What's new

Why T.I. "rails against justice"

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have for some time protested the "justice system" employed inside the Church.

I have been asked point blank "Why are you railing against justice?".

I guess it has taken me this long to think with that question for an honest and sane response.

The answer is this: I don't rail against justice, I rail against injustice.

I don't think with the ethics book staff need to be ordered off the the RPF everytime they haven't met approval. Why isn't the Sea Org using the ethics book and conditions? If a staff member was a liability, why isn't he assigned liability and permitted to work through it?

I don't see any RPF out in civilization yet we have people correcting themselves and damage done through contributions without being sent off to penal colonies unless they have broken written laws.

I don't see how a Scientologist can be sent to prison when they are working as volunteers to begin with. How can free labor be a liability?

I don't think the Church should attemt to lay down new laws that conflict with already established laws in society. To tell a Scientologist they cannot embrace the legal system they are already commited to as citizens is a denial of rights. There is a system in place to work through divorces and custody issues. Which staff in the ethics office are legal savvy enough to understand the consequences of divorce and child custody? Who knows how to change a diaper in the Sea Org? Why are these people dictating family affairs? I am not railing against justice. I am railing against injustice. There is not a fine line in between. If it is not just it is injust.

I think it is injust not to credit staff when they leave for labor put forth. It sends a message that all the time spent on staff wasn't worth a damn to anybody. That is a lie.

I think the Church ought to step up to the plate and take responsibility for people who should have been paid into social security before 1993 when the place was legally "Scientology Organizion" and the not a "Church". And if it isn't, provide for the elderly entrusted to their care.

I think the Church ought to make it clear to all staff they do not own any part of the Church or Sea Org just because they build it. The owner in fact is David Miscavige and they are working for him.

I think the Church ought not to take license in dicatating it's member's family matters. A family is a group. Staff who are not part of that group should claim no right to dictate the matters of groups they do not belong to.

I think the Church has no rights to demand it's member's "don't tell", and put people on witholds with the rest of mankind.

I don't think the Church should dictate CAN'T HAVES on the staff when it comes to personal matters. Such as cell telephones, computers, books whatever. This violates the laws of the land and the freedoms our ancestors worked hard for to provide for following generations.

I don't rail against justice. I rail against injustice.

Ethics is a CHOICE and cannot be enforced. Hubbard himself wrote:

"An ethical code cannot be enforced. Any effort to enforce the Code of Honor would bring it to the level of a moral code. It cannot be enforced simply because it is a way of life which can exist as a way of life only as long as it is not enforced."

I think the Church ought to stop spreading this rumor that "All the OT's are out ethics so we need to have money for the new super power building". Nattering about their products and having to have before they can do.

I don't rail against justice. I rail against injustice.

If they don't want children about on the premises that is fine. I think they ought to stop the enforced abortions with the staff. And stop using "justice" to punish women who choose not to kill.

I think the Church needs to knock off it's Internal Revenue Service section: SMI ABLE APPLIED SCHOLASTICS WISE . Who the hell up there at the top knows anything about running a drug rehab center? Who the hell up there has even seen a W2 form to run somebodies business? Children are illegle in the Church, who the hell up there knows how they should be educated? There are green vols and managment courses. People should be trained to manage and left alone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a graph and apply conditions. Charging 40,000 for a license to disseminate from a mission is a deliberate stop. The Church is so immersed in bean counting and collecting nobody in Detroit is being cleared.

I don't rail against justice, I rail against injustice.

YES! There are people come out of the Church now and take on the hat on inspectors, judges, prosecutors and try to inforce "ethics" in the Freezone and back in on the Church. Well it works both ways. If you are not a member of that group anymore why the hell are you out here still trying to control what is over there? That church was built with inmate labor, this is a prison planet. The staff are inmates just like you and I. What did you expect to happen? All of us are here because we were kicked out of someplace else. For all we know David Miscavige was a serial rapist before being booted off to this Earth colony.

Hubbard said: "An ethical code cannot be enforced. Any effort to enforce the Code of Honor would bring it to the level of a moral code. It cannot be enforced simply because it is a way of life which can exist as a way of life only as long as it is not enforced."

We all want a better world! We are all inmates, this is a prison planet. We are all on the same side. Who should be the judge jury inspector and executioner in an inmate society of unholy people called mankind? The people protesting against "out ethics" the loudest are the ones in the biggest pretense about who they are and why the ended up here. Nobody is holy or we wouldn't all be here.

