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Who is Gunther Laws?

Discussion in 'Leaks - Emails, Promo, Insider Info' started by Outethicsofficer, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Hi Mike,

    I was hoping that you'd drop in and set the record straight, that's why I mentioned you in my original post here.

    I loved your old man too. He and I spent quite a bit of time together as he battled his way through the Solo NOTs obstacle course. As I said, he was a real trouper and, even if he did get a bit testy about it at times, he also made me laugh a lot!

    I'm happy to hear that you are free of them and even though we haven't seen each other since the 90's, I remember you and your family with fondness.

    All the best, An Old Friend from Sydney.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  2. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    Welcome Mike - I look forward to the rest of your story.
  3. Opter

    Opter Silver Meritorious Patron

    < Same>

  4. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Thank you for the responses, and I am tremendously curious as to the identity of some of the anonymous posters that seem to remember me and my family, but all in good time.

    I have been out of Australia for most of the last 25 years, so I don't believe my personal information will be of interest or material value to the good senator or an inquiry. What I do hope is that my and others coming out openly, together with all the others, will help pave the way for more to openly tell their story. The church's policy of disconnection, threats, intimidation and terror to those that don't tow the party line must stop, the church must reform or be driven to extinction. Because of the way the church controls and manipulates information, it takes many people openly standing up and telling the truth, honestly, calmly and rationally telling what really goes on, despite personal discomfort or risk.

    The inquiries of the late 60's reformed and improved the church, if only temporary, they are the only thing I know of that impacted the church so.

    As this post is really about my father and parents, if I may suggest an area of research for those on the ground, especially in Melbourne, that I believe might bear fruit. The treatment of older, retired, senior Scientologists.

    My father was popular and got attention and help from Melbourne Org only so long as he gave money. When he stopped donating, either because he was sick of them, or because he couldn't, he was discarded and ignored. No one would visit him. Scientology sends its volunteer ministers to disasters around the world, using them as media whores to gain some creditability, but does nothing to look after, care for, spend time with those old time scientologists who gave their lives and lifetimes accumulation of wealth to the church, without thanks.

    There are also older staff that have been discarded, broken and in poor health.

    There are children of older retired scientologists, no longer involved with the church or philosophy, irate and angry with their parents being manipulated to give all their money, mortgage or sell their homes for the church, leaving these elder people destitute, a burden on the state, or their children, despite having lived successful and productive lives.

    When my father got older and his health began failing, my sister and I wanted him to come to the US with us; he refused, he loved Australia, it was his home. He received spectacular care from the shire of Werribee, senior care superior to anything but the best private care available in the US. Melbourne Org did nothing for him, no visits, no calls except for money or to come to an event. Flag, the same. Sydney too.

    I don't blame the staff, they are struggling to survive, fulfill impossible quotas issued with psychotic randomness from an instable and unpredictable management. I don't blame the public, who are doing their best and really believe they are working to save the world and their family in the only way that matters.

    I blame the culture of the organization, completely motivated by self interest, self gratification, self empowerment, a climate horrendously amplified over the last two decades by and under DM. Scientologists in good standing are afraid to talk freely, afraid to think freely, afraid to ask questions, because they are programmed, if not brainwashed into believing that they and their families and children will be denied eternity.

    My next post will be more on target with Gunther's story, but several people responded above, reporting their memories of Gunther as a grump. I would like to put some context to this.

    Whether true or misguided, my father believed with all his heart that Scientology was the best and only hope for the future of the world, his family, his children. He lived his life for almost 50 years in an exemplary form.

    Every major event in Melbourne and Australia’s scientology history had his support or hand in some way. When the fire burned down Melbourne Org, my family was there, in the ashes, doing everything from salvaging materials through ironing, page by page PC folders that were fire and water damaged. Demonstrations in Canbera. When Scientology was banned in Victoria, my father sold his house in a recession, for a fraction of the value, moving to Adelaide to support the church there. The state of Victoria was Suppressive, it was his responsibility to disconnect, despite personal loss. His family of 4 living out of a small caravan in someone’s back yard, living in poverty, again for the church. He was unable to find work at a fair wage, but persisted. The only two memories I have from that time were as a small boy, following my father through Adelaide org as a government raid was under way, wondering at the people in suits ... and being bathed by my mother in a concrete tub in some back yard by the trailer surrounded by a tall fence.

