or...). I had to make a choice. I could either live on this enlightened level and experience all the joy that came with it. Or, I could take the meds which would bring me back down to the level others were on and function in this society. I chose to function on the same level as others.

    So, what does all this mean? It sounds like Alan is saying that state can be achieved and you can learn to function well in it. Well, sign me up! :D

    You suckers are struggling to get to this state and all I have to do is quit taking my meds! :p

    Seriously though, this is all very mind boggling...

    Krysti
     
  7. gomorrhan

    gomorrhan Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, Zinj. I'm aware that many people experience terror at "exteriorization". This, in scientology, is called "out/int". It has to do, in their theory, with the terror of loss of body associated with past deaths.

    I never had that experience, although I did experience vertigo and the auditor thought it was me trying to hold onto my body. Fucking idiot.
     
  8. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Actually, I was talking about 'revelation' or 'ascension esperience' or any other 'religious' enlightenment and *not* specifically about what passes for 'exteriorization' among Scientologists. That could be anything as mundane as a 'spacey feeling' or waking up on Jupiter (supposedly.)

    The only thing about 'exteriorization' that's 'standard' in scientology is that you must have had what you can call one in order to be taken seriously.

    Zinj
     
  9. gomorrhan

    gomorrhan Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yep, that's pretty much what I said. Did you think I said something else?
     
  10. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader


    I do remember it was addressing stripping a person of "winning" valences that did things that followed the Way to Happiness, and stripping false data of actions against The Way to Happiness.

    I did not C/S many of them, and I think I only audited one of them. Hmmm.... Interesting...
     
  11. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Lionheart - I hope you didnt take any offense to my jab snide comment. It was not at all intended to offend you.

    For whatever reason, I just never took any affection towards HRD. On any flow. Never really hit me.

    I guess the book TWTH just was garbage to me. Common sense stuff and why did someone have to write a book about it? Seemed silly to me.

    Then making a RD about it.

    I dont know.

    I am rejecting the material for some reason.

    Sorry.:unsure:
     
  12. gomorrhan

    gomorrhan Gold Meritorious Patron

    I've heard various people talk about the "style" of the Happiness Rundown being more comfortable method of handling o/w of any kind, whether you are referring to a particular precept from TWTH, or if you're a Christian who bought the Ten Commandments. Whatever your moral code, you need to run it out, such that you do things true to yourself, rather than because you are scripted. But what I hear most wasn't even the RD, it was the STYLE: you're not an interrogator. I'd like to hear people talk about the differences in TRs which have been mentioned. Since the comm cycle is the fundamental process, the TRs, if they are altered in application, would be very significant, and I'd be interested to hear these differences (I'll bet they parallel Mayo and Gerbode's approach to Communication Exercises and handling "misdeeds").
     
  13. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think it was Div6 who introduced "exteriorisation" as an explanation for the feelings being discussed. Just for clarification, the experience I described and failed to describe as regards the HRD was not "exteriorisation" as described by any of the Scientology definitions.

    Mystical enlightenment or Bliss would be a better description. Ron's "exteriorisation" idea was a mechanical universe phenomena as was most of his OT ideas and goals. It bears no resemblance to what happened to "me" on the HRD.

    I tried fitting the experience into the exteriorisation pigeon-hole afterwards, to try to understand what had happened, while I was still a good little scientologist. But it didn't fit!

    Reading other people's accounts of Bliss, Cosmic Consciousness, Enlightenment, Mystical Union, better describe my indescribable experience.

    Poetry sometimes gets close, because in some mystical way, poetry expresses more than is in the poem's words.

    "There was nothing left between the nameless and the name. Love itself was gone." Leonard Cohen.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2007
  14. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Bea, I could never possibly take offence over anything you say. Your experience of Scn was largely an outcome of the crazy things earlier Scns like me did. How could I take offence over my own outcomes?

    So even if you tried, you couldn't offend me! :wink2:

    As far as I'm concerned you have paid your dues and have the licence to behave however you want to over the subject of Scn.

    My account was deliberately emotional to try to convey how it felt back then. I have written a novel about this sort of thing. Maybe one day it will be published.

    I agree the WTH booklet is not good. It is overwritten and obvious, although, of course, not particularly obvious to scientologists who were all trained to misbehave rather badly towards others. Many CofS execs would think it was theety weety!

    I'm not surprised the RD would only play a very peripharal role in your Scn experience. Because of the nature of what it did, the CofS would have to sideline it as much as possible.
     
  15. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    I can remember PCs originating major O/Ws, sometimes of quite a "shocking" nature with a light, joyful, laugh of release. Somehow the responsibility was so high that the overts were funny! Hard to describe, but it was fantastic! Not one PC of mine on the HRD had any difficulty or comm lag in getting their overts off in session, the action was so blame-free. I can remember watching PCs already have their overts ready on their itsa line before the question was even asked. Some would even originate them on the earlier steps of the precept, only too happy to confess.

    I always felt I had a pretty good style as an auditor before the HRD training. I was never an interrogator and even confessionals went well when I gave them. But the HRD was distinctly different and made auditing even easier to do.