There are about three crimes that can really be committed on this planet.

Murder.
Theft.
Physically wounding.

Sure you can come up subcrimes like "destruction of property" . Well that is theft really, when you take away something from somebody by destroying it.

This madness of "I am holier than you therefore ....................."

It is illusion.

I don't rail against justice.

I rail against my fellow inmates who use "justice" to dominate, suppress, control, stop, ridicule and imprison other fellow inmates.

If I haven't murdered someone, physically hurt someone, or stolen anything, you can take that ethics book and shove it up your _ _ _, if you are some self appointed "holy" Earth Sheriff (Ha ha) . If you think you can enforce this on people at all. But I have been around long enough to know that the woman protesting so loud against out ethics on the 2d was having sex with donkeys in cafes in her last life.

The ethics book should be used by intelligent people who can connect dots and think with formula's and magic. And it should be used only with interest then or it's formula's will never work.

And I feel like everyone else is permitted this same attitude, no matter what I may think of them or their group personally.

Lastly:

"An ethical code cannot be enforced. Any effort to enforce the Code of Honor would bring it to the level of a moral code. It cannot be enforced simply because it is a way of life which can exist as a way of life only as long as it is not enforced."
L.R.H.

Let's just climb off this idea of who is so damned unholy and out ethics and try to pull this world together a little bit.

There is something special and unique about everyone of us.

We are the artists of this world and our tomorrow. People were loaded on ships and cast out of England, dumped into what is now America and Australia as waste. And look at what has become of these places now, nicer in most repsects than England itself.
 
Last edited:

Div6

Crusader
Indeed.

There is a great tradition of railing against injustice


The etymology of the word "religion" has been debated for centuries.
From the Wikipedia entry:

... The English word clearly derives from the Latin religio, "reverence (for the gods)" or "conscientiousness". The origins of religio, however, are obscure. Proposed etymological interpretations include:

From Relego

* Re-reading–from Latin re (again) + lego (in the sense of "read"), referring to the repetition of scripture.
* Treating carefully–from Latin re (again) + lego (in the sense of "choose"–this was the interpretation of Cicero) "go over again" or "consider carefully".

From Religare

* Re-connection to the divine–from Latin re (again) + ligare (to connect, as in English ligament). This interpretation is favoured by modern scholars such as Tom Harpur, but was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.
* To bind or return to bondage–an alternate interpretation of the "reconnection" etymology emphasizing a sense of servitude to God, this may have originated with Augustine. However, the interpretation, while popular with critics of religion, is often considered imprecise and possibly offensive to followers.

From Res + legere

* Concerning a gathering — from Latin res (ablative re, with regard to) + legere (to gather), since organized religion revolves around a gathering of people.




While the "to bind or return to bondage" definition may seem offensive to some, it certainly seems to be a "core dramatization" of the aforementioned "justice terminals".

Literal fools.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
The RPF was another of LRH's ser facs TI! :D

That's "why".

So was overboarding, throwing kids into the achor hold, filming people being overboarded, etc. All LRH attempts to dominate others.

That's all they are.

And you rail against them because you are decent.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Really cool T.I. Thank you!!

And when was the last time DM did lower conditions? Uh, never, would be about right). And the RPF? Ha! Never for him. He is the perfect Holy God!!! Oh praise thee!!! And kiss thy feet!!!!!
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
Good post TI


In my opinion,COS can't be reformed.It's a totalitarian system and it will
fall apart to nothing over time.Sorry folks,if I sound like a broken record.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good post TI


In my opinion,COS can't be reformed.It's a totalitarian system and it will
fall apart to nothing over time.Sorry folks,if I sound like a broken record.

No need to apologise. And your experience with another totalitarian system is valuable in order to put Scn in context.

I am sure you are correct and that Scn will destroy itself eventually.

I think the job is to warn as many as possible, so they can avoid, if they wish to avoid it, the heartache of joining. And the other job is to try to salvage anything that might be worthwhile about all those years of research and application of the processes.
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
No need to apologise. And your experience with another totalitarian system is valuable in order to put Scn in context.

I am sure you are correct and that Scn will destroy itself eventually.

I think the job is to warn as many as possible, so they can avoid, if they wish to avoid it, the heartache of joining. And the other job is to try to salvage anything that might be worthwhile about all those years of research and application of the processes.


