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What is a right and wrong? Story and Question.

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Mike Laws, Feb 7, 2011.

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  1. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    I am genuinely curious as to an opinion on right and wrong concerning the following situation.

    That I have been labeled as OSA by a few people on this board is well known. While the simple labeling doesn't particularly bother me, that friends are being "assaulted" for remaining friends or not buying such, especially on back channel lines, does. Makes it personal.

    Three people seem to be the public originators of all the rumors.

    Dexter Gelfand was and still is the most vocal, quoting a secret source who can't go public.

    Carmello, on other threads, was man or woman (I don't know this person at all) enough to admit his/her data came straight form the church, an OSA PR/External influence handling person, naming names. Don't know this person, but hope we get to meet some day.

    The third, actually coming after the fact, was I believe, an honest if misinformed emotional mistake. Someone I spoke often to; I backed away from because of things she was saying about other people I liked and respected ... I wasn't going to take sides, was being pulled into the conflict and felt she didn't want to resolve issues. So she apparently thinks I was just milking data and moved on, making me a likely OSA agent. I can and will handle this by simply following time lines that my contact with her was not even during any particularly sensitive periods.

    The vehemence of Dexters ongoing efforts really made me wonder. It has been suggested that Freezoners are prone to tin foil theories; I don't know enough to comment, but as policy refuse to apply or think with generalities.

    Some of Dexters statements had shreds of truth, and there were somewhat accurate details that indicated someone I knew or had personal contact with me.

    With my snow day and time to reminisce and research, I realized who this person was and we had real bad blood between us, this goes back to my days in Scientology, he was a Scientologist and is now a secret freezoner. I considered him a close friend and I gave him some money as an investment in what I later found out was illegal foreign currency trading.

    To give you an idea the contract supposedly allowed him on a monthly basis to take half the profits, but share not in losses. No accountants involved, no certified statements, investments climbing at 5-20% per month, with him taking half, and periodic losses, but him not sharing in the losses. Do the math, incredible for his side.

    Though I was nervous about the setup and execution, what motivated me to back out of the deal was his non scio sibling (I was friends with much of his family) pulling me aside and telling me that I needed to watch my back, get out, this brother was a pathological liar with a long string of consecutive business failures, cons, fake college degrees, criminality and all the rest. Though I still couldn't imagine my friend as a total criminal nor did I as a Scio know what a pathological liar was, I could verify a few of his past misdeeds and wanted out; I was scared. I was happy to be friends, but didn't want to have financial dealings. He didn't want to remain friends without my money.

    I wanted my money out immediately, he got upset, I got upset, he threatened me, I threatened reporting him to the feds, he threatened me professionally and through the COS, that I would be expelled for reporting him, a scientologist in good standing. I consulted an attorney, tried to get them in touch. All profits magically disappeared in trading losses that day (no documentation provided of course), and I was offered my initial investment back with little more. I took it, happy to get out whole. I got docs here.

    This guy made one subsequent attempt to get in touch, saying he wanted to apologize. I asked what he was apologizing for. He said for being arrogant, after a minute or two of deliberation. Didn't quite do it for me, and while we may have had a couple of social contacts, it felt more like he was pumping me for business contacts, and the relationship quickly floundered.

    I had heard through the grape vine that Dallas Org, then CC Dallas I believe, declared him PTS type criminal, or possibly SP declare, because he was getting investment money out of Scio public and apparently loosing it or not generating promised returns or returning funds as promised.

    Other than that I heard his name every year or two being involved in different groups of ex scios. But other than that, I hadn't seriously thought of the guy in probably 5-8 years. Until now.

    I have learned a lot about the power of the internet. A Lexus Nexus search shows that he is being sued for bad investment deals, reading the law suits, it doesn't seem the plaintiffs have figured out his past, much of which was done under slight variations of his name, companies or his new wife. They don't seem to have figured out his scientology involvements. There are blogs up on the internet searching for data on him.