    Imagine how he felt with his 13 year old daughter, having been recruited into the Sea Org, living in Sydney without proper food, personal hygiene products or care, being assigned to the RPFs RPF at 13 years old, for months, later being told that it was all a mistake. Imagine his feeling at knowing his daughter wanted to leave, but the Sea Org refusing to let her go until he paid off her freeloader debt, shortly before 2, when she was shoved out the door.

    Imagine how he felt, as a factory worker, working 7 days a week, double shifts wherever he could, night shift wherever possible because it paid a few extra dollars an hour. Imagine his pride and joy at having gotten his wife and daughter through OT V at the AO in Sydney. Imagine his wife of some 30 years dying of cancer months after completing her OT levels, and his being told that it was Mayo NOTS, and not to worry she would come back, but he better buy more auditing for his daughter so she too didn't die of cancer too.

    Imagine having to re-do his own OT levels many times because of out tech in the church, quoting free service free fall. Imagine sacrificing your finances for hundreds of hours of Dianetic auditing past clear, where he just felt he got worse, being told by the church that it was his responsibility, he pulled it in.

    Imagine going to Flag, being discarded when he wouldn't give more money for more services, having a stroke in his Flag hotel room, and being left, unattended and without care or medical attention for several days.

    Could this make someone Grumpy?
  5. PokerPlayer

    PokerPlayer Patron

    I would be more than grumpy I would be pissed off.

    Also makes me understand some other things as well.

    Life as a staff member is so fucked up and we fail to see it as we are living it.

    Hello Mike. Glad you found this board.
  6. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    God Mike, your post makes me so angry. I saw so much of the same type of thing....people are not seen as PEOPLE. :grouch:

    I'm not sure if I know you - I was around Melbourne org 1979-82 and in the field after that, except for being involved with the school there in 1989.

    I think the treatment of the elder generation in scio in Australia is one that needs looking at closely. The stories they can tell too......!
  7. Happy Days

    Happy Days Silver Meritorious Patron

    Welcome Mike

    Thank you for making your dad a real person to me and not just some error on a waiver I was sent from FSSO.

    I apologise for any upset I and OEO may have caused by posting it on the ESMB.

    Your story of your family's journey particularly Gunther must be told to the appropriate authorities if only to show a history of unacceptable behaviour , culture and operating basis by Church officials.

    But for now I look forward to reading more of your story as it's already quite a story.

    All the best
  8. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    It angers me reading stories like this and saddens me so deeply.
  9. Kutta

    Kutta Silver Meritorious Patron

    Hi Mike and welcome. Your account of your poor father's treatment is absolutely galling. The inhumanity is incomprehensible. I feel very sad for you and your sister that you have these very hurtful memories. Although you live in USA now, I really believe it would be worthwhile sending your report about your father to Senator Xenathon.
  10. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Dear Mike,

    :touched: Reading the back story details of your father's life, his dedication, sacrifice and ultimate disappointment in scientology, along with the effects of these on the rest of your family has moved me deeply. Every former member can share in and appreciate the life and losses. I hope to see more.

    I suspect that your father would be very proud of you for posting this.

    I believe the Senator needs to read what you have written. Please consider this. Here is the contact email address.

    Mary McConnell :hug:
  11. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious


    Thanks for your kind words, and having studied a little of what you posted, I believe your personal experience allows you to understand the paradox of what my father and other senior scientologists went through. The same really holds true, if not more so, of the staff that dedicated decades of their lives to the cause to be discarded with disgust.