    I'll try to remember more specifics and if I do I'll post them. It was over a quarter of a century ago, the memory cells are commlagging! :melodramatic: :melodramatic:

    I do remember smiling along with the PC on occassion.

    The last few precepts were dynamite. Once you'd got the mundane brushing your teeth kind of stuff out of the way the virtues and behaviour precepts were really exciting to audit and watch the major "evil" valences drop from the PC.

    There were other applications for the HRD postulated by Mayo. I seem to remember him writing how it could be used in cramming or ethics. Personally I thought ethics officers would become redundant! What a fool I was! :melodramatic:

    Imagine cramming an auditor on HCOB "recognition of the Rightness of the Being"? Word clearing, then false data stripping, then O/Ws on the subject. And finally splitting any valences that the auditor had that failed to recognise the rightness of the being.

    Imagine doing that with every auditor, every ethics officer and every registrar! What sort of CofS would that have produced?

    No doubt about it, all these HRD freaks had to be thrown off the Bridge! :roflmao:
     
  16. Alan

    Alan Gold Meritorious Patron

    My goodness LH you were really hopeful! :)

    Had the above been done we would have had multitudes of MIDDLE WAYers! :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:
     
  17. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hey! You been reading my HRD PC folder, Alan?!!!! :omg:

    I was always an idealist and even Scientology didn't thrash that out of me! :D

    Maybe it didn't produce multitudes, but there's one sitting here, without his head! :happydance:
     
  18. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Which head? :)

    I'm often surprised, LH, at how similar our analyses of Scn end up, even though we're coming from entirely different directions.

    Not that 'duplication' of analysis is absolutely necessary for me to appreciate posts, since, some I disagree with can at least be internally consistent, and therefore admirable, even if they're wrong :)

    Zinj

    Zinj
     
  19. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't think we've ever really even exchanged any posts with each other until now! We must just "as-is" each other! :wink2:

    I enjoy alternating between criticism of Scn from within it's own terms and criticising it from outside Scn parameters. Either is possible.

    Similarly I can enthuse about Scn and my experience in it. Or rant about how terrible Scn is. It's all nonsense anyway! :roflmao:

    Yes, I'm the "what head?" case! Not the "what wall?" case.

    Now don't start me off about my lack of head. I warned people about not asking me about my sig line, but they did and I droned on endlessly about "letting go".

    Now if you ask me about where my head has gone, you'll be sorry, I'll go on and on and on and on about it...

    No don't ask! :coolwink: You'll regret it!
     
  20. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    What got me in, Why am I still in.

    I grew up in a family anchored by my mother, a spiritual seeker.

    I did yoga as a child.

    I had read all the available edgar cayce material by 12, and much else also.

    I still have the book about Jung and his Archtypes I received as an xmas gift that year.

    The year I was 14, I did jesus. Spend the whole year in sandals, carrying a bible.

    Then I read that he had journeyed to the "east", so I started reading about zen.

    Early in my 15th year, on a bus, returning from seeing a stage musical, I was meditating. Sitting cross legged, palms up in my lap, watching the noise in my mind and letting go.

    And I did. I let go of my body and identity and found my self zipping along next to the bus, full vision, hearing smells etc, watching the rocks on the side of the road zoom by...totally unconnected with my body. Totally out.

    Then some silly girl in the seat in front of me said "what are you doing?". And slam! Back in.

    Later that year I "discovered" drugs. Had several experience of less pleasant exteriorization with my body nearly gone, once I came back in after exploring the house I was in, to find my head fully submerged in a toilet and body near death.

    At 18 my father announced that he would not be able to help me go to college. As my life was wholely predicated on that being my next step, and that both my parents were well educated, my father having a doctorate and a well paying and prestigious government job, this was an arc break.

    Also the fact that I was pretty much burned out from several years of LSD and other drugs and most all of my friends were now turning to herion, I choose to leave.

    A couple weeks after my 18th birthday, I left home, expecting to never return. I enlisted in the military.

    After I left my parents "found" scientology. At one of Alans missions.

    I didnt stay arc broken for too long. So I heard of scientology too.

    My impression was that it was coercive and restrictive. This would have been the early '70s. I was a bit of a problem for my folks. I was openly antagonistic to scientology and the "church". Funny, that was the kind and gentle days too...

    Not having the social skills to get laid, I spent a lot of time reading. A dianetics book fell out of the bunk above me, I read it as fast as I could. and when I was next near a mission, I started that path.

    30 something years later, the people who first helped my are declared, although I know them to be both truely OT, and not sp.

    The church is dramatizing religion and power and control, (and succumb).

    Why am I still in?

    Primarily access to data and structured methodology. I am not done learning what is there. I can do it on my own terms, regardless of what others think.

    Also, there are good, honest decent people trying to make it work. They deserve support and also the contact with viewpoints that may help them, even if there is danger in those viewpoints to the established thinking/culture, and danger to those holding them.

    The point has been well made to me that in giving any support to the church, even just by being there, I am furthering the harm that occurs from the misapplication and even outright evil.

    I dont agree.

    alex