    My question? What do I do?

    Do I tell my side of the whole story here, naming names and all the rest?

    Do I create a private email using "back channels" to discredit the source?

    Do I approach the Plaintiffs suing him and offer information?

    I have no real liability with going public (verified by my attorney) if everything is factual. Including publishing of docs I have.

    Do I just let it all go and turn the other cheek? I don't care to be involved with him again in any form.

    Is his wife complicit in his financial scams, or just an innocent naive patsy in his game as his sibling told me? If I make my data public and he goes to Jail, do I want that responsibility towards his family?

    Even though he is obviously covertly spreading stuff on me, is the high road just to turn the other cheek?

    Speculation: Was he in fact running a ponzi scheme? Has he made some sort of deal with the COS for their support in exchange for keeping them out of the media and litigation, not wanting another splash of scientologist ponzi scam artist fall out? The church is keeping his history of scamming public from authorities to protect themselves, instructing public not to sue him for the greater good?

    Speculation: Is he still playing both sides of the fence, soliciting investments and money from both freezone folks and Church public, either under his own name or other names or his wife and doesn't want his name spread because it shuts down his gig?

    Does this change the moral responsibility of casting the light of truth about to see if this is in fact a Scientology cover-up?

    Can in fact a COS declare be valid? Lol, when is an SP really an SP??
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Thanks for the background, Mike.

    Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."

    Paul
     
  3. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Hi Mike,
    Let me get this straight.. is this the guy filling Dexter's ear about you, about Marty etc? Is he the guy who Dexter says is his long long friend?

    If someone is committing crimes, they should be reported. That's our responsibility as citizens, I believe. Morally, I would not be able to sleep at night knowing this person is ripping people off and getting away with it.

    Mary
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  4. Dilettante

    Dilettante Patron Meritorious

    What is right

    Focus on that for starters. If you have first hand knowledge of the person intentionally misrepresenting his ability to invest/trade (as in liscensed) That is worth mentioning to the FTC. If this person has violated the codes as set forth in fair trade, report him to the FTC and FBI. That would be the right thing to do. Airing greivances might be counterproductive or at the very least a distraction. Dox please to the proper authorites. Swiftly.
    Dil
     
  5. Dilettante

    Dilettante Patron Meritorious

    on that distraction thing

    Oh, yeah! Much of your initial post has to do with many, many other people. Distracted much? This guy is good. Set an example for his family, unethical is unethical. Report it. And then tell us another story!!!
    Dil
     
  6. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Mary,

    I have no data that this guy is filling Dexters ear about Marty, other than his spreading I am running and financing Marty. Opinions on Marty are outside my focus and interest here. This guy has no data other than from this board and Marty's blog and the COS anti marty sites that I have any connections to Marty. We have not been in touch since I had reconnected with Marty.

    I don't know for sure that he is committing crimes, I know what he did with me was illegal, but I made no official complaint, didn't really understand everything at that time, and the statute of limitations have long since passed. I simply can connect dots for the current players in this game.

    The guy is amazingly slick and smooth, the type of person who, when he is your friend, makes you feel like a million bucks, he is extremely intelligent, and may have well found a legal gray area to operate under.

    All I know is he is being sued, has shut down several shell companies, transferred othres into his wifes name, I know what he did with me, other points are rumour, thats it, and is stirring shit.

    I can publically connect his past that he is distancing himself from to his present. Thats really what my earlier questions are based on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  7. Dilettante

    Dilettante Patron Meritorious

    paper trail

    Hi Mike. I'm glad you made out okay but the idea here is truth and honesty. He may never cop to it, no problem. The authorities need the information you have. :yes: There is no staute of limitations on truth. There is a silent compliance that could be unsavory. Just offer your piece of the puzzle and file it away. Sad to say how many others failed to report this and how much could have been avoided.
    Dil
     
  8. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Well, your letter implies he's criminal in present time and you were not sure whether to report him.