    They believed with their minds, hearts and actions of a lifetime that Scientology was humanities best and only hope. Their loyalty was rewarded with betrayal and injustice. The church has become increasingly vampirical towards its parishoners, to the point they suck everything of value of staff and public

    A rather crass old time staff member that worked on intell lines, a long time ANZO friend, laughed as we discussed this and said he felt he/we were treated as condoms, placed between a member that wanted to rape and pillage and stuck into every nasty and diseased orfice chosen on a whim. When they were finished, we were thrown down with disgust and a new one put on.

    My sister and I have lived pretty good lives, getting better all the time. I believe there is no value or profit in remaining or dwelling in the realm of being a victim, but I believe an essential part of recovery is to confront the belly of the beast and help ensure that the true history is known, and the organization prevented from perpetuating future attrocities.

    There are many ways to do this, and I am examing my own path and future actions.

    Regards Dad, he loved a good fight and argument. He would have loved to be involved in what many of you are doing. Even in the 80's As an OT VIII on the ship, on three different occasions, he cornered guillaume leserve, to confront him on the high prices of services, straight out telling him it was wrong, and find out what he would do about it. Obviously there were no answers, and guillaume was rescued. You have to get the picture though ... an OT VIII with a thick German/Aussie accent, wearing old shorts, a singlet ("wife beater to the Americans), big belly, wearing either thongs (flip flops) or slippers, legs white as the driven snow, cornering and grilling Guillaume.

    On another occasion, following the death of Hubbard, Gunther felt management had lost touch with the public, and felt Hubbard wanted a group of public, revolving, to provide oversight to management to ensure they kept straight.

    I was in RTC at that time, and don't know how many times Jesse Prince, who had an awesome sense of humour, talked to me about getting my dad under control. Gunther knew RTC was senior to ED Int, so went as far as threatening to get his son involved if Giaullaume did not do anything about it. I don't think Gunther realized how little power or influence I or anyone had to change the course of the church, I never had the heart to tell him, it was all I could do not to get him branded a "nut job" and denied future OT Services, which I now don't even know was positive!

    He was a character.

  12. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thank you for sharing your story and who your Dad was, Mike. I did have a laugh at the image of him in his wife beater and flip flops, grilling Guillaume :D
  13. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious


    Thanks for this. At first I didn't know what to think with your and OEO's post, I also wasn't sure if the Church wasn't simply playing some harasment games with me as has occured a number of times. It is all good in the end, I do appreciate your courtest and respect in this comment, and find that good clean communication and understanding will resolve pretty much everything.

    I believe there is a systemic mistreatment of elder scientologists across Australia, and perhaps the world, minimally the US. If this can only bring attention and justice to that, everything was well worth it.

    Some investigation was done on the error from the ship, and it basically was as suspected; copy pasta mistake, overwhelmed chaplain for whom english is a second language (German?). I don't think she is a bad egg, but she is pretty oblivious to the injustices of the church, and naive to the impossibility of changing conditions from within.

    What is interesting though, and you may be asked for this by her, she is apparently asking for refunds to be donated to Scientology PR actions in columbia "to help the kids". Quite gobsmacking to realize that they will declare/expell you for asking for your money back, and then ask you to donate your refund back to them! Still shaking my head over that concept.
  14. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Thanks Skollie,

    Gunther used to get into regular ethics trouble at Flag for his attire. Still have to chuckle at his griping that the church was trying to fill itself up with beautiful rich people and no longer was trying to help the working man "like Ron did".

    But, one of my Dad's hero's was a West Texas oil man, now deceased, by the name of Willie B Wilson, who at the time was worth something like $100,000,000 US. Willie would show up with cut off jeans, or old worn jeans and boots, an old t-shirt and a diamond encrusted OT braclet. Willies 4th ex wife backed her cadalac into his livingroom towards the end of the marriage because he cut off her platinum credit cards after she went on one too many spending sprees costing more than my dad made in a year. He used this as an inspiration towards wanting to become rich, because then he could wear whatever he wanted and no one would say anything.

