ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



What to reveal to family Scientologists

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Anonymous100, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Anonymous100

    Anonymous100 Patron

    I have 2 family members that are asking questions. One wants to know mainly if I am still looking at anti Scientology sites or if I am in any anti Scientology groups as it bothers them. The other after looking at a little of Leahs series...the abuses of some people...said its mostly old stories...and then refusing that hiring pi's is cultish and that their skim reading of hubbard and the occult has 'nothing to do with auditing etc and maybe hubbard checked it out but so what its too fantastic etc '....wants me to give them one piece of information that I deem is so bad that that is why I seemingly have charge on Scientology (of course I have to give up as well what Ive done as that is also a reason for the rift in the family).

    Ive refused to give up any more information and they think its because I believe I will get in trouble. But actually its because they would have to confront the ot level stuff plus I dont think that they are waivering in their beliefs enough to really take it on. I dont know. Any thoughts? Am I better off just persuading them Im neutral and not saying any more?
     
  2. Miss Ellie

    Miss Ellie Miss Ellie

    Depends on your relationship and how important it is to you. Also the relationship may not be that important today but if disconnection happens tomorrow how will you feel in 5-years?

    You can ways pull the "if it is true for you" card but do not expect understanding on that.

    Do you want to continue to live a lie by pretending what your feelings are?

    Only you can answer and only you know your family and your love for them. Good luck on your journey on this rocky road.
     
    Dulloldfart likes this.
  3. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think you mentioned once that you knew David Gaiman? Well, his son, Neil, used to be a prominent scientologist but he no longer is. This is despite most of his close family being hard-core scientologists. Whenever he is asked by the media about scientology he doesn't say anything negative about it. He just says: "That's my family, not me".

    I'm sure he knows that if he starts being critical he will lose his family so he just keeps quiet. That is one option you could consider. I know it's easy for me to say that because I don't have any family or friends still in but I'm just mentioning it as a possible solution.
     
    Enthetan likes this.
  4. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    Tell them you are a member of a scientific organisation, and your organisation has heard that they have been reading stuff that is unscientific. Aggressively ask them whether they have listened to Hubbard's tape about the between lives area, and to give you time-place-form-and-event, and to tell you the number of times they listened to it. Ask insistently whether they listened to the bit where he claims he went to Venus, and was almost run over by a train there. Inform them that, according to probes that have been sent to the Venusian surface, the temperature there is about 740 Kelvin (around 570 degrees Celsius - hot enough to melt lead) and the atmospheric pressure at the surface is equivalent to that you would find 800m below the surface of the sea. Tell them that it is vitally important that they tell you this, because being around people with such erroneous ideas could be severely detrimental to your health. Ask them whether they have read about Incident I of OT III, which occurred at the start of this universe 4 quadrillion years ago - but the universe is only a matter of 10-15 billion years old according to scientific evidence. And whether they have read that not smoking ENOUGH is the cause of lung cancer. Do all of this insistently.

    Then sit back, relax, and ask them calmly whether they think it is OK for you to make such demands as to what they are or are not allowed to read.
     
  5. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    For the second one, cue up the following video, put it at 5:28 where Hubbard is asked about his second wife.

    He replies "I never had a second wife"



    Now ask "Which wife was Mary Sue?"

    He's in his sailor's hat, so we are in his Sea Org days. Either he is visibly lying, or he is visibly senile enough to have forgotten he's married to Mary Sue. Which is it, and does that align with Hubbard's OT-ness?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  6. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    You can just tell them: "I wish to maintain good relations with the family, so this is not a subject I desire to get into discussions with".
     
    The_Fixer and Bill like this.
  7. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Two potential problems with this approach:

    1) They will only have heard about the "trains on Venus" thing if they've been listening to the tapes, and that one they may not have encountered unless they've done the Briefing Course, which nobody seems to be doing these days.

    2) Can we be sure that Miscavige has not had that bit edited out of the current versions of the tapes?
     
  8. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Why are so many video makers using clones of Stephen Hawking to provide the narration, and why don't they get real humans to do it? As soon as I hear those AI voices I imagine the substance of their material is as phony as the voice is.
     
    Enthetan likes this.
  9. Edwardo

    Edwardo Patron with Honors

    Now and then I work with someone who is a committed Scientologist.

    When I had my Damascene conversion, I tried to talk to him about the beatings at Int, and the fake stats, etc, but he wouldn’t have it. At all.

    I could have continued trying, but the likely result would have been that one of us would have had to quit.

    So instead I said I wouldn’t talk about Scientology with him unless he brought it up with me first.

    I thought that within a year we’d be laughing about it together, but actually it’s been ten years and neither of us has ever brought it up.

    It’s not an ideal situation, but the compromise has allowed us to continue working together and to amiably chat about other things.

    I don’t think my solution would be as easy to do with a close family member though. It would drive me crazy to think of them donating large sums.
     
  10. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    Yes, it certainly does align with Hubbard's OTness. He was so OT, he was able to defy arithmetic and have a first and a third wife, without having a second one.
     