    Anyway, there is a lot of stuff in your OP and I think the central question we here on ESMB would want to know is if he is the guy pushing the lie to dexter that you are running and financing Marty. And if that is the case, I say name him. The rest will fall into place. Why wouldn't you post his name, since he's causing problems for you with his lies. I say 'defend yourself'

    Those type of financial shenanagans are not as uncommon in the scientology community or by scientologists as 'professionals' as one would think.

    ps:
    I always pass on documented data I've found or come across on someone if it will help someone who is being victimized by that person in a similar way.
     
  9. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Mary,

    Re-read your note.

    There is only one person I have invested money in and not lost it all, which is why I don't make investments of that sort any more. There is only one Scientologist I have gone toe to toe with in this type of circumstances. The "factoids" Dexter lists, can only relate to the above instance.

    I would have used Dexters same words to describe him like a brother when we were friends.

    Dexter is publically connected to him as a close friend. If there is any truth to what Dexter has said, it is this guy. Can not be anyone else.

    I simply can't understand his motivation in covertly throwing stones when he lives in a glass house. There has to be a profit motive in it. I wouldn't have even thought to check him out if it were not for Dexter's persistence. That’s why I wonder if there isn't a COS motive. OSA has been burning a lot of resources lately to gain "points" that have no strategic value. I have trouble believing OSA is so stupid as to burn a resource whose unethical or criminal past runs through the COS. A lot of speculation here.

    Maybe the guy was just trying to gain favor with Dexter for some reason, running his mouth, and dug himself a hole and the COS has nothing to do with it. Maybe the enthusiasm and vehemence came from Dexter himself.

    Dexter, who has never met me, will run his mouth about what he has heard of me but will not contact me directly to discuss.
     
  10. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    Irregular financial dealings amongst Scientologists????? :omg:

    Ponzi Schemes???? :omg:

    Cover ups????? :omg:

    THe CoS Covering it's ass???? :omg:

    Well if this guy is Dexter's source and bosom "like a brother" buddy, I hope he hasn't given him any money. Dexter isn't my favourite person right now but I'd hate for him to get financially stung after all he's been through in the last few years.
     
  11. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Mary,

    I assume the illegal financial dealings are continuing based on the law suits filed against him as of september 2010.
     
  12. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    There is no "policy" on how to handle it. Just do and say what you will. Some will never believe you no matter what you say or do. Why should you care?

    It's good to see you posting again.
     
  13. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator


    Then fuck it. Either name him or send your dox to the relevent authorities, or both. Whatever will be the most effective. If he's a criminal then inform the authorities and warn people at the same time.

    America doesn't need another Reed Slatkin.
     
  14. anondelmundial

    anondelmundial Patron with Honors

    Ex-Scientologists MUST come to terms with the drama of being a former Scientologist.

    Frankly, there is no "drama" except in the mind of an Ex that has not yet figured out (cognited) that Scientology is no longer a factor in his/her life.

    Those newly "out" need to understand that rejecting Scientology is much like choosing bwtween a hamburger or the pasta in a restaurant. Whatever one chooses to eat in the restaurant exposes one's freedom of choice. Scientology offers no choices. In fact, Scientology teaches its adherents that there is no choice!
     
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Right Emma.

    Dex has been asked to not name a source. And he is honorably
    abiding by that.

    Mike hasn't been.

    So names and DOX.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  16. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    "Evil" can never triumph in the long run. That it fails is built directly into the Universe.
     
  17. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    Yes. I totally agree. But newly out is a relative term. Some have been "out" for years before they can think without the filters. We all need to be treated with kid gloves.
     
  18. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    Hey, "Americans" (that is USAians) need spams and ripoff artists and Federal Reserves and Goldman Sachs and and and. Just ask their President, YoMomma Nobama, he'll tell you.
     
  19. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Mustic speaks sooth. It will all turn out right.

     
  20. Sindy

    Sindy Crusader

    :heartflower::rose::biglove:
     
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