ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Why Scientology seems to work up to Clear?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by jea-su, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    "... look at the ideas behind the theories"?

    Yeah, like I said, we true believers made up all sorts of crap to elevate Hubbard's theories to levels even he did not claim. Please stop it.

    "Clear" is exactly what Hubbard said, not what you think he might have been thinking but didn't actually say.

    You are actually claiming that "Clear" is attainable via Buddhism's nirvana. Please don't do that again. It elevates Hubbard's crap to a level that it does not deserve. "Clear" is not nirvana. It isn't even vaguely like nirvana.
     
  2. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter


    I'm only saying that to have someone who's free of aberration, you'd be loojing at someone free from all trappings and accouterments of mortality.

    Obviously I'm not elevating Hubbard or his works. Quite the contrary.
     
  3. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Most people, when they let their imagination run, can invent a whole list of abilities a person could, theoretically, have if they were free of all aberrations and they would say "This is how I imagine it would be" or words to that effect.

    The problem with Hubbard was that he stated things as FACT even though he just imagined them, for example "Clear" and "OT".

    This is what has caused all the trouble.

    Now people argue about "the state of Clear" as though it is real.

    Well, since Hubbard was known to lie just as often as tell the truth and since he redefined "the state of Clear" several times and since there never has been anyone who could demonstrate that they had attained this state then I declare myself to be in the "Hubbard was full of crap" camp.
     
  4. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I've seen some odd things and I believe in miracles, etc.

    But there also are occasions where people think those things are happening but they are not.

    YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  5. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

  6. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    <sigh> No, you are not looking at such a person.

    What didn't you understand about Hubbard's "cleared cannibal" statement? According to Hubbard's concept of "Clear", if you cleared a selfish, stupid, cruel, greedy person, you'd have a selfish, stupid, cruel, greedy Clear.

    Not a being who had attained Buddhism's nirvana. NOT "someone free from all trappings and accoutrements of mortality".

    You claim that "Clear" would create a superior being that even Hubbard didn't claim. That is most certainly elevating "Clear" to levels that it does not deserve.
     
  7. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    No. Not what I'm doing.

    I think Hubbard redefined and attempted to rework certain concepts about man as spirit. All I'm trying to do is view those things and where Hub went wrong.

    Like I said, I'm deconstructing.

    He called a certain way of being a "clear". He then said he could produce a clear. He never could.

    Nobody's gonna be free of all human problems until they achieve full enlightenment, as far as I can see. I'd like to get away from terms and words to the spiritual ideals behind them.

    An example would be a prophet spoken through by a god and someone who channeled some god or other entity. The former would dislike the term "channel", yet something very similar happened to both.
     
  8. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I myself have seen many bizarre occurrences, but I was under the influence of LSD at the time. My point is that just because one has observed something, it doesn't automatically follow that it happened in the 'real world'.
     
  9. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Hmm... Is this all a big too doo about nothing? :wink2:


    Is it a significant nothing or a nothing of no significance?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  10. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    That is what I am trying to get you to do. STOP calling other spiritual states "Clear". STOP saying "Clear" can be attained via Buddhism. STOP saying "Clear" is "like" some other thing.

    If you want to talk about spiritual enlightenment - do not call it "Clear" and we won't have a mis-identification of what you are talking about.
     
  11. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    yep, the only thing missing in that stairway picture to nowhere are clipboards & pinksheets. :laugh:

    can somebody do a shoop?

    oh, maybe some certs too.
     
  12. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Well... as long as I get a cert.:winner:
     
  13. Elronius of Marcabia

    Elronius of Marcabia Silver Meritorious Patron

    Very true Strat

    Conceptual is the huge infinite world between a persons ears and all is possible
    the real or actual is qute a different subject.

    Here's a couple of Hubbards teachings are false that keep that kind of walking head
    world of OT etc etc alive and well in the minds of his pupils.

    "If it is'nt true for you it is'nt true" therefore no need to look to reality

    "agreement is reality" therefore no need to look beyond agreement

    self referential looping logics
     
  14. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    Thanks for injecting Reality into this thread's ARC triangle! lol

    And furthermore. . .

    "OT" is not nirvana either. It isn't even vaguely like nirvana. I learned this from researching wholetrack music, particularly the Xenu/BT song Ron said he wrote, that he actually ripped off from Kurt Kobain called: "Smells Like OT(een) Spirits".
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
  15. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter


    I don't call them clear. I just think all these people were trying to achieve the same thing. Nirvana isn't clear but what's behind it seems same-same.
     
  16. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    :omg:
    I give up. :duh:
     
  17. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Bill, you're good people but you should know by now that I mislike being harangued. I just think that everyone is trying to figure out what to do and what was a lie and where we go from here.

    Well, gosh. If someone's ways of criticizing and critiquing Scn-which reflect disagreement with Scn- aren't acceptable and are upsetting to others, all I can say is, kinda sounds intolerant and thought policeish. It's a big diverse world out there, global villages, all that uber cool Liberal stuff that's constantly touted. You can't afford to always get mad at thought processes in others. Wastes energy, raises blood pressure.

    You weren't ever in, amirite? Well, those who were or those whose lives were otherwise touched by the spectre of Hubbardism are reeling from it, years later. It's a lot like recovering from a dysfunctional home. Notice that those who are still reel from it decades later.

    So we puzzle stuff out.

    Tons of posts and threads by ppl here whose viewpoints are dissimilar from mine. But, in the end, it's their dealibop.

    I'm out of Scn. Not even doing FZ. That's more than good enuff for anyone here. If they don't think so, they're wrong.

    I want to know where I go from here and I'm disinclined to take anyone's directives over my own.
     
  18. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Oh get off your fucking high horse. I was in Scientology for over 40 years, in the Sea Org, on staff, OT V, trained auditor.

    You keep claiming that "Clear" and Nirvana are ... same-same. That's just plain dumb!

    I know what you are thinking - that what people hoped for for "Clear" is the same kind of thing that people hope for for nirvana - but you are not saying that. You are saying that nirvana and "Clear" ARE the same. And that is completely wrong-wrong-wrong. And comes off as extremely uninformed.
     
  19. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter


    I apologize for my error. I did not know you were an ex. I appreciate that correction.
     
  20. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    OK, breathe in.

    Let it out. Ahhhh....whew!

    Isn't that better?

    Love, FB :)


    [​IMG]