    Gunther was the only person I knew that could talk his way out of ethics for "nattering", by holding without guile, and with complete certainty, to the statement that if it is true it isn't natter. He had lots of beefs on the price of immortality and freedom, and that so few people could afford it.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  15. jenni with an eye

    jenni with an eye Silver Meritorious Patron

    Welcome Mike

    Great to have you here on ESMB.
    I have read what you have put up so far.
    Please forward your fathers story & yours to the Senator.
    Every story about OSA & the CofS is important.
    All this information really puts the pieces together &
    shows the true nature of the beast.
  16. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious


    Thanks for your kind words. I am unsure of who you are though!! In my various trips to Australia, especially when visiting Dad, I tried to reconnect with old friends, but had difficulty especially pre-internet.

    Yeah, he could get testy, but he wouldn't give up ... put up with more shit and kept the faith, until near the end.

    If you worked with him on the solo nuts stuff, I am sure you lived some of his frustrations on the difference between what he was promised with Scientology and what he got. He was promised, repeatedly, that going up the bridge would help him handle his physical ailments such as lethargy, diabetes, and what I now believe may have been a form of depressions. Litterally hundreds of thousands of dollars and decades of work made no difference, and his health continued to deteriorate.

    The only time I ever saw fear from Gunther was when he was at his wits end ... the church wouldn't help him without more money, and the only thing he had left to his name was his house. He knew that if he sold his house the church would not look after him, and had so many failed purposes on help, so many new promises "we have it right now, you just have to pay for it one more time" that he lost his trust. Gunther was sad and frustrated that being at the top of the bridge he couldn't materially change conditions in his life, couldn't improve his health, and when he got sick of it he decided that he wanted to "leave the body", or die. He found he couldn't even will himself to die, he couldn't make the decision the body was old, lay down and leave ... he kept waking up. He started to realize he had been lied to, OT was not what was promised, and he had genuine fear that things like that he would be unable to come back to a rich scientology family and all the rest ... all of it was smoke. It made him very uncomfortable, made him uncertain of the work and dedication of a life time.

    This still makes me so sad and angry. Especially knowing he was not alone.

    After he died, and my sister and I were over there for some months taking care of his affairs. I got a visit from one of the Rinder brother, Anthony?, who was regging for the Melbourne Ideal Org. It seems somehow the church figured out that, although they got his retirement and all his other money, they missed his house. I was being reged for that, to build the new org library and dedicate it to him, so that his memory and contribution to Scientology in the Melbourne area could be memorialized. As part of this reg cycle, because of my history and status as a "knwoedgable insider" I was told that the planning was flawed, and that they were lying to the Shire or Council in which the building ... it was impossible for them to provide proper parking for the intended use, so they were obtaining some sort of false zoning to get it approved.

    This to me was such a microcosm of his experience with the church ... good words designed to emotionally suck in, take money for nothing, lie and con to get what they wanted, twist the facts and truth ...

    It was all I could do not to spit in his face. I only got out without incident by lying ... his estate was unsettled and he had debts that may consume everything ...

    Pretty disgusting.

    I would not say I am "free of them", but I am no longer afraid of the church. I have spent much of the last year and a half laying down a mine field that will make it increadibly painful for the church to attack me or my family, friends and business. At this time I can't get into why I can't immediately be free, as even posting openly under my own name has potential consequences, but if they give one of mine a black eye, they will have 4 with broken noses and teeth.
  17. Mike Laws

    Mike Laws Patron Meritorious

    Hi Emma,

    Sorry for the delay in responding to your greeting.

    Thank you for having me here. It is a small world!

    I think we may know each other, but I am not sure ... it may have only been a passing meeting.


  18. skollie

    skollie Silver Meritorious Patron

    This enrages me and also brings me to tears. How can a man's "church" do this to him? The cruelty that this organization is capable of, especially to the aging followers, never ceases to astound me.

    Good on you for not giving them any more of your Dad's money.

  19. Feral

    Feral Rogue male

    Mike, your story is a very important one.

    I'm so sorry about what your father went through, I only met him once or twice and knew very little about him.

    I share his disappointment with the CofS.

    I know the senator would welcome your information, Please send it on to him
  20. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    That's reassuring to know, I wouldn't want just anyone to know who I am! :D
    In your case however, check your PMs. :)