  11. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    My conversion to Celsius was about 100 degrees off. 740 Kelvin is more like 467 degrees Celsius. Still, that's some harsh atmospheric conditions. Even if the train station was near one of the poles, the Venusians would still have to contend with the super-high atmospheric pressure. Hubbard would have been better off focusing his attention on Mars for his story telling. Did they ever find that implant station in the Pyrenees that he mentioned?
     
  12. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    To a True Believer, any data which does not align with what they want to believe, must be a lie or an elaborate hoax.
     
    Wilbur likes this.
  13. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    When I was in, I was a true believer, a zealot. Whenever I would talk to someone who used to be active and then wasn't, I always took the approach that somehow, someway they would come back. I was very hands off, but maintained a relationship in hopes they would "see the light." Only on certain occasions where the purpose of my conversation was to "handle them", I never drew a line in the sand. Hope is always present when speaking to someone who you want back in.

    In other words, getting on with life doesn't mean it absolutely needs to be handled NOW.

    Now that I'm out, and so is my better half, we have people talk to us, but we never get into much detail. No one is pressing the issue. I'm just so unhappy for them, for being fooled and for being taken advantage of.
     
    Wilbur and Enthetan like this.
  14. Anonymous100

    Anonymous100 Patron

    Well thank you all. It came to a head today without me having enough time to think of a good solution. Apparently Im a coward now for not coming up with any logical argument. 'How can the purif not be ok when 9 11 guys felt better ...how come most people get through it' ..also apparently the ACCs are all about body stuff and its so detailed and amazing info...I have no knowledge of these. So could not answer as to where hubbard would have got his info etc. They did concede that the purif may not be good for some who are weak etc. I also expressed my doubts about the emeter and the possible physical problems for health...apparently I know nothing about electricity and I need to look at all this logically etc...people are winning and not all getting sick. Oh well I did let the 'Crowley is my good friend' quote slip out as this person thought it too fantastical to think hubbard was into satan worship and 'anyway that is all made up (magic and devil worship is about imagination ) '. I always regret this sort of argument as I cannot seem to decide what to reveal or if I should anyway.
     
  15. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    It's sorely tempting to get into what the church would call a 'games condition' on this, isn't it? If only you could prove your family members wrong about Hubbard, then they would see the light, and everything would be OK. The thing is, you CAN'T prove them wrong. If you give them a weak, ill-informed (or plain wrong) argument that you picked up somewhere on the internet, they will go to great pains to prove you wrong, so they can shut up your criticism. And if you come up with something they can't prove wrong, they will say that the source of that information is a liar. Their whole mindset is rigged for them so that you cannot win an argument against Scientology. And the more you try to make them wrong, the more they will resort simply to faith and belief in Hubbard.

    If I was in that situation now, I would have two prongs to my approach: (1) I would refuse to get into arguments about whether Scn was workable or not, or whether it was true or not. Regardless of the truth, you can't win those arguments. I would totally skip it.
    (2) I would vigorously defend my right not to be harassed and harangued for not being in their cult. Requests to justify what I was or was not reading on the internet, etc, would be met with a stone-cold 'fuck off', and I would not engage in further justification of my position. I would be calm and pleasant to them, until they started making threats and insisting I tell them what I'm reading on the internet, and then I would be TOTALLY unreasonable with them after that. I would take a leaf out of their book. Whenever asked about what I was reading, and being harangued about it, I would immediately switch into screaming at them "what are your crimes?" or some non-Scientology analogue of that kind of response. Refusing to reason with them, I'd immediately make it about attacking them, and make them defend themselves And then, when their unreasonable demands stopped, I would immediately calm down again.

    Either the relationship would totally break down, and good-fucking-riddance to them, or they would soon learn that I'm not standing for them violating my basic human right to determine my own mind, and shut-the-fuck up about their stupid cult.
     
    Miss Ellie and ThetanExterior like this.
  16. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    The mistake you're making is that you are trying to reason with them. You don't win arguments with cult members by reasoning with them. You win by shutting them up. When told that the "purif is successful", don't try to discuss the evidence with them. Rant on and on about so-and-so who left Scientology penniless after 25 years, and the world's first Clear who left Scientology, and Hubbard's own eldest son who left and spoke out, and Hubbard's Class XII auditor son, who killed himself, and his wife who went to prison for the church and was then abandoned by Hubbard, and even Aleister Crowley claimed that Hubbard stole a boat from him, and can they all be SPs and liars, or is it more likely that Hubbard is the liar? and let's see a Clear who has perfect recall, and let's see an OT who is stably exterior with full perception, and if they are creating that then they won't mind showing me one, despite the fact that my asking apparently makes me low toned, on and on and on in a tirade like that. They will label you nuts, but it will shut them up, and it won't be long before they stop raising those issues with you.

    Sure, they may disconnect from you. But if they're gonna, they will anyway, so you might as well retain your integrity.
     
    Miss Ellie likes this.
  17. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Look what happened to Luis Garcia in his recent arbitration with the CoS. When he tried to put his case verbally to the International Justice Chief he was repeatedly told to shut up because it was "entheta". These people are temporarily insane. They have a "held-down seven". There is no point arguing with them. The best way to defeat them is to flourish and prosper in your own life and let the overwhelming "entheta" on the internet and in the media take them down.
     
    Miss Ellie and Wilbur like this.