That's just it Lionheart.When you have spent alot of time ,money and
resources on a former soviet republic trying to help people and you
have had some past COS experience like myself,you feel a little obligated
to send the message about how you feel about totalitarian systems and
what they do to people over time.The similarities are different and in some
ways the same.but the soviet union made a mess of alot of countries
the same way COS made a complete mess of many peoples lives.That
is just my opinion.

I also have seen the way alot of people live in these countries and it concerns me how COS and other groups are sucking these people in.I guess if I sound like a crusader ,then so be it but reading the experiences here of people who gave the best years of their lives and so much of their money
and time.You want to warn as many people as you can.

thanks for the response
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Really cool T.I. Thank you!!

And when was the last time DM did lower conditions? Uh, never, would be about right). And the RPF? Ha! Never for him. He is the perfect Holy God!!! Oh praise thee!!! And kiss thy feet!!!!!

I remember him on "inspections". The uniform all loaded down with medals and chords and stripes I guess he bought in Hollywood at the uniform exchange. He would stomp hard when he walked and stood so tall with pride.
He always had half a dozen escorts surrounding him in glory, either CMO or the other Int Execs. They would march and stomp together as a crowd all full of the symbols. They were so proud and important, it was total theatre.
I guess for many or all of them it was the first or only time they were "heros" someplace, pounding around in the service Orgs.

The Dianetics was so easy. It just spread like wildfire across the U.S.. There were missions all over the place and in Mexico it just boomed. In the 70's there was word that Mexico would be the first clear country. Everyone was happy. I never saw anyone hit with ethics from 1972 until the finance police went to the missions in 1982. I just went to the mission one day and it was gone. In the small town of Manhattan (21 miles long) there was one org and two missions. The Org was for the middle classed. One mission was for the wealthy and the other for the hippies. Everyone got along with everyone. I was more or less raised by the Scientologists, as I came into the Org two weeks after I turned 16. Nobody was mean or punative and there were 300 students on the Dianetics course at the Org. If anyone was upset at all an auditor was sent to their home to help them. Nobody was asking for refunds getting comm eved or doing ethics conditions.

If they just could have kept the military and the "justice" out of the mix it all would have been just fine. Because it was all good before the military and "justice" hit all the people interested in study, philosophy, magick, the supernatural, and self improvment. It was like the soldiers coming in on the Tibetan Monks. For what? Who were the Scientologists hurting?

Hubbard said man cannot be trusted with justice, and then he put the "justice" right into their hats.

I watched Scientology boom over 10 years in my City and dissapear almost altogether for except for one empty org, in less than 12 months. As soon as the militia arrived with "justice".

All so one young man could stomp around on the breezways at the FSO, loaded down with medals from a uniform exchange in Hollywood and be proud.
How just is that?

See, once you start dealing in the black magic you suck it right down in on top of you. You validate it for one minute as useful, and the next thing you know you are in the hall of mirrors.

I see the "justice" floating around in this arena as nothing but black magic.

So, does DM think with ethics, the greatest good for the greatest number?

If I have to know him by his actions , I would say not.

We got to see it all, and what fascinating theatre it has been. Some of us even got to work as extra's and see behind the curtain. What an adventure!
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good post TI


In my opinion,COS can't be reformed.It's a totalitarian system and it will
fall apart to nothing over time.Sorry folks,if I sound like a broken record.

I think the Sea Org is set up as a communism. Nobody ownes anything, all pay is equal (except for DM). Even worse than a communism, people are ordered where to live issued uniform clothing and are forbidden to have. At least in communist countries people can choose their clothing, who they marry, what they eat and what they own if they can be resourceful.

The church can only change as DM changes, he is the legal owner.

There is a chance as he grows older he can become wiser and more sane. Sure, this whole thing could turn around 100% in a month.

But will it? I don't think so. Now that they are changing text in the books, I mean, they are taking the Scientology away from themselves, I think the whole thing is southern bound. It's a police force for all intensive purposes.

Will the subject of Scientology and the research and information dissapear too?

Never.

The Freezone is spreading like wildfire across the dinner tables in Russia, Hungary, Swtizerland, England, the U.S. ofA. and a dozen other zones I can think of and you probably can too.

This whole theatre has only been a study interuppted. Did Buddhism die because of the original attempts to destroy it? Did the Catholics die because of the Spanish Inquisition? Did the Christains die because Jesus was executed as a criminal? Did the Jews die because of..let's not even go there.
Will Scientology die because of DM and the Sea Org? No way! These are just growing pains!

No matter how I behave, I am still here.

No matter how you behave, you are still here.

That we elect to behave well and in a creative manner is testimony that we are positive influences.

No matter how people behave, thetans persist.

Scientology is a curiosity. People are curious.
 
Last edited:

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
The church can only change as DM changes, he is the legal owner.

*How* is David Miscavige the 'legal owner' of the 'Church' of Scientology?

I doubt if he *legally* owns the clothes he wears (including the sailor suits and tuxes.)

Is there any foundation for this?

I don't doubt that he's managed to funnel off 'Church' monies to personally controlled accounts, but, they would be anonymous and, he would not 'legally' own them.

He's the 'Chairman of the Board' of the 'Religious Technology Center'; not the 'owner'.

He doesn't *own* diddley, (except, of course, what's he's *stolen*.)

Zinj
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
And the truth is, "justice" is the glue that holds us all together here on this planet.

"Justice" is what is keeping a lot of people trapped in that situation called Sea Org.

"Justice" is why the Sea Org members do not demand sleep food pay auditing or study.

"Justice" is why nobody stands up to the Int Execs.

"Justice" is why nobody complains in the Church.

"Justice" is what DM doles out every time he does an inspection.

He just restimulates the hell out of everybody. "Justice" is a huge restimulator. It is why we are all here in prison.

"Justice" may be the biggest button on a person's case and have you noticed it is not on the CC course or OT2 as an item?

"Justice" is what people use to restimulate others in this game.

Less than 1% of the population on this planet is doing anything wrong at all.

Think about it.
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
*How* is David Miscavige the 'legal owner' of the 'Church' of Scientology?

I doubt if he *legally* owns the clothes he wears (including the sailor suits and tuxes.)

Is there any foundation for this?

I don't doubt that he's managed to funnel off 'Church' monies to personally controlled accounts, but, they would be anonymous and, he would not 'legally' own them.

He's the 'Chairman of the Board' of the 'Religious Technology Center'; not the 'owner'.

He doesn't *own* diddley, (except, of course, what's he's *stolen*.)

Zinj


I get the impression from this that you have not been permitted to read anything on the internet about the Church of Scientology.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I get the impression from this that you have not been permitted to read anything on the internet about the Church of Scientology.

Heh.

I suspect that the only 'pink slip' Davey owns is the one he may or may not put on when his friend Tommy comes calling at Int Base.

*That* may not be in the name of one of the various Scientology corporate shells.

Zinj
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Heh.

I suspect that the only 'pink slip' Davey owns is the one he may or may not put on when his friend Tommy comes calling at Int Base.

*That* may not be in the name of one of the various Scientology corporate shells.

Zinj

"Take your time.
Think a lot.
Think of all the things you've got
for you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not".

Cat Stevens
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
"Take your time.
Think a lot.
Think of all the things you've got
for you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not".

Cat Stevens

Around the fences facing 'freedom'
muzzles towards the acolytes
trapped within

Trapped within the razor wire
Trapped by hope and wish and fire
Trapped by promise trick desire
Trapped by one now rotting liar

Trapped by their own memory and dream

- Zinjifar
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I remember him on "inspections". The uniform all loaded down with medals and chords and stripes I guess he bought in Hollywood at the uniform exchange. He would stomp hard when he walked and stood so tall with pride.
He always had half a dozen escorts surrounding him in glory, either CMO or the other Int Execs. They would march and stomp together as a crowd all full of the symbols. They were so proud and important, it was total theatre.
I guess for many or all of them it was the first or only time they were "heros" someplace, pounding around in the service Orgs.

The Dianetics was so easy. It just spread like wildfire across the U.S.. There were missions all over the place and in Mexico it just boomed. In the 70's there was word that Mexico would be the first clear country. Everyone was happy. I never saw anyone hit with ethics from 1972 until the finance police went to the missions in 1982. I just went to the mission one day and it was gone. In the small town of Manhattan (21 miles long) there was one org and two missions. The Org was for the middle classed. One mission was for the wealthy and the other for the hippies. Everyone got along with everyone. I was more or less raised by the Scientologists, as I came into the Org two weeks after I turned 16. Nobody was mean or punative and there were 300 students on the Dianetics course at the Org. If anyone was upset at all an auditor was sent to their home to help them. Nobody was asking for refunds getting comm eved or doing ethics conditions.

If they just could have kept the military and the "justice" out of the mix it all would have been just fine. Because it was all good before the military and "justice" hit all the people interested in study, philosophy, magick, the supernatural, and self improvment. It was like the soldiers coming in on the Tibetan Monks. For what? Who were the Scientologists hurting?

Hubbard said man cannot be trusted with justice, and then he put the "justice" right into their hats.

I watched Scientology boom over 10 years in my City and dissapear almost altogether for except for one empty org, in less than 12 months. As soon as the militia arrived with "justice".

All so one young man could stomp around on the breezways at the FSO, loaded down with medals from a uniform exchange in Hollywood and be proud.
How just is that?

See, once you start dealing in the black magic you suck it right down in on top of you. You validate it for one minute as useful, and the next thing you know you are in the hall of mirrors.

I see the "justice" floating around in this arena as nothing but black magic.

So, does DM think with ethics, the greatest good for the greatest number?

If I have to know him by his actions , I would say not.

We got to see it all, and what fascinating theatre it has been. Some of us even got to work as extra's and see behind the curtain. What an adventure!

TI, I respect you and your experience, but I have to say my experience from those 1970's days is very different to yours.

It is true that I saw Scn flourish in Missions but I didn't see that in orgs, or St Hill. And public sent from Missions to orgs and AO's generally got messed up and undid the good work of the Missions.

You say " I never saw anyone hit with ethics from 1972 until the finance police went to the missions in 1982" Well I don't know where you were or where you were looking, but I saw hundreds of people hit with ethics in those years, maybe even thousands! If you mean you never saw any in Missions, well it is true they were generally left alone by heavy SO ethics.

The military enforcement and justice did not start with David Miscavage. As a practitioner of Scn I am sure you understand the importance of viewing as exactly as possible.

The military enforcement and justice started on the ships in 1968. LRH sent SO missions in naval unifroms out to the AO's, SO's, orgs and even Missions from that time onwards.

In my time in the 1970s in the UK it was common to see SO uniformed missions, common to see military-style injustices masquerading as justice. Common to see people busted off post by SO missions led by the likes of Capt. Bill and Alex Sibersky. Common to see SO missions throw people from outer orgs and St Hill onto the RPF at St Hill, under LRH's command.

Within my first two days at an org, when I joined in 1970, an SO mission arrived in naval uniform, scaring the beejeebas out of me who thought from the aesthetic posters on the walls that the "Sea Org" must be some sort of keyed-out theta pool where all was well and divine! (naive I know, but I'd only read LRH's promises in DMSMH and FOT)

Those two Uniformed Missionaires busted people off post under direct authority of "Source". The first clear I ever met, who'd worked with Ron and was Clear number (single figure under 10) was declared a Suppressive Person!

Did you really mean to suggest that before Miscavage, the SO did not pose around in uniforms, did not dispense "justice" at a stroke?

When the RTC busted the Missions in the 80's it was obvious to me they were simply carrying on the tradition started and enforced by Ron over a decade earlier.

Exactness of fact and observation is required in order to understand the today insane justice of the CofS.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
I heard a story about a current ASHO staff member, who has been around since the 70's. I think his name is Allan, but I can't be sure.

A mission was sent into the org he was in to handle the stats. This was in the 70's sometime. That mission decided to declare Allan SP, and so he was shipped off. A few months later, the stats crashed and LRH checked out what the mission did, and decided that it was incorrect to declare Allan. So he was brought back in. A few years later, another mission went in and declared him again! And off he went. And again the stats crashed and LRH undeclared him and put him back on post. A couple years later another mission was going in, and LRH was reading the mission orders. He added a target: "Dont declare Allan!".

Was funny at the time. But I dont know how he put up with it! He is still there on post as of 2004 as a sup I beleive. (Sorry I am really bad with names and Allan might not be his real name).
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
I think the Sea Org is set up as a communism. Nobody ownes anything, all pay is equal (except for DM). Even worse than a communism, people are ordered where to live issued uniform clothing and are forbidden to have. At least in communist countries people can choose their clothing, who they marry, what they eat and what they own if they can be resourceful.

The church can only change as DM changes, he is the legal owner.

There is a chance as he grows older he can become wiser and more sane. Sure, this whole thing could turn around 100% in a month.

But will it? I don't think so. Now that they are changing text in the books, I mean, they are taking the Scientology away from themselves, I think the whole thing is southern bound. It's a police force for all intensive purposes.

Will the subject of Scientology and the research and information dissapear too?

Never.

The Freezone is spreading like wildfire across the dinner tables in Russia, Hungary, Swtizerland, England, the U.S. ofA. and a dozen other zones I can think of and you probably can too.

This whole theatre has only been a study interuppted. Did Buddhism die because of the original attempts to destroy it? Did the Catholics die because of the Spanish Inquisition? Did the Christains die because Jesus was executed as a criminal? Did the Jews die because of..let's not even go there.
Will Scientology die because of DM and the Sea Org? No way! These are just growing pains!

No matter how I behave, I am still here.

No matter how you behave, you are still here.

That we elect to behave well and in a creative manner is testimony that we are positive influences.

No matter how people behave, thetans persist.

Scientology is a curiosity. People are curious.

Scientology is also expedited and marketed in some ways, no differently
than other products from the west.There is still some belief in alot of the former soviet union(at least from my experience with Lithuania) that the west
holds better answers and solutions to problems.So in that respect I could
see how Scientology could gain popularity just as much as any other practice,
philosophy or religion.It offers some readily available solutions to everyday problems.It presents itself as a very certain philosophy or body of knowlege.

What it is in reality,perhaps is something different.

In the sense that new ideas are being allowed with other ideas and being
presented in a way that a person can engage in these activities from
a relatively safe standpoint as a consumer I would agree that a person
should be able to practice Scientology just as much as say,Yoga,
Eastern religions,Islam...Karate..whatever.

The problem is when you allow groups that have a history of abuses or
cult type behavior.Where exactly do you draw the line?Especially when
there is enough information in the west on these groups and their history?

Freezone seems ok on the surface but is it a mixed bag of individuals and
groups that are too indoctrinated by LRH and his writings to the point
they are operating like COS does?How are these individuals interacting
and engaging with people in these societies?

Also in the former soviet union you have very much a "a man is an island"
mentality where people are taking and grabbing as much as they can.
Make as much money as quickly as possible and build your own castle.
Could outside groups from the west like COS,Freezone,Landmark,not to
mention others take advantage of this?

Taking money through consulting ,auditing,seminars.etc.There are many incentives to getting involved with
these groups ,especially if people stand to gain profit from it.

Over time ,how much do this collectively benefit these societies as a whole?

Especially when a great majority are struggling to get through day to day life
and survive and making tough decisions or even decisions they never had to
before.Surviving the transition from communism to capitalism has been very
difficult for many,including my own family and people I have talked to.

In the end are these groups exploiting people no differently than a large
multinational corporation or foreign investor or even a wealthy oligarch
or former Apparatchik?

When does curiousity or thrist for new ideas ,beneficial information,etc.
cross the line of exploitation in these countries?

Shouldn't people also be educated on the origins of these groups and their
history as well?

Is a wildfire out of control ,exactly that? or is it a beginning of a movement
of ideas that may benefit these societies over time?

Does the west have a certain responsibility to aid or assist in socieities
that were cut off essentially from free flow of information for decades?

These are all legitimate arguments and I'm sure there are more from both
sides.It's worthy of a good debate.

Not to rain on anybodies parade,only that I (and I'm sure others here
and at other forums) have visited these countries and see the way people live. and not just exclusive to former soviet countries but third world countries as well where there is abject poverty and hardships.

Alot of these people have been through the wringer in life so where should
the responsibility and awareness come in?Should one try to understand
anothers hardships and difficulties or be sanitized from it?

in regards to the soviet union and what you owned TI alot was your
standing with the communist party and who you knew.Some people
were allowed to keep property and some were packed in like rats in
small apartments.least from my understanding.It wasn't all cruel
and bad but the restrictions and repercussions for certain actions
could be severe.It's really a whole discussion in itself.

The soviet union should serve as a reminder and a lesson of what happens
when an ideology goes to far.What starts out as a renaissance(alot of communists in the beginning thought very utopian) can later become a genocide,inquisition,a totalitarian nightmare.......

take your pick


It's interesting on OCMB,they have a topic called"Did you think Scientology was It?"...

My great-grandfather thought communism was "It" and would revolutionize the disinfranchised
and destitute.His favorite book was the Jungle by Upton Sinclair because he had worked in a slaughterhouse
as well.

Many years later people still feel like him and many feel the same about Capitalism.

So is Scientology just another set of utopian ideas,nonsense,science-fiction wonderment and fascination,
what we could be?...is it just another ideology that appeals to a curious or deprived group??
 
Last edited